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Gun Law Debate: Please keep posts civil and conversational


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#21 jim mk2

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 17:40 PM

We must be a nation of poor shots then..... http://www.telegraph...-every-day.html


Dated 2008. You're living in the past as always.

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#22 LeChuck

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 17:43 PM

Gun sales soar in Colorado.

So, according to some, that's a good thing...right?

It's not difficult to see why a lot of the world are anti-American. I'm not one of them at all, but it's an incredibly frustrating and confused place sometimes.

Edited by LeChuck, 25 July 2012 - 17:43 PM.


#23 jim mk2

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 17:46 PM

I have to say I love visiting the US but some of their "values" are confused to say the least. The gun culture and death penalty are two reasons why much as I like the US I could never live there.

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#24 SIMON GARNERS 194

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 21:44 PM

Your typical 'one stop gun shop'......Heckler and Koch MP5SD your's for just £323.

http://www.davidsons...one&sight_class_


Have a nice day folks! :unsure:

Edited by SIMON GARNERS 194, 25 July 2012 - 21:46 PM.

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#25 Rovermatt

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 22:45 PM

British gun violence is not unheard of unfortunately.

In spite of my opposition to the death penalty, the piece of sh*t at the centre of this case deserves to ride the lightning quite frankly.*



*Mods, perhaps you could move this to one of the old crime control topics that I can't seem to find...
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#26 naperrover

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 18:34 PM

This rifle is more pricy but still looks like fun from the same store. (Add another $1000 for decent sights)

http://www.davidsons...ec=50&item_num=


An example of the problem. This weapon chambers .50 caliber Browning Machine Gun ammunition and is a similar weapon to those used by US special forces snipers as an "anti-materiel weapon." In other words it has the power to disable vehicles, usually by cracking the engine block. What civilian actually NEEDS this kind of firepower?

#27 thenodrog

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 10:55 AM

An example of the problem. This weapon chambers .50 caliber Browning Machine Gun ammunition and is a similar weapon to those used by US special forces snipers as an "anti-materiel weapon." In other words it has the power to disable vehicles, usually by cracking the engine block. What civilian actually NEEDS this kind of firepower?

Me! When d1ckheads with massive speakers and base units in their cars drive by with the volume full up and the windows down! (Why do so many empty heads do that?) If they like the music literally deafening, as they are almost certainly destined to discover in later life, then opening the windows lets the sound out. As far as I am concerned they should be prosecuted at every opportunity for noise pollution.
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#28 colin

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 22:13 PM

I was at a BBQ in Washington State (Richland) last month.

The guy got out his gun collection which was over 50+ ( I have seen similar in the States on a number of occasions) and the 8 of us had a bit of fun shooting dingoes and other assorted wildlife. The guy also had 2 concealed guns in his house, one in his car glove box and one on his body.


You shot a dingo from Washington State? That must be one hell of a gun you were using.

(with apologies for otherwise trivialising this excellent discussion)

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#29 thenodrog

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 23:00 PM

.

Edited by thenodrog, 01 August 2012 - 23:01 PM.

Those whom the Gods seek to destroy they first make mad.....

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#30 purplegrover

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 00:20 AM

You shot a dingo from Washington State? That must be one hell of a gun you were using.

(with apologies for otherwise trivialising this excellent discussion)

Indeed. 10000 mile range with a scope to match ? Now thats firepower !

#31 cletus

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 07:48 AM

I`m glad there`s no 'buy over the counter guns' in this country. Quite a few years ago i 'lost the plot' & very nearly went after somebody who had wronged me. If i`d had access to one i would have killed him without hesitation.....& been banged up for it.

It was pure heat of the moment red mist stuff. Now i look back & see how trivial everything was & am grateful i didn`t have easy access to a weapon.
I wonder how many people who actually committed 'heat of the moment' gun crimes regret their actions? :huh:
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#32 Steve Moss

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 18:28 PM

For those who lack familiarity with firearms:

http://online.wsj.co...cleTabs=article

Amongst many other statements, I think this one was telling:

"Mr. Bloomberg's claims about guns are mere hypotheticals, apparently based on guesses and little knowledge of what happens in real life. He also uses inaccurate, scaremongering terminology that suggests he doesn't even understand how guns operate.

He seems to dismiss the idea of letting people defend themselves when he speculates that if concealed-handgun permit holders had been present at the Colorado attack, the crossfire between permit holders and the killer would have been even worse than the mass shooting itself. But we have the evidence of multiple occasions when mass shootings were prevented by civilians.

One incident took place at the New Life Church in Colorado Springs in December 2007. There were 7,000 people inside when an armed man came on the church's property and began shooting, killing two people and wounding others. What stopped him was a parishioner who had permission to carry her permitted concealed weapon on church property. Despite this and other incidents—preventing shootings in schools, a mall and other public places—there is no case on record of a permit holder accidentally shooting a bystander."

Edited by Steve Moss, 02 August 2012 - 18:29 PM.

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#33 Baz

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 20:25 PM

http://www.theatlant...-deaths/260189/

No guns equals no gun crime.

If you seriously restrict access to guns, you get less gun crime.

The example above from Steve Moss is the classic problem of not dealing with the issue, just concentrating on the outcomes. If the assailant had no gun, the defendant wouldn't have needed one either.

Edited by Baz, 02 August 2012 - 20:26 PM.

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#34 Steve Moss

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 04:53 AM

No guns equals no gun crime.

If you seriously restrict access to guns, you get less gun crime.

The example above from Steve Moss is the classic problem of not dealing with the issue, just concentrating on the outcomes. If the assailant had no gun, the defendant wouldn't have needed one either.


So in the name of eliminating gun crime we should give up our freedom to own, possess and carry a firearm?

Using the same logic, in order to eliminate driving under the influence crimes we should eliminate motor vehicles and/or alcohol.

I decline to accept the proposition that I and other law abiding citizens must give up our civil liberties in response to the criminal behaviors of others.

"At a football club, there's a holy trinity - the players, the manager and the supporters. Directors don't come into it. They are only there to sign the checks." Bill Shankly


#35 LeChuck

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 07:39 AM

Using the same logic, in order to eliminate driving under the influence crimes we should eliminate motor vehicles and/or alcohol.

How is that logic?

The only intention of owning a gun is to fire it at someone/something. There is no other reason for owning a gun. People own vehicles and drink alcohol for MANY other reasons than trying to injure people.

By your logic, a world where every country can own nuclear weapons as a deterrent is a safer one than a world where nuclear weapons are prohibited.

As with most irrational human behaviour, it is entirely based on fear, but it's much easier to hide behind phrases like "civil liberties".

Out of interest, where do you stand on drug legislation? Surely anyone who believes in right to own a gun believes in the right to freely take drugs?

#36 jim mk2

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 08:16 AM

So in the name of eliminating gun crime we should give up our freedom to own, possess and carry a firearm?

Using the same logic, in order to eliminate driving under the influence crimes we should eliminate motor vehicles and/or alcohol.

I decline to accept the proposition that I and other law abiding citizens must give up our civil liberties in response to the criminal behaviors of others.


US foreign policy is to prevent Iran having nuclear weapons. Isn't that an infringement of Iran's civil liberties too ?


What's the difference between yoghurt and Australians ? At least yoghurt starts with a little culture.
 


#37 Steve Moss

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 13:15 PM

Out of interest, where do you stand on drug legislation? Surely anyone who believes in right to own a gun believes in the right to freely take drugs?


The War on Drugs as currently enacted results in wide spread violation of individual rights (erroneous no knock raids, mistaken shootings, etc) and is wildly ineffective. It needs to be re-evaluated and its focus changed to education and rehabilitation. The current policy of prohibition and incarceration is both ineffective and wrong.

US foreign policy is to prevent Iran having nuclear weapons. Isn't that an infringement of Iran's civil liberties too ?


Jim I understand our personal political philosophies are in opposition, but surely you would agree that it is individual people who have civil liberties not governments?

Governments have power, legal and otherwise, which it is supposed to use to promote the alleged common good (which it achieves with mixed results).

Government obtains its power by reducing the civil liberties of those governed. The more powerful the government, the fewer freedoms possessed by the populace.

Are we on the same page as to this basic issue? Or are we speaking different languages?

Long story short, I'm not weeping for Iran.

"At a football club, there's a holy trinity - the players, the manager and the supporters. Directors don't come into it. They are only there to sign the checks." Bill Shankly


#38 thenodrog

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 14:11 PM

No guns equals no gun crime.

If you seriously restrict access to guns, you get less gun crime.

The example above from Steve Moss is the classic problem of not dealing with the issue, just concentrating on the outcomes. If the assailant had no gun, the defendant wouldn't have needed one either.


Laws are worse than useless unless they are enforceable Baz.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...eyside-19074694
Those whom the Gods seek to destroy they first make mad.....

:goal:

#39 Baz

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 18:41 PM

Laws are worse than useless unless they are enforceable Baz.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...eyside-19074694


Not worse than useless, but In principle I take the point.

Steve, As for infringing civil liberties, the link I provided shows how it can be achieved without denying civil liberties, with proven results. Look at the stats, Japan has 11 per year, USA tens of thousands. The Japanese just have very strong enforcement of their laws. If the people of the USA had the same will, they could get similar results. They don't, so they won't. The ONLY valid argument I have heard for private gun ownership is for hunting, the Japanese model takes that into account.

I honestly don't understand why you don't agree that less guns equals less gun crime. I'm really interested in why you don't agree.

I think others have already shredded your point about drink driving.
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#40 Audax

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 19:32 PM

Don't really want to get involved in the talk here but today at a Sikh Religious Temple in Wisconsin near Milwaukee, a gunman went on a rampage. The gunman shot dead, 6 others dead... at this very early point in time, this is what I've heard....




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