[Archived] Bash the Nurses Thread...

[joey_big_nose]

And don't try and tell me that a nursing degree is a proper degree. How many intelligent nurses have you net? It's hardly like reading classics at Oxford is it.

Im not really sure reading Classics at Oxford is much of a preparation for anything really. Many great minds have done it but outside of the areas of fiction, history or philosophy it has little value beyond rudimentary analysis and provision of anecdotes for dinner party conversation. It's more an exercise of interest than something that furnishes useful skills. If you gave me a toss up between a qulified Nurse or a Classics graduate to be responsible for my ailing mother it would certianly be the former. Increasingly areas where a Classics graduates might have got a job are being put under serious pressure. In the City for example there is a massive influx of Physics and Economics graduates. Why? Because their skills are applicable.

Anyhow, what I find absolutely astonishing is that you have bemoaned the downfall of great Britian into an anti-authoritarian, whinging, unruly and selfish society in the past yet consistently seem adopt a position that incorporates all those qualities just on a more monied level. A rolls royce chav if you will. It is absolutely daft.

If you want people to behave decently then you have to incorporate it into the way you handle yourself.

[SouthAussieRover]

A bad day at the office in Stoke on Trent, Chesh?

[SouthAussieRover]

Some nurses do a good job and some bad but there can be doubt that they have been extremely well treated by the taxpayer in recent years ( particularly in regards to pensions compared with the wealth creating section of society). As for this garbage about the private sector having higher wages than the public, that situation changed some time back.

From a previous thread.

nurses - like doctors - have enjoyed large above-inflation pay deals in recent years. If their leaders think the public will back strike action now, they're wrong. One reason is that while private-sector pensions are crumbling, public sector workers can still join generous final salary schemes.

Last week, ministers sneaked out figures showing the future total cost of NHS pensions up from £104bn two years ago, to £166bn now. Every penny of this huge sum will have to be met by taxpayers. So, as private sector pensions are crushed - and average private sector wages are below pay in the public sector - striking nurses won't win the battle for hearts and minds.

Nurses pay

What are you harping on about pensions for?

They are off no benefit for (hopefully) a long time.

It's the weekly salary and terms and conditions that are more of an issue on a daily basis.

[blue phil]

It's the weekly salary and terms and conditions that are more of an issue on a daily basis.

....and out of that weekly salary they should fund their own pensions .

[blue phil]

And the "scum" should refuse to treat you next time you have raging toothache .

But they won't , jimbo .......because they're greedy scum . No question of a "vocation" with that lot - money is the only motivation . And guess what ....the more they f$ck peoples teeth up , the more they get paid ......

[Wiggy]

What are you harping on about pensions for?

Well, I would have thought that was pretty obvious. The majority of the rest of the workforce have to fund their own pensions and life insurance. Those working for the NHS don't. It's estimated that it costs a third as much again to fund a nurse's pension, with regard to her salary ( by the way actuaries worked out that a WPC costs 75% of her salary in pensions costs!).

Therefore,

With nurses in Scotland earning an average of £30,500, they can expect to be £183 better off this year than their colleagues south of the border

NURSES PAY

that takes the average nurses remuneration to approximately £ 40,000 or getting on for twice the average wage.

I would think that any employer ( us) would be harping on to their finance director as to whether this was fair and affordable. I'm sure Gordon Brown knows it's more than fair and pretty sure he can't afford it.

[FourLaneBlue]

One thing which does get my goat on this subject is the money we invest in training nurses and then fail to offer jobs to the newly-qualified. This is not a rant against Australia or those who chose to emigrate. However there are Australian hospitals carrying out wholesale poaching of recently-qualified nursing staff from the UK. In October 2006 Cairns hospital launched an advertising campaign in Stoke-on-Trent, recruiting 84 qualified and recently qualified nurses (the entire intake of one traing year), all on pay some 15-20% better than the UK. Other Australian hospitals have made clear they have similar intentions, indeed one Sydney hospital is 80% staffed by immigrant nurses. Again I have no problem with Australia, Australians or anyone who wishes to emigrate but it is scandalous the UK tax payer is funding four years of training only for these students to pack their bags and leave the country without in some way repaying or compensating the UK tax payer for the substantial investment made in their futures.

That's not scandalous at all. We'd do it to them.

What is truly scandalous is that the UK uses these very tactics to pillage the best and brightest from third world countries around the world. These countries suffer greatly by this deprivation as, unlike the UK, they can't tempt qualified staff so easily to replace them. In fact usually they just have to go without.

I do however agree with your point that if the UK paid their own nurses better they may not have to pilfer the qualified medical staff from far more needy nations. However if there is any scandal in this it isn't coming from Australia poaching UK teachers but where the UK goes looking.

While not agreeing fully with thenodrog's rant (and he can rant for England) he made a good point that many other workers in this country work just as had and selflessly as nurses without receiving the same positive publicity that nurses have received as angels ever since the Crimean War.

Do we need nurses more than street cleaners, entrepreneurs, garbage collectors, volunteers, drivers, accountants, teachers, counselors, vets etc etc. No. So when are those lot going to receive similar recognition? No...we need them all to keep the country running and not all them receive decent pay.

While I support this initiative to help nurses I just wonder when all the other deserving workers of this country receive similar attention.

[thenodrog]

What are you harping on about pensions for?

They are off no benefit for (hopefully) a long time.

It's the weekly salary and terms and conditions that are more of an issue on a daily basis.

Naive post in the extreme.

[thenodrog]

There are plenty of myths about Public Sector pensions, and as for pay - I work in HE, and for my equivalent post in the private sector I would be on circa 10k more. But I choose to get paid less and get an extra week off work.

Note - Im not complaining, I made the choice.

1. Whats HE?

2. 10K for an extra one weeks work! imo that would represent quite some overtime rate wouldn't it?

Job security / pension / conditions / location ....... whatever there must be more to it than you make out.

[stuwilky]

1. Whats HE?

2. 10K for an extra one weeks work! imo that would represent quite some overtime rate wouldn't it?

Job security / pension / conditions / location ....... whatever there must be more to it than you make out.

1. Higher Education Gordo - y'know Universities and what have you.

2.

Job Security? Not really

Pension? Been as fcuked about with as private sector stuff, none guarantee, contributory

Conditions? Nowt overly unusual - flexi time, 50% off courses if agreed as staff development

Location? I live next to the West Coast main line and next to the M6/M61 and M65 (well within a mile of them)

To be fair, its an extra two weeks - I get Christmas off as well as 30 days leave.

[BlueMonday]

Im not really sure reading Classics at Oxford is much of a preparation for anything really. Many great minds have done it but outside of the areas of fiction, history or philosophy it has little value beyond rudimentary analysis and provision of anecdotes for dinner party conversation. It's more an exercise of interest than something that furnishes useful skills. If you gave me a toss up between a qulified Nurse or a Classics graduate to be responsible for my ailing mother it would certianly be the former. Increasingly areas where a Classics graduates might have got a job are being put under serious pressure. In the City for example there is a massive influx of Physics and Economics graduates. Why? Because their skills are applicable.

Anyhow, what I find absolutely astonishing is that you have bemoaned the downfall of great Britian into an anti-authoritarian, whinging, unruly and selfish society in the past yet consistently seem adopt a position that incorporates all those qualities just on a more monied level. A rolls royce chav if you will. It is absolutely daft.

If you want people to behave decently then you have to incorporate it into the way you handle yourself.

Thats what a Classic education and too much Port do to you!

[Paul]

With nurses in Scotland earning an average of £30,500, they can expect to be £183 better off this year than their colleagues south of the border

I don't know where that figure has come from but it's total rubbish. The average nurses pay is not £30,500pa. Take it from me I know very well how much a nurse of more than 30 years experience earns and it only just makes £30,000, so this cannot be the average.

FLB

I do however agree with your point that if the UK paid their own nurses better they may not have to pilfer the qualified medical staff from far more needy nations. However if there is any scandal in this it isn't coming from Australia poaching UK teachers but where the UK goes looking.

I agree, the scandal is we fail to offer or provide jobs once we have trained these people, then we pinch them from countries who need health workers while busy exporting our newly-qualified staff to Australia. Just to repeat I don;t have a problem with Australia. Are you all aware UK student nurses receive a bursary of £7200pa for four years? At a time when most students come out of university with £15-20,000 of debt we are busy paying people to train as nurses and then exporting them aroiund the world. Ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous......says the parent of a student nurse!

Paul, guess what happens here?

Adverts for nurse to go and work in Britain. Supposedly better pay and hours.

That's one sales and marketing job I wouldn't want

[SouthAussieRover]

Naive post in the extreme.

Why?

If you can't come up with a constructive response why bother replying?

[stuwilky]

Well, I would have thought that was pretty obvious. The majority of the rest of the workforce have to fund their own pensions and life insurance. Those working for the NHS don't.

I was under the impression they paid 6% of gross salary into the pension..... perhaps it isnt wholly member funded - but the do fund their own pensions.

[thenodrog]

Why?

If you can't come up with a constructive response why bother replying?

Cos Wiggy had already done that. You should ignore your prejudice and respond to him.

[SouthAussieRover]

Cos Wiggy had already done that. You should ignore your prejudice and respond to him.

Then don't bother chirping in for your buddy.

As to Wiggy I'd settle for an above inflation wage rise year on year say in line with those other public servants eg MPs.

I'd then choose to make my own contributions to a super scheme.Of course I'd like to retain the salary sacrificing scheme

I'd also propose that the NHS be reformed and private medical insurance be implemented for all those above a certain salary ceiling.

[pg]

The problem with the NHS lies within overpaid management who don't do their jobs properly.

I've only been living in England a short time, but from what I've seen I agree with this 100%.

I'm gobsmacked when I look at the jobs sections of the papers to find NHS administrator positions being advertised for 80,000 + pounds a year. How can they justify that sort of salary when they do not contribute at all the final outcome of healthcare?

Anywhere outside of London, that wage is just crazy.

The 'problem' with nurses is just a symptom of the overall problems with UK health. I know of many Aussie doctors who go to the UK for a year or two of extra training and most of them are horrified with regard to both the work ethics of the hospital staff (from the top down) and the standards of cleanliness throughout the wards. The first thing they usually do is to find other Commonwealth health workers (e.g. Kiwis, Saffers, Canadians) and stick together so that they know that they can rely on each other.

However, I'm sure that they way things are going down under, the public system in Australia will soon descend into a mess anyway.

In the end, as with anything in life. you get what you pay for. Use your migrant workers on five pounds an hour to clean your hospitals and you'll end up with infections galore.

Oh well, at least your hard-earned tax dollars are being used for good... such as replacing Trident at 32 billion dollars.

[thenodrog]

Oh well, at least your hard-earned tax dollars are being used for good... such as replacing Trident at 32 billion dollars.

Playing Devils Advocate pg ....... I guess that we'll never know the real answer but is it possible that nuclear weapons have prevented more unecesssary deaths than the NHS?

[Wiggy]

I don't know where that figure has come from but it's total rubbish. The average nurses pay is not £30,500pa. Take it from me I know very well how much a nurse of more than 30 years experience earns and it only just makes £30,000, so this cannot be the average.

/quote]

Well, as you see from the link, it comes from the main article, on the front page, of the best selling broadsheet in the UK. Now I know that you can't believe everything you read in the papers but if this was widely inaccurate wouldn't the Royal College of Nursing be jumping all over it? Guess what? Not a sound from them.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

Surely this should be bash the GP’s thread, if you want to see a sector of the NHS which are overpaid its GPS and management. Under Labour the UK GP has become on average the highest paid in Europe above countries whose GP base have better technical training and nations with a higher cost of living. I think the figure is over £90,000. And yes whilst they have a tough stressful job they should be paid in line with GP’s from other similar nations

[stuwilky]

Well, as you see from the link, it comes from the main article, on the front page, of the best selling broadsheet in the UK. Now I know that you can't believe everything you read in the papers but if this was widely inaccurate wouldn't the Royal College of Nursing be jumping all over it? Guess what? Not a sound from them.

It depends on what they have defined as a "nurse"

Some statistics include management posts under a technicality brough about by "Agenda for Change"

The average salary for a staff nurse in 2005 was £26k

The average salary for an "E" grade nurse is 2005 was £21k

Those averages include staff who receive geographical payments.

[stuwilky]

Surely this should be bash the GP’s thread, if you want to see a sector of the NHS which are overpaid its GPS and management. Under Labour the UK GP has become on average the highest paid in Europe above countries whose GP base have better technical training and nations with a higher cost of living. I think the figure is over £90,000. And yes whilst they have a tough stressful job they should be paid in line with GP’s from other similar nations

I think the figure is closer now to £110k, due to a change in the way the contracts were negotiated a few years ago if I remember correctly - something to do with that Hewitt women failing to put a cap on the profits paid by the practice rather than reinvested.

Not 100% though.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

I think the figure is closer now to £110k, due to a change in the way the contracts were negotiated a few years ago if I remember correctly - something to do with that Hewitt women failing to put a cap on the profits paid by the practice rather than reinvested.

Not 100% though.

I think youre prob right with youre figure, they had work taken away from ( admin etc ) given a rise, then had the work given back to them, asked for another rise and got it. So they have had a 25% rise due to extra work, work they were originally doing before there original rise crazy

[Wiggy]

I think youre prob right with youre figure, they had work taken away from ( admin etc ) given a rise, then had the work given back to them, asked for another rise and got it. So they have had a 25% rise due to extra work, work they were originally doing before there original rise crazy

That's right. The negotiators for the BMA said they couldn't believe what they were being offered. Far, far more than their opening gambit. My own GP still can't believe it. This is where a large part of the umpteen billions poured into an unreformed NHS has gone. Now, after unprecedented funding, jobs and services are being lost. Criminal incompetence by this administration.

[Cheshireblue]

Im not really sure reading Classics at Oxford is much of a preparation for anything really. Many great minds have done it but outside of the areas of fiction, history or philosophy it has little value beyond rudimentary analysis and provision of anecdotes for dinner party conversation. It's more an exercise of interest than something that furnishes useful skills. If you gave me a toss up between a qulified Nurse or a Classics graduate to be responsible for my ailing mother it would certianly be the former. Increasingly areas where a Classics graduates might have got a job are being put under serious pressure. In the City for example there is a massive influx of Physics and Economics graduates. Why? Because their skills are applicable.

Anyhow, what I find absolutely astonishing is that you have bemoaned the downfall of great Britian into an anti-authoritarian, whinging, unruly and selfish society in the past yet consistently seem adopt a position that incorporates all those qualities just on a more monied level. A rolls royce chav if you will. It is absolutely daft.

If you want people to behave decently then you have to incorporate it into the way you handle yourself.

What on earth are you crapping on about? Are you deliberately being obtuse or are you reading a nursing degree?

My point was that somebody was trying to tell me that being a nurse was a difficult job to qualify for and that they were highly trained, and that this simply not true. A nursing "degree" could be obtained by the most retarded of individuals and is "studied" whilst you are being trained. I say this because a old friend of mine's wife is now a nurse and believe me, she has a poor IQ for a glass of water. Not a single GCSE above a "C" yet is now a graduate.

As for your mindless twaddle about classics, nobody ever claimed that it was a providing you with useful tools to get a job. That is the purpose of vocational courses, once the preserve of polytechnics. Degrees are an academic exercise designed to improve your mind and to train you into ways of thinking and proccessing information, none more so than a classics degree.

If you want to learn skills that get you a job, that's fine. To suggest that Oxbridge graduates with Classics degrees are struggling to gain empoyment is laughable.

And as for your psycho analytical babble, my position is consistent and clear. Individuals should take account of their own situations and be responsible for their actions and omissions. If you are in a low paid job, then get a better paying job. For any nurse to moan that they are underpaid is risible. Is this a great surprise to them? Have they suddenly received a 50% pay cut? Of course not.

They entered the job with their eyes open. If they were brighter and better skilled they would be GP's, and don't even get me started on them.

Whatever yo are paid to do, do it to the best of your ability. From road sweeper to brain surgeon, that is my philosophy. If you get it wrong, you should get a rollocking. That does not happen with nurses, or indeed any other healthcare professionals as they are over protected by their regulatory bodies.