[Archived] Postal Dispute

[Jimbo]

Once upon a time this country used to have a fairly decent infrastructure - not perfect, but pretty good. Where nationalised industries like the Post Office used its more profitable arms, like Parcel Force and the telephone network to subsidise other less profitable arms Royal Mail delivery and the Post Offices by which we all benefited.

Then the politicians saw that these more profitable part of the organisation could be sold off to their mates at a knock off price, generate a temporary blip in the balance of payments that would allow for short term spending and make them look like they were tackling inefficiency in the system. They then did this again for the Gas supply, National Grid, Water and Railways.

Now we have a decidily third world infrastructure that is completely on it's ar$e and this country really is rapidly becoming a not very pleasant place to live

[ABBEY]

spot on jimbo spot on..who privatised everything tho?

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

A bit miffed with this country at the moment

Many,many millions agree the same Alan.

[thenodrog]

spot on jimbo spot on..who privatised everything tho?

Well I seem to rem that it was the Tories under Mrs Thatcher. I also remember that the Lab opposition were strident in their outraged condemnation, criticisms and multiple promises to restore em.

But after 10 years in power and supported by a huge commons majority I have not noticed them re-creating any. Surely they weren't blatantly lying to the nation were they?

Tossers the lot of em.

[stuwilky]

Well I seem to rem that it was the Tories under Mrs Thatcher. I also remember that the Lab opposition were strident in their outraged condemnation, criticisms and multiple promises to restore em.

But after 10 years in power and supported by a huge commons majority I have not noticed them re-creating any. Surely they weren't blatantly lying to the nation were they?

Tossers the lot of em.

You would like to pay more tax to renationaise things Gordo?

Nice work, I would as well, but I suspect we are in the minority.

[Tris]

A mate who's a postman doesn't agree with your generous description of his colleagues. This guy does his own round, goes back to the sorting office, and then by choice does another one (says it keeps him fit). He's still home for lunch. His mates who do the bare minimum must be home for breakfast FFS!

what a load of crap

The BBC are now also reporting "a load of crap" then - as a postman interviewed on the BBC1 10 o clock news says he finishes his round in 3 hours and goes home. He said he could go back to the sorting office and do other duties, if he did that he'd get overtime.

7 hours pay for 3 hours work. Cushty. Not surprised he doesn't bother going back for the overtime.

[stuwilky]

The BBC are now also reporting "a load of crap" then - as a postman interviewed on the BBC1 10 o clock news says he finishes his round in 3 hours and goes home. He said he could go back to the sorting office and do other duties, if he did that he'd get overtime.

7 hours pay for 3 hours work. Cushty. Not surprised he doesn't bother going back for the overtime.

Each walk is allegedly managed at 3.5 hours per day.

The other hours worked relate to sorting duties at the distribution office, which must be completed prior to the postie going 'out' on the round.

Bearing in mind the shift begins at, or prior to 6am, the postie is not allowed to leave the sorting office until the allocated work there is completed.

[ewoodblue]

Who is responssible for concocting such a complicated working system.I've never heard nothing like this.

In my day,you workd so many hours at normal rate,Time and a half for overtime(depending if there was any),and double time if you worked Sundays.

You've lost me.

[stuwilky]

Who is responssible for concocting such a complicated working system.I've never heard nothing like this.

In my day,you workd so many hours at normal rate,Time and a half for overtime(depending if there was any),and double time if you worked Sundays.

You've lost me.

What is complicated?

A shift is spent with approx half of it (slightly less) on the street pushing letters through doors, the remainder of the shift is spent sorting the post that arrives at the sorting office and sorting your own route into delivery order.

If you want overtime, it is anything you work after your booked finish time.

Thats my understanding, but Im sure Moz will correct me if I am wrong.

[ewoodblue]

What is complicated?

A shift is spent with approx half of it (slightly less) on the street pushing letters through doors, the remainder of the shift is spent sorting the post that arrives at the sorting office and sorting your own route into delivery order.

If you want overtime, it is anything you work after your booked finish time.

Thats my understanding, but Im sure Moz will correct me if I am wrong.

Well,at the factory I worked,we got allocated overtime,if and when the work was available.The management decided.We couldn't just chose to do overtime when it suited us.Overtime wasn't easy to get,but you was thankful to get it if you could just to make a decent wage.What I'm saying,the term "Beggars can't be chosers",was really appropriate.

[stuwilky]

Well,at the factory I worked,we got allocated overtime,if and when the work was available.The management decided.We couldn't just chose to do overtime when it suited us.

So the difference being that rather than being allocated extra work when it is available the staff chose whether they want extra work if it is available?

[ewoodblue]

So the difference being that rather than being allocated extra work when it is available the staff chose whether they want extra work if it is available?

The difference is,this morning I gave a dam about the posties plight,but now,I don't give a monkeys backside what happens.

They've got union reps,then use them.I'm really not that interested.

[stuwilky]

What has changed ewoodblue?

[Tris]

So the difference being that rather than being allocated extra work when it is available the staff chose whether they want extra work if it is available?

No, the difference appears to be that the "Spanish Practices" still prevalent at Royal Mail which include being paid 2 hours overtime for 10 minutes extra work, being paid a full days overtime to cover for a colleague, being paid overtime to deviate from a route even if no extra time is involved - the list goes on and on.

And as a result the business is unsustainable, the service is crap and people like Paul are paying their distribution budgets to efficient, well run private competitors - Royal Mail lost 40% of it's coroporate business in the last 12 months.

Now I'm not saying that landscape is ideal for the country - Jimbo makes some excellent points. However we are where we are, and the postmen will have to learn very fast that they can no longer work on easy street - the world has moved on.

[ewoodblue]

No, the difference appears to be that the "Spanish Practices" still prevalent at Royal Mail which include being paid 2 hours overtime for 10 minutes extra work, being paid a full days overtime to cover for a colleague, being paid overtime to deviate from a route even if no extra time is involved - the list goes on and on.

And as a result the business is unsustainable, the service is crap and people like Paul are paying their distribution budgets to efficient, well run private competitors - Royal Mail lost 40% of it's coroporate business in the last 12 months.

Now I'm not saying that landscape is ideal for the country - Jimbo makes some excellent points. However we are where we are, and the postmen will have to learn very fast that they can no longer work on easy street - the world has moved on.

Well,I just get confused with this flexible working.In all the factories I worked,you either worked on shifts,or days,to a set hourly rate.Overtime wasn't compulsary,it was a bonus if you could get it to make some extra cash.You couldn't pick or chose.

Shift workers got paid better money than Day workers,because the hours were less sociable.

It seems I have a lot to learn,about this flexiable working system ,it's foriegn to me(albeit it's Spanish lol.)

So,pardon my ignorance, if I don't give a dam until I understand how it works.In other words,until then,I'm not taking sides.

[yorkblues]

tris you talk ###### in york are rounds 3hours plus the 3/4 hours in the office sorting the mail by hand .one day your so called mate will tell you

[Paul]

Deputy general secretary Dave Ward described how in 2007 it is commonplace to work to the end of the day and a Royal Mail manager can decide if you’ve worked hard enough and can take away the whole days pay. “I call that slavery,” said Dave. “They call CWU members “our people” – they don’t want you to have a life outside RM. All Leighton and Crozier are bothered about is profit. They are not bothered about running down the service or 40,000 jobs.”

Former postmaster general Tony Benn claimed public services like health, education, the BBC and the police all lose money. “Posties don’t just deliver mail, they provide a social service, keeping an eye out for people,” said Tony, who challenged the government to introduce competition into policing.

Once the dispute was settled, John (Grogan, Labour Selby) suggested the government then get on with the promised review of liberalisation. ”We are not just defending our own public service here but the whole concept of public service,” said John.

Labour MP for Hayes and Harlington John McDonnell described Royal Mail as deploying a “Gate Gourmet style of management.”

“It is about long hours, low pay, agency staff and cuts in pensions,” said John, who declared that what was being seen with the postal strike and industrial action among PCS and local government workers was workers saying “enough is enough.”

“We are now in a fight back to reclaim public services as a result of what you (CWU members) have done,” said John.

TUC deputy general secretary Frances O’Grady underscored how important the postal dispute was for the whole trade union movement.” You are the human face of an essential public service in Britain.The old days of command and control management have gone. Public service must come before profit,” said Frances.

Christine Blower, the deputy general secretary of the NUT, said: “we must win not just for the postal workers but public services across the board.”

These people exepct the general public to have sympathy with them? This sounds like the 1970s / 80s. Defending a public service? Pull the other one. Long hours - 37.2 hours - yes please. Low pay - I can't actually find out what the basic rate for a postman is, perhaps someone can tell us? I sympathise with the pensions issue as this is a vitally important for all but the postal workers need to recognise millions have a similar problem - planned pension savings will not reach the levels expected either through public or private funding. When millions of private pension holders face the same issue with no hope of recourse why should postal workers be a special case?

Another point. We live in a fairly rural location, small village 5 miles out of Chorley. I know working practices in Royal Mail have changed and it has been noticeable deliveries have deteriorated in recent years. My impression, right or wrong, is the actual postie is chosing to deliver when the mail reaches a worthwhile level. My only evidence being 2 or 3 days a week we get a bundle of mail, the rest of the time nothing. If you want my support deliver a first class letter the next day, not when it suits.

[thenodrog]

You would like to pay more tax to renationaise things Gordo?

No would I hell. And can I just point out that in one short sentence you've fully and precisely explained why Mrs Thatcher potted em. They were a troublesome and very costly millstone around all our necks.

I thank you Stu.

[thenodrog]

So the difference being that rather than being allocated extra work when it is available the staff chose whether they want extra work if it is available?

You have obviously never held a management position in a private company* or you would realise that that would make efficient and cost effective management an impossibility. You need to view things from a wider perspective in order for your arguments to have any credibility.

Your daft scenario would see postal systems grind to a halt everytime the sun was shining in summer or England were playing cricket, rugby, football anywhere. Whilst in the alternative scenarios the sorting offices would be packed to the gills with staff chatting and twiddling their thumbs whilst 'earning' overtime?

* btw Stu you don't need to go into precise detail but what is your own occupation?

[Jimbo]

It really disappoints me to see so many people on this forum with such a "Jack Sh1t" attitude - "I have to work a 60 hour week and so should they get away with 37.5 hours!" and "I don't get to chose my overtime - why do they ?" Are your terms and conditions so bad that you have to wish the same on others ? I know it's a job I wouldn't want to do & if I did I'd want more than they are getting paid - so good luck to them

The reason a lot of these Spanish Practices exist is to prevent management taking liberties with their workforce by forcing them to work unsocial hours, beyond their shifts etc, or at least make them think twice about doing it. The were put in place by mutual agreement and if you want to remove them it must also be done with mutual agreement.

I certainly have no issue with someone who finishes his allocated tasks for the day knocking off, if the work has been completed as agreed.

And when you state that there's a better more efficient delivery sytem with it being privatised please remeber Royal Mail is unable to tender for the business that has been hived off, even if they can offer more competive terms than the competition - there's not even a level playing field

The way it's going with the continued is London will get 5 deliveries a day to businesses and if you live in Cornwall you'll be lucky to get mail once a week. And home deliveries - forget it - Come and pick it up from the central post office at your convenience. Not the type of country I want to live in.

Gord - since you want to grind down the working man, so much I struggle to see how you reconcile this with your views on immigration - there's plenty of Eastern Europeans that will work for twice as long for half the pay and sod everyone else !

[thenodrog]

Gord - since you want to grind down the working man, so much I struggle to see how you reconcile this with your views on immigration - there's plenty of Eastern Europeans that will work for twice as long for half the pay and sod everyone else !

Why should I do that I'm a working man too? My point is that the tail should not wag the dog.

[ABBEY]

For those bleeting about the 37.5 hour week you will find NOONE is allowed to work any more than this over a (i think) a 17 week period(average)..THE GREAT EURO LAW BROUGHT TO YOU BY A TIRED GREEK SLIPPER MAKER.iN FACT OUR PLACE ITS 36 HOURS.yes we do ot but if we break the hours theres an opt out form to sign but they dont like you signing it...if your boss or your a boss and you do work longer im sure you find them in a lot of trouble....or thats what our bosses have brainwashed us with ...im sure someone can verify or deny this

[stuwilky]

You have obviously never held a management position in a private company* or you would realise that that would make efficient and cost effective management an impossibility. You need to view things from a wider perspective in order for your arguments to have any credibility.

So obvious that you have called it wrong!

I used to be a manager within a large private sector organisation - where staff were also able to select their own overtime (within restrictions).

It worked quite well with some very limited exeptions - not bad for 400 people working an average of 24 hour contracts within 2 overtime shifts available for staff to choose on a weekly basis.

Nb - Abbey - the working time regs place a maximum of a 48 hour working week averaged over 17 weeks.

[Flopsy]

* btw Stu you don't need to go into precise detail but what is your own occupation?

If he's anything like he was when I met him in Cardif for the FA cup semi final he's currently causing chaos as a back for the French team

[Ben-2000]

there's plenty of Eastern Europeans that will work for twice as long for half the pay and sod everyone else !

Exactly, get em in on the strike days and if they can do the job give them a contract!