[Archived] Exam Results

[S15]

Hard work and having a dream goes a long way.

Spot on.

I always find the grafters who want it go further than the ones who naturally have it.. There are very few things one human can do which another can't learn, and the desire to achieve something you naturally find tough usually takes you further than somewhat winging it whilst doing something you appear naturally good at.

[jim mk2]

Kinda puts todays orgy of top grades from comprehensive schools especially into stark contrast doesn't it?

Or perhaps standards are higher now and the best kids work much harder ?

Difficult to accept maybe when your first reaction always is to denigrate modern institutions.

Memo to Colin re - Oxbridge : tell your niece to go for it.

Both universities have extremely rigorous tests and interviews but if she is bright and passionate about her subject she will be fine. The world thereafter will be her lobster ......

[colin]

Or perhaps standards are higher now and the best kids work much harder ?

Difficult to accept maybe when your first reaction always is to denigrate modern institutions.

Memo to Colin re - Oxbridge : tell your niece to go for it.

Both universities have extremely rigorous tests and interviews but if she is bright and passionate about her subject she will be fine. The world thereafter will be her lobster ......

Thanks Jim, nice to see someone else not taking the depressingly negative route on everything that ever happens ever.

My neice will do just fine despite the all too depressing posts on here.

No doubt my daughter will do too in a few years, I hope so.

Tris: it was a typo. That OK?

Cheer up you miserable bu66ers,

[thenodrog]

Or perhaps standards are higher now and the best kids work much harder ?

What? Every piggin year on year without fail? Most on here know you are stupid so why do you feel the need to convey that to the rest?

[jim mk2]

What? Every piggin year on year without fail? Most on here know you are stupid so why do you feel the need to convey that to the rest?

Most on here know you are an ignorant, bone-headed berk. Thanks for confirming it.

[thenodrog]

Most on here know you are an ignorant, bone-headed berk. Thanks for confirming it.

Oi! Less of the berk!

Fact remains that God willing we'll be having the same debate in 12 months time when another record haul of results will leave Colins daughter feeling somewhat deflated as her achievements will have been diluted. In 10 years or so she'll hardly dare mention the 3 B's and 5 A's in conversation for fear of ridicule.

Oh btw why you are continually allowed to carry out so many personal attacks with impunity? Are you some board officials Grandad or something?

[T4E]

Is it at all possible that the curriculum is clearer and the teachers are better at delivering it than has been the case before?

We should be striving for continuous improvement in every key sector - yet in the one where we consistently achieve such, the cynics come out in force.

[nowthen]

While there is some manipulation of the stats, for example BTEC qualifications counting as four Cs, I always get the impression that the people who criticise are generally justifying their own qualifications ('it was harder in my day').

[Majiball]

Firstly to all who have sat there exams, this thread was not started with the intent of demeaning the achievements of those who have sat exams. I applaud the hard work and effort that good students put in and they should be proud of what they do.

At the end of the day as in all walks of life you can only over come the obstacles put in front of you regardless of whether they are high or low. For me to say this is not aimed at the students/teachers its aimed at those who set the bar.

A lot of top universities, which are independent of the government curriculum wise, are now introducing aptitude tests. Now why do they need too?, exam boards have come out saying that they should not be allowed. They say that it is biased against state schools, because independents will be able to coach them for it. Could state not do the same?? Now an aptitude test, looks for the examinees ability to acquire and gain knowledge. It does not test knowledge of a subject, such as an A-level would.

Oxford University now has 96% of all applicants applying with straight A's, but yet have record drop out rates after year 1. They as well as many top universities are introducing these aptitude tests. People drop out for two reasons mainly either they get caught up in the social side or they struggle with the course content. Now if all our children are achieving great results, why the rise? why the need for tests?

University is very different to school you are not spoon fed, you are given the knowledge through lectures and extra reading. In other words you are taught the subject, not coached to pass the exam at the end. Its a culture shock for many, they have believed they are some of the brightest kids in the country. Its well worth noting that even though 1 in 5 who can now achieve a top grade at A-level, will not achieve a top grade (1st) at university. 1st class degree's sit pretty as always at around about 10% it does not really change.

A-levels where considered more than ample a denominator for entry to University 10-20 years ago, now they are not. Universities are introducing these tests to weed the wheat from the chaff, but if they are all getting A's surely they are all wheat? If so many of our children are improving there grades at A-level and GCSE's then does it not stand to reason that 1st class degrees awarded would rise as well?

To quote a highly respected lecturer on the first day for new students "congratulations you've done well to make it this far, you have all proved you have the ability to regurgitate what you are taught, now we are going to see if you have the ability to analyse, criticise and construct the puzzle from the pieces we give you, good luck"

[colin]

Colins daughter feeling somewhat deflated as her achievements will have been diluted. In 10 years or so she'll hardly dare mention the 3 B's and 5 A's in conversation for fear of ridicule.

I doubt that very much. She, & many others of her age, may wonder briefly why you sought to disparage her education, her skills, her appitite for learning and her intelligence.

Then she, and thousands of others like her will stick a finger up to your face and say "Your Mum." And laugh at you.

And they will get on with it and maybe just pay a passing thought as to why some old fart thought they were no good.

[jim mk2]

Fact remains that God willing we'll be having the same debate in 12 months time when another record haul of results will leave Colins daughter feeling somewhat deflated as her achievements will have been diluted. In 10 years or so she'll hardly dare mention the 3 B's and 5 A's in conversation for fear of ridicule.

Oh btw why you are continually allowed to carry out so many personal attacks with impunity? Are you some board officials Grandad or something?

Great grandfather actually.

Me thinks a certain person doth protest too much. Perhaps his kids flunked their exams ...... surprising considering their dad's "grammar school" pedigree

[thenodrog]

Great grandfather actually.

Me thinks a certain person doth protest too much. Perhaps his kids flunked their exams ...... surprising considering their dad's "grammar school" pedigree

Gotcha! By that and previous comments and taking into account the ones that you made about Olympic gold medals being easy I can only assume that you and your offspring must have been about as athletic as tub of lard.

btw Some board officials Great Grandad eh? Explains a lot.

[stuwilky]

I was speaking about someone who had been away from education for over ten years and then returned. If you where to progress through education without gaps it would not be noticable.

I merely wanted to know if others had heard or experienced similiar things.

I started a degree 9 years after my GCSE's.

I wasnt taught anything with even close to an overlap.

[broadsword]

Bryan, I was just a bit cheesed off with the annual groans of "exams must be getting easier" which denigrates my neice's (and other) examinees' hard work. Apologies for seemingly going OTT.

Rather similar to the exam results is the Men's 100m world record has been improving for years:

....

By the same logic this proves that the 100m sprint is getting easier.

Or, and this has a whiff of big conspiracy about it, the 100m track is getting shorter

Think on.

No worries, Mr. C.

I'm not sure whether your analogy is a good one, since it's fairly straightforward to consistently measure someone's ability to run 100m, all you need is a 100m track.

Rather different to consistently measure someone's academic ability at the age of 16.

I'm not seekins to denigrate your niece, but it's a concern for employers if too many people get top grades, how on Earth do you differentiate between candidates? I know someone who was (maybe still is) a teacher, he was getting increasingly fed up with the paperwork and the obsession with metrics at the expense of actually teaching. It was his belief that kids weren't actually getting brighter, they were just being coached better to pass the exams. The phrase "knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing" springs to mind.

Best of luck to your niece, I'm sure she's very clever.

With respect,

Mr B

(Bodged set of A level results, a drinker's 2:2 degree and a postgrad)

[Majiball]

I started a degree 9 years after my GCSE's.

I wasnt taught anything with even close to an overlap.

Did you take A-levels?? and if so where they in the same subject that you went on to study at university??

Lastly well done, it takes balls to go back into education as a mature student, hope you finished the course!!

[all you need is duff]

University is very different to school you are not spoon fed, you are given the knowledge through lectures and extra reading. In other words you are taught the subject, not coached to pass the exam at the end. Its a culture shock for many, they have believed they are some of the brightest kids in the country. Its well worth noting that even though 1 in 5 who can now achieve a top grade at A-level, will not achieve a top grade (1st) at university. 1st class degree's sit pretty as always at around about 10% it does not really change.

A-levels where considered more than ample a denominator for entry to University 10-20 years ago, now they are not. Universities are introducing these tests to weed the wheat from the chaff, but if they are all getting A's surely they are all wheat? If so many of our children are improving there grades at A-level and GCSE's then does it not stand to reason that 1st class degrees awarded would rise as well?

A lot of universities make sure that you don't get too many people getting 1st class degrees, or failing for that matter, by moderating exam marks. I've just finished a mathematics degree at York and this is one of the department's policies:

"Sometimes exam marks on a particular module seem notably out of line with expectations, and in this case the Departments Moderating Committee considers whether a piecewise linear transformation of the exam marks produces a truer reflection of the candidates' expected achievement."

This basically means that if everyone gets over 70% in a module then they lower everyone's mark so that you get the standard spread of results (approximately 10% first class, 55% 2.1, 25% 2.2, 15% third or lower). The aforementioned module may have had higher than usual marks because the exam was too easy or may be just because the students are more intelligent and are working harder. Either way, the final published results will look the same as they have for years.

Equivalently, the moderation of marks in exams with unusually low marks may be hiding the fact that the students aren't as intelligent as previous years.

In conclusion, if departments at other Universities employ similar policies in examinations, the spread of results at University level will remain pretty constant and are therefore not a good indication of whether or not standards are increasing.

[Eddie]

Used to have a teacher who would always perfectly apply the traditional "bell-curve" of the A-F marking system. Now, whilst I don't have a problem with that, try telling your parents that a B really is quite a good effort if your class is very smart. Really horrible to get back a paper or test with a 85 on it only to see that it equates to a C. Makes life easy if you're in with a bunch of dummies though.

[colin]

(Bodged set of A level results, a drinker's 2:2 degree and a postgrad)

Similar for me only a bit less on the qualifications!

I just can't accept this view that as more students are getting better results then the exams must be getting easier.

It just seems too easy an explanation, for the cynical, & the lazyittus.

[blue phil]

The most effective way of testing the quality of today's educational standards is to ignore the propoganda spewed out by the authorities which appeals mainly to those with a vested interest .

Parents , teachers , pupils and the government all have good reason to argue in favour of the exam's not getting easier viewpoint .

The group in society who are most likely to be objective are employers - and strangely enough , these are the ones most critical . They have to be truly selective in order to prosper and they can see a system which is well on the way to having 100% success rate is just a sham .

Personally , I use personal experience . It is no coincidence to me that on this messageboard , for example , the most literate posters are the ones who left school a full generation ago and more . I sometimes find it quite shocking that some who left school (and even universities ) recently have atrocious standards . It is also noticeable that our foreign contributers are a lot more articulate - even those who have English as a second language . Not a scientific survey , granted , but worth more than anything Ed Balls comes out with .......

[broadsword]

Similar for me only a bit less on the qualifications!

I just can't accept this view that as more students are getting better results then the exams must be getting easier.

It just seems too easy an explanation, for the cynical, & the lazyittus.

I admit I have cynicalitis.

But when you have a university head of department giving up with students' spelling, because it's so atrocious; and a common criticism of university students that they struggle to cope with unfamiliar problems, you have to wonder where our educational standards are heading.

I just don't buy that kids are getting smarter, not as an annual trend. If that was so, then the kids of today would be a lot more intelligent than I was as a school-leaver 20 years ago, and a great deal more intelligent than kids leaving grammar schools 70 years ago. I don't buy it. Maybe they're just getting better at passing exams.

The explanation is probably a bit more sophisticated than: "Kids are getting smarter" or "Exams are getting easier".

Although I admit it must be seen as curmudgeonly to write off the efforts of students who've worked hard, because their exams are easy.

[Eddie]

Personally , I use personal experience . It is no coincidence to me that on this messageboard , for example , the most literate posters are the ones who left school a full generation ago and more . I sometimes find it quite shocking that some who left school (and even universities ) recently have atrocious standards . It is also noticeable that our foreign contributers are a lot more articulate - even those who have English as a second language . Not a scientific survey , granted , but worth more than anything Ed Balls comes out with .......

Aw, thanks Phil.

[thenodrog]

Similar for me only a bit less on the qualifications!

I just can't accept this view that as more students are getting better results then the exams must be getting easier.

It just seems too easy an explanation, for the cynical, & the lazyittus.

Well I cannot accept that Darwin's 'Survival of the fittest' can ever be interpreted to mean that the school leavers each successive year make those from the year before seem backward.

We know evoluition can barely make kids more intelligent in centuries never mind successive years, and teachers likewise. So over to you Colin, and this time do at least attempt to provide a possible explanation for the continuous annual leap in examination grades.

[thenodrog]

Although I admit it must be seen as curmudgeonly to write off the efforts of students who've worked hard, because their exams are easy.

Correct. The current ludicrous situation means that it's so easy to demean achievement because there has been simply no year on year consistency. Pre comprehensive education and in the days of good old fashioned Grammar schools you could count on one hand the number of pupils who got 3 A's at A level in each year. They really were bordering on genius's.

.... Speaking of genius's

genius ... very great and rare natural ability or skill, especially in a particular area such as science or art,

.......... Do we have em still? And if so how would we know?

Aw, thanks Phil.

Bet you used the spellchecker there eddie.

[tony gale's mic]

My neice has just got 3 - B grades; 5 - A grades; & 3 - A* grades.

She wants to eventually become a doctor or surgeon via Oxbridge. She's a 15 year old who lives in Clitheroe.

Any of lot got a problem with that?

Let me know. Describe your problems & my neice's inadequacies in detail. Otherwise STFU.

I'm in my final year of a Bachelor of Medicine and Surgery degree at a UK university and was encouraged to apply for Oxbridge but didn't...but exam standards were definitely far too low in my time. It wasn't that hard to get A's at A level and do next to nothing for the two years, even if you do have something up there, it should at least stretch you in some way and demand more of your time than A levels did. Not that I complained at the time, I had a very fun two years but there's room to make them much harder...and I've probably gone through the system a lot more recently than most in this thread.

[BiggusLaddus]

Similar for me only a bit less on the qualifications!

I just can't accept this view that as more students are getting better results then the exams must be getting easier.

It just seems too easy an explanation, for the cynical, & the lazyittus.

I don't think that anyone would have a problem if there was a trend for exam results to go up. But it make it a nonsense when exam results improve every single year without fail, no matter how much fiddling the incumbant government does with the syllabus or how low teacher morale gets.

If exam results followed s similar line to the economy, where there is a gradual mean increase but with peaks and troughs (often decided by government policy) around it then that would make sense to me. As it is the most logical explanation for the year on year improvements is that the exams are getting easier each year. Surely the average level of intelligence will vary up and down (allthough maybe gradually going up) from year to year then the only other explanation is that teaching standards are improving every year by a large margin to take account of the variation in intelligence.

I speak as someone who did their A-levels ten years ago when this debate was already well underway and even then I thought the same as I do now. It was hard not to think that when we were given physics exam questions from the early 80's to practise on as they were so much harder than our own exams would be. Almost everyone in the class struggled with them and we were all there because we wanted to be, not because we had to be as with GCSE's.

*edit* Colin, your analogy with the 100m sprint is slightly off, or we would see the world record broken at every single World Championships and Olympic Games. I don't know, but I would bet that we have a gradual mean improvement in winning times, but some years they leap up and other years they are down.