[Archived] Child Labour In Football Stitching

[broadsword]

your missing the point, big companies as well as small will not self regulate, they are trying to make money!

and the governments of these countries are also making money.

As american points out why do consumers not stop buying these products?

So, is it the Indian caste system or unethical companies that are to blame?

[yoda]

So, is it the Indian caste system or unethical companies that are to blame?

Both, but I guarantee that it will not stop without legislation.

[dave birch]

OK yoda, what do you replace it with? The income, I mean.

Yes, it's wrong, but what is the altenative?

Do you buy Nike, Asics, Adidas, etc? if you do, then you are partly to blame. When did you last ring these corporates to let them know you weren't happy with their manufacturing policies?

[yoda]

OK yoda, what do you replace it with? The income, I mean.

Yes, it's wrong, but what is the altenative?

Do you buy Nike, Asics, Adidas, etc? if you do, then you are partly to blame. When did you last ring these corporates to let them know you weren't happy with their manufacturing policies?

I am in the lucky position of being able to buy at least 90% of my clothes in China at the going rate in China. The company's products you mention are vastly over priced.(but hey, some people like to wear a name!)

Regarding replacing the income, that is only half of the problem, what do the governments replace the lost tax with? therein lies the problem, legislate and lose tax or turn a blind eye!

[colin]

I am in the lucky position of being able to buy at least 90% of my clothes in China at the going rate in China. The company's products you mention are vastly over priced.(but hey, some people like to wear a name!)

Regarding replacing the income, that is only half of the problem, what do the governments replace the lost tax with? therein lies the problem, legislate and lose tax or turn a blind eye!

Yoda,

Sorry mate but you are losing this one. Two days ago it was all down to the Indian caste system now it's something to do with you being able to buy stuff in China "at the going rate."

Or replacing "the lost tax." What exactly is that?

Maybe we all need to go back to the original post on this thread and start this discussion again.

[American]

Maybe you need to get the stick out of your ass?

[dave birch]

I am in the lucky position of being able to buy at least 90% of my clothes in China at the going rate in China. The company's products you mention are vastly over priced.(but hey, some people like to wear a name!)

Regarding replacing the income, that is only half of the problem, what do the governments replace the lost tax with? therein lies the problem, legislate and lose tax or turn a blind eye!

Much of the name stuff sold in China is fake. I never paid more than $17.00 for anything, except when I bought at the official stores. I have a beautiful fake YSL polo shirt, that would cost well over $100 for an original, "to you sir, $17.00", sports shoes, yep $17.00, baseball style caps bought at Badaling, 4 for $5.00. DVD's, latest releases, $1.00 each in the subway at the International hotel.

I do note that now, China is starting to come down on these marketers of fake goods because of pressure from overseas and the success of companies taking the fakes manufacturers to court, likewise in Indonesia.

[yoda]

Yoda,

Sorry mate but you are losing this one. Two days ago it was all down to the Indian caste system now it's something to do with you being able to buy stuff in China "at the going rate."

Or replacing "the lost tax." What exactly is that?

Maybe we all need to go back to the original post on this thread and start this discussion again.

I never said it was all down to the caste system, you need to go and see how these countries operate and read the posts more carefully

[yoda]

Much of the name stuff sold in China is fake. I never paid more than $17.00 for anything, except when I bought at the official stores. I have a beautiful fake YSL polo shirt, that would cost well over $100 for an original, "to you sir, $17.00", sports shoes, yep $17.00, baseball style caps bought at Badaling, 4 for $5.00. DVD's, latest releases, $1.00 each in the subway at the International hotel.

I do note that now, China is starting to come down on these marketers of fake goods because of pressure from overseas and the success of companies taking the fakes manufacturers to court, likewise in Indonesia.

I very rarely buy the big brand names, in fact can't remember the last time I did. How did you pay $17.00 in China, the currency is RMB.

The pressure actually has come from China signing up to the treaties of the WTO and starting to enforce them, like I said, legislation is the answer.

[dave birch]

Think about it Yoda. At the time I was in China, the exchange rate with the Aus$ was about 6:1, 100RMB divided by 6 = Aus$16.67, approx $17.00. Like I said, I never paid anymore than $17.00 (or if you like RMB100) outside of the official stores.I might have been able to get them for less, but didn't push it further as I felt that Id got a good deal. Did all my bartering on a calculator, nothing was spoken that was understandable, all done on the figures on the lcd screen of the calculator.

Like I said, fake YSL polos, same material as the original, supposedly YSL tabs in them, Aus$17.00. I could have bought (as I was offered numerous times) a pack of four unnamed polos for 20RMB. The wife bought three leather (yes, real leather) "Gucci" handbags for the same amount. They were unnamed when we looked at them, they took them away to be stamped with the "Gucci" name.

[yoda]

Think about it Yoda. At the time I was in China, the exchange rate with the Aus$ was about 6:1, 100RMB divided by 6 = Aus$16.67, approx $17.00. Like I said, I never paid anymore than $17.00 (or if you like RMB100) outside of the official stores.I might have been able to get them for less, but didn't push it further as I felt that Id got a good deal. Did all my bartering on a calculator, nothing was spoken that was understandable, all done on the figures on the lcd screen of the calculator.

Like I said, fake YSL polos, same material as the original, supposedly YSL tabs in them, Aus$17.00. I could have bought (as I was offered numerous times) a pack of four unnamed polos for 20RMB. The wife bought three leather (yes, real leather) "Gucci" handbags for the same amount. They were unnamed when we looked at them, they took them away to be stamped with the "Gucci" name.

mmmmm! interesting,

how does buying fake goods help?

[thenodrog]

Dave you are confusing me. You seem to be cherry picking. Are you.........

1. In favour of child labour as a means of providing NECESSARY income for poor families in 3rd world countries?

2. Totally opposed to it in any form.

3. Quite happy to exploit it in order to buy flashy 'named' products on the cheap? To take your example would you have been quite as delighted and still have purchased those 'real leather' handbags if they had come back stamped not with your wife's preferred choice 'Gucci' but stamped "FAKE" or even more pointedly 'PRODUCED BY CHILD EXPLOITATION IN THE THIRD WORLD'. Might have been quite an ice breaker at dinner parties eh?

[yoda]

Dave you are confusing me. You seem to be cherry picking. Are you.........

1. In favour of child labour as a means of providing NECESSARY income for poor families in 3rd world countries?

2. Totally opposed to it in any form.

3. Quite happy to exploit it in order to buy flashy 'named' products on the cheap? To take your example would you have been quite as delighted and still have purchased those 'real leather' handbags if they had come back stamped not with your wife's preferred choice 'Gucci' but stamped "FAKE" or even more pointedly 'PRODUCED BY CHILD EXPLOITATION IN THE THIRD WORLD'. Might have been quite an ice breaker at dinner parties eh?

well put Theno'

[dave birch]

Theno.

The point I was trying to make was, that this is a situation that happens in other countries apart from India. To single out India is somehow hiding the fact that it happens elsewhere, The Phillipines, for example.

As for bartering for things, it's part of the holiday "experience". Most certainly, in Beijing, there are two (maybe three) distinct ways to buy things, the official "Friendship" stores, the newer "high street" stores, and the markets. No bartering in the Friendship stores, but in the others it's ok. They accept that it's a way of doing business. I suppose too, it highlights the fact that goods are produced for a pittance. If I was aware of goods being produced by child labour, then, I'd avoid them and do as American suggested earlier in the thread.

[thenodrog]

Right Dave.

Personally I'm not totally totally opposed to child labour in certain conditions. If it's within a family situation, is not cruel or overt exploitation and is controlled in it's extent than I don't see too much of a problem. 'Life skills' is a term that comes into play.

Other side of the coin is in forcing kids in this country who are totally unsuited and unwilling for academic work to stay in full time education until they are old enough to drink in pubs and vote can be just as cruel and counter productive imo. In a couple of generations school leaving age has progressively gone up from 14 to a proposed 18 but who will say for definite which age is any better for all young adults?

[yoda]

Theno.

The point I was trying to make was, that this is a situation that happens in other countries apart from India. To single out India is somehow hiding the fact that it happens elsewhere, The Phillipines, for example.

As for bartering for things, it's part of the holiday "experience". Most certainly, in Beijing, there are two (maybe three) distinct ways to buy things, the official "Friendship" stores, the newer "high street" stores, and the markets. No bartering in the Friendship stores, but in the others it's ok. They accept that it's a way of doing business. I suppose too, it highlights the fact that goods are produced for a pittance. If I was aware of goods being produced by child labour, then, I'd avoid them and do as American suggested earlier in the thread.

For the last time, I was not singling out India, you put that spin on it.

The pittance you refer to is relevant only to the cost of living where it is being produced.

More than likely the computer you are using, the televison you watch and the mobile you use were produced in China,

without investigating the supply chain you have no idea if child labour has been used in making these products, chances are that it has.

[colin]

For the last time, I was not singling out India, you put that spin on it.

On October 10th at 12:05 you wrote

I doubt you will ever change it in India, cheap labour is there by design, it is called the caste system.

I'd respectfully like to suggest that you were in fact "singling out India" as your comment pretty much illustrates.

Over & out.

[dave birch]

More than likely the computer you are using, the televison you watch and the mobile you use were produced in China,

without investigating the supply chain you have no idea if child labour has been used in making these products, chances are that it has.

Computer, Made in Malaysia, Dell.

TV, Made in Japan, Sony.

[yoda]

On October 10th at 12:05 you wrote

I'd respectfully like to suggest that you were in fact "singling out India" as your comment pretty much illustrates.

Over & out.

It's not over and out because you say it is, I also refered to other countries,

like I also said it's your spin that you are trying to put on it and detracting from the point.

You will never change the situation without and enforcing legislation.

This seems hard for you to graspe but it is the case.

Computer, Made in Malaysia, Dell.

TV, Made in Japan, Sony.

So the chances are that child labour has been used!

[dave birch]

I very much doubt your statement.

Japan? Malaysia? You have got to be kidding.

Talk about clutching at straws

[yoda]

I very much doubt your statement.

Japan? Malaysia? You have got to be kidding.

Talk about clutching at straws

Malaysia yes, audit the supply chain, I previously have

[dave birch]

OK give us your evidence.

I have my doubts that Dell would use child labour, but I'll give you the opportunity to prove me wrong.

[yoda]

OK give us your evidence.

I have my doubts that Dell would use child labour, but I'll give you the opportunity to prove me wrong.

Did I say Dell directly? pay attention, just because something is questioning your fixed set of beliefs that have probably been formed on tourist visits.

I said audit the supply chain, I have.

I did it for a joint venture manufacturing company that I was looking at setting up in Malaysia, when you start looking at sub contractors and who they subsequently use you find all sorts of questionable practices taking place.

The bigger companies tend not to audit the second and third tier suppliers relying on the 1st tier suppliers to get it right via ISO and CE certification.

[dave birch]

and when I talk to my mates in Malaysia, and when I visit there, things like child exploitation isn't an issue.

Yet here we are discussing a problem that apparently is rampant in India. Just what do you want?

[yoda]

and when I talk to my mates in Malaysia, and when I visit there, things like child exploitation isn't an issue.

Yet here we are discussing a problem that apparently is rampant in India. Just what do you want?

You have just summed up what happens, people make tourist visits, talk to mates, think they know what goes on, no substance at all.

This thread is "Child Labour In Football Stitching" it happens, it won't stop until legislation is passed and enforced, it might not be palatable for a lot of people but having had the opportunity to see 1st hand how it works(child labour that is) and how it gets disguised it is the only way it will be stopped.