[Archived] Hoof Ball! Fact Or Fiction?

[Big Fat Sam]

Big Plus One.

[ABBEY]

Maj post....one of best EVER!

[thenodrog]

Robinsons out for a month or two. Will we still hear the shrill cries of 'hoofball' without hoofer No1? Be interesting.

[bellamy11]

Cheers for bringing this back to the front, drog. I hadn't seen Maj's spectacular destruction of Miker

[deryck guyler's spoon]

I'm no fan of Allardyce but it does make me wonder why he gets so much stick when St Martin never cops any grief. Villa hoof the ball just as much as us or Stoke.

[thenodrog]

I'm no fan of Allardyce but it does make me wonder why he gets so much stick when St Martin never cops any grief. Villa hoof the ball just as much as us or Stoke.

True but it's mainly Milner's and Petrov's abilities to get up in support that makes it work better. Dunny either cant get up in support quickly enough or he's sat on his arse rubbing linament in his legs and I'm damned glad Keith doesn't.

[den]

Cheers for bringing this back to the front, drog. I hadn't seen Maj's spectacular destruction of Miker

Miker didn't come back to that one did he

Not surprised.

[tcj_jones]

Maj is a quality poster!

[Miker]

Firstly I said Burnley under Coyle, not Bolton. the whole point of that part was to illustrate that even the team with by far the smallest budget in the league can do well playing a mixed style.

I misread then, regardless Burnley's first season back in the Premier League hardly proves that. Hull were playing well at the start of last season as well, but they're not quite as spectacular now.

I love the way you call my statement daft. Against Bolton we started 451-433, brought on Roberts and went 442 as I said. You might want to pay more attention watching us play, but I guess things look different upside down? Sam has even come out and said we play 451-433 and he switched to 442 as well, so I guess your right we never change formation do we???

You even go on to state we change formations as well, which is it? or have you been on the amber nectar???

I guess switching between 3 different formations in most matches isn't regular to you? So how many times do we have to do it for it to be regular? regular for me is once a day, but judging by some of your posts, I guess it more frequent for you.

We have been playing under a 451-433 for the majority of the season, that is our established tactic under Sam, this is the tactic we use. Changing 442 during the game or to any other formation is not the same. Your statement suggests that each week, Sam should be trying out a new formation, this far into the season. You completely missed what I was saying in my statement. The fact that Sam has tried starting with a different tactic earlier in the season, but at this stage of the season he shouldn't be doing it. Tactical moves during a match are fine and he has done that numerous times, not to mention that he has played out of form players like Pedersen in a different position where they have vastly improved.

"If he was we'd be jumping around formations a lot more than we do, we either play 451 or 442, but mainly 451."

I don't know what you expect us to do... to play 451, then play 422 two weeks later, then play 424 a week after that? It was a daft statement because it makes no sense.

Since your always harping on about how you played the game, I guess you played under some shocking managers. Ince has been gone for about 18 months, surely thats enough time to restore anyones confidence. Its been almost 2 years since we lost Bentley, RSC played practically no role last year, so which key players have we lost in the last two years?? Robinson's been playing fine for a while know, I've defended him from the start, our defence was shocking earlier in the season exposing him again and again, so of course to the Lehman it only looks like he's coming good now. Those of us with good knowledge have seen it for far longer.

This doesn't change the fact that a lot of work needs to be done still. I don't accept the belief in instant improvement. Between the time of Hughes leaving and the start of this season we lost all our key players and have brought in enough new players to fill our starting 11. Our senior players have been out with injury and we're basically now watching a completely brand new team gel. I said Robinson was shot of confidence before he came here and Ince's reign didn't help him much, he's now much improved as are a lot of our other players.

No worries, next time I get any insider info I'll not pass it on, but I'd love to know why your only attacking me and not everyone on here who does the same and gets it wrong from time to time. My mate tipped me off that Southgate would be the next CP manager, at the time he was wrong do you see me screaming at him and accusing him of propaganda? No, I laid down serious money on it as well. Do you do the same when Nicko gets it wrong, no. So its personal isn't it, whats wrong didn't you like my previous reply to your long/direct football is more skillful than pass N move?? did I hit a nerve or was it the fact its taken you so long to reply to any of my posts or even the complete lack of an arguement against my stance??

I'm still waiting for you to reply to my well structured response, guess I'll just have to put up with your insults instead, which IMO are the act of someone who cannot construct a valid response.

Sorry I don't obsess about this forum and the people that post here as much as you might think so I don't go looking for who said what in response to me. I just reply to whatever I see has recent posts in it, so it's nothing personal at all, I'm not sitting there hunting for your posts so I can get into a disagreement with you, which is why I say "others like you" etc.

Talking about Dunn leaving and being unhappy with the current tactics is completely different from a tip off about someone moving to another club. What was going on at the time was outright slander against the manager and the club, which was putting down Dunn's supposed decision to leave to his disenchantment with the manager and tactics based on what I want to know? And FYI, I have criticised nicko in the past as well, I don't really care too much if he tells me that Benjani is coming and then he doesn't though. I do care if he spreads a lie about Dunn leaving because of Sam that causes an uproar in the fanbase.

You might want to read all my posts, I reckon I have a pretty high success rate in my predictions on players and managers and the such. No one else knew anything about anyone who Ince brought in or even Sam for that matter?

Good on you, but honestly I couldn't care less about predictions.

So just because you've heard of them they aren't no-bodies, you even say you know nothing about them?

Ajax, Feyernord, PSV are the big boys in Holland with AZ stalling in their quest. Just so you know they haven't won the league since the 1920's and once got to the UEFA cup final in the 70's, they've spent most of their recent history struggling with money and relegation. When you compare them to the teams I mentioned previously in the grand scale of things they are no-bodies. The only reason you've heard about them is down to Steve maclaren and the fact you state you know nothing about their history just shows that for most of their footballing existence they have been no-bodies.

You might also like to note that the whole point of that section was because, people as always were saying who could do a job and would want to come here? I proposed Mclaren, and used FC twente's climb to illustrate he's getting back to his best. But since you obviously haven't read the whole conversation, yet again you've missed the point.

I was simply disputing the point that FC Twente are nobodies in Dutch Football. I don't know a LOT about them, but as far as I'm aware they have a fairly big history in Dutch football and haven't been that poor throughout the years. The Dutch League isn't dominated by big clubs like England or Spain though, so it's relatively easier to do well there. McClaren is a decent shout, but I thought that there was a fair number of people that criticised him for his style of play, that was not too dissimilar from Sam when he was successful before his disaster with England. So I'm not sure how that would really be an improvement?

Perhaps you'd like to come to Spain, and tell them how wrong they are with their ethos on the game, guess you didn't see their second team destroy England's first last time out? your a dying breed mate, even our own FA backs people like me along with most of Europe.

I don't need to come to Spain, I've followed the Spanish football team all my life and have been a supporter of the national team way before I was a supporter of Rovers. I've followed them and have had to suffer the pain of watching one of the most talented teams be knocked out at every world cup I've watched. Last time out, Spain and Argentina were tied for the most skilled teams in the tournament, but they didn't even reach the semi final. Skill isn't everything and there's no need to even prove that point as it's pretty evident to see.

Direct football detracts from skill acquisition, the fact you stated pass N move only belongs on the playground or indoors, just shows me your a stubborn, unopen individual. I hear theres an opening at the natural history museum want me to get you an application form, you'd fit right in next to the T-Rex.

I have never stated that pass and move football belong on the playground or indoors. In a previous post I said that passing the ball along the ground is an easier skill to master than an accurate long ball. Regardless, pass and move football is better suited to indoor because of the nature of the game in a closed environment. There is more emphasis on skill and less emphasis on physical aspects of the game. Normal football, played on a full sized pitch requires the use of not only skill, but physicality and the entire space around you, both width and height. Arsenal for all its skill and trickery have scored a number of goals in the air, I can't remember which of the recent seasons it was where they actually scored more goals from crosses than any other team in the league. It's just a vital part of the game. Can you explain to me why you'd rather watch Premier League than indoor football? Surely indoor must seem like a more exciting prospect for you.

PS next time you use Samba as an example of us playing to our strengths by playing the ball long you might want to consider that he's no longer up front, because unless I'm watching the game backwards thats the direction the long/direct ball generally goes in.

I was referring to our set pieces as there has been criticism recently of our consistent use of long throws and corners being aimed at Samba or N'zonzi by posters. I don't understand why we wouldn't aim for them at set pieces given that's one of our best weapons? During actual play we don't play as much long ball tactics as is insisted upon.

I await the next barrage of insults.

You won't get it, you will get an apology from me though for being too harsh in my response. I don't remember what that day was, but clearly I was a bit angrier than I should have been in my response.

[Majiball]

I misread then, regardless Burnley's first season back in the Premier League hardly proves that. Hull were playing well at the start of last season as well, but they're not quite as spectacular now.

What it proves is games can be won in our league by other means rather than justing getting it forward quickly by inferior teams.

We have been playing under a 451-433 for the majority of the season, that is our established tactic under Sam, this is the tactic we use. Changing 442 during the game or to any other formation is not the same. Your statement suggests that each week, Sam should be trying out a new formation, this far into the season. You completely missed what I was saying in my statement. The fact that Sam has tried starting with a different tactic earlier in the season, but at this stage of the season he shouldn't be doing it. Tactical moves during a match are fine and he has done that numerous times, not to mention that he has played out of form players like Pedersen in a different position where they have vastly improved.

"If he was we'd be jumping around formations a lot more than we do, we either play 451 or 442, but mainly 451."

I don't know what you expect us to do... to play 451, then play 422 two weeks later, then play 424 a week after that? It was a daft statement because it makes no sense.

I was discussing our formation changes during a game, not from week to week and it was fairly obvious to me that was the case. I don't want to see changes every week and have never alluded to that.

This doesn't change the fact that a lot of work needs to be done still. I don't accept the belief in instant improvement. Between the time of Hughes leaving and the start of this season we lost all our key players and have brought in enough new players to fill our starting 11. Our senior players have been out with injury and we're basically now watching a completely brand new team gel. I said Robinson was shot of confidence before he came here and Ince's reign didn't help him much, he's now much improved as are a lot of our other players.

We don't need that much work, we may have sold all our best players but we've signed some right shockers as well in that time. We have spent more money in the last two years, than almost the whole of Hughes rein. The majority of our first team are still players who where here under Hughes so I'm sorry they should have a good understanding of each other and gelling shouldn't be so much of a factor. It doesn't take 18 months to restore someones confidence, if your an expert in the field of psychology.

Sorry I don't obsess about this forum and the people that post here as much as you might think so I don't go looking for who said what in response to me. I just reply to whatever I see has recent posts in it, so it's nothing personal at all, I'm not sitting there hunting for your posts so I can get into a disagreement with you, which is why I say "others like you" etc.

Talking about Dunn leaving and being unhappy with the current tactics is completely different from a tip off about someone moving to another club. What was going on at the time was outright slander against the manager and the club, which was putting down Dunn's supposed decision to leave to his disenchantment with the manager and tactics based on what I want to know? And FYI, I have criticised nicko in the past as well, I don't really care too much if he tells me that Benjani is coming and then he doesn't though. I do care if he spreads a lie about Dunn leaving because of Sam that causes an uproar in the fanbase.

If it wasn't personal you would have replied sooner, call it the reaction of mis-acquisation. You've replied now as in the last few days some have dragged it back up again, when perhaps it was best left alone.

Context dear fellow is something you need to apprieciatte, and calling me a liar is a step too far. I will assume you are David Dunn or a close friend of his as otherwise your statement has no foundation either. Rumours fly round the footballing world all the time and passing them on is common place, so unless you've never once gossiped your whole life, you again have no place to critise. At the time he was unhappy here, I see no issue making people aware of things. If I'm up for a slander charge as you insuinuate then so are most of the press.

Good on you, but honestly I couldn't care less about predictions.

I like this line especially when later on your mention Pedersen and being moved inside has reinvigorated him, wonder who predicted him doing better there?

I was simply disputing the point that FC Twente are nobodies in Dutch Football. I don't know a LOT about them, but as far as I'm aware they have a fairly big history in Dutch football and haven't been that poor throughout the years. The Dutch League isn't dominated by big clubs like England or Spain though, so it's relatively easier to do well there. McClaren is a decent shout, but I thought that there was a fair number of people that criticised him for his style of play, that was not too dissimilar from Sam when he was successful before his disaster with England. So I'm not sure how that would really be an improvement?

But they are, its like Rovers winning the league.

Just so you know the dutch league has been won mainly by PSV or Ajax since the 50's when it started, so it has really been dominated by them recently. People where asking for names, instead of Sam and demanding that people name them. Most where rejected so I posed one who fitted the bill, no more. At the time it was looking grim for Sam, we hadn't won for almost double figures and our away record was/still is awful. It was rumoured he was up for the chop so why shouldn't people bring up names. Context. Are you attacking the ones who said Sam was going to be sacked after X game???

I don't need to come to Spain, I've followed the Spanish football team all my life and have been a supporter of the national team way before I was a supporter of Rovers. I've followed them and have had to suffer the pain of watching one of the most talented teams be knocked out at every world cup I've watched. Last time out, Spain and Argentina were tied for the most skilled teams in the tournament, but they didn't even reach the semi final. Skill isn't everything and there's no need to even prove that point as it's pretty evident to see.

I don't get this part, you love spainish football, but don't like the way they play? Because they are pass N move. You've made it very clear that you want to get the ball forward quickly as possible with low skill, everything Spain are not?

Stoke have low skill, high physical attributes and they are not doing as well as last year? Its only in england that we think being a beast is more important than being able to play.

Skill may not be the be all and end all but Skill combined with all the other attributes makes you unstoppable. Science even now after saying and advocating physiological indicators as talent identififors are now beginning to use skill instead. Spain now have the two together and will do very well at SA.

I have never stated that pass and move football belong on the playground or indoors. In a previous post I said that passing the ball along the ground is an easier skill to master than an accurate long ball. Regardless, pass and move football is better suited to indoor because of the nature of the game in a closed environment. There is more emphasis on skill and less emphasis on physical aspects of the game. Normal football, played on a full sized pitch requires the use of not only skill, but physicality and the entire space around you, both width and height. Arsenal for all its skill and trickery have scored a number of goals in the air, I can't remember which of the recent seasons it was where they actually scored more goals from crosses than any other team in the league. It's just a vital part of the game. Can you explain to me why you'd rather watch Premier League than indoor football? Surely indoor must seem like a more exciting prospect for you.

Yes, you did. I can go hunting for the quote, but you said that pass N move belonged on the playground or indoors, only. I truly am no longer convinced that you really understand the concept of pass N move. You support Spain, don't like the way they play and believe more in a direct, hit it forward method. I am the only who's confused?

Physical strenght and the such can be trained, anyone can be made to fufill their potential in thiose aspects. Its skill that counts, the whole point of that particular debate was about kids and how skills are learnt. Because you only have a set window in which learning is good as after those years, its a losing battle in these area's.

You seem to be of the opinion that I don't advocate crossing, something we've not acctually spoken about. If you check through my posts you'll be able to get a better view of the type of football I advocate. Variable.

I was referring to our set pieces as there has been criticism recently of our consistent use of long throws and corners being aimed at Samba or N'zonzi by posters. I don't understand why we wouldn't aim for them at set pieces given that's one of our best weapons? During actual play we don't play as much long ball tactics as is insisted upon.

I have voiced concern with these, at the start of the year. Yes Samba is a beast, but every team has one or two of them. So by aiming everything we have at him I the opposition manager just need to stick one of mine with him and a knock down boy. After thats done he's pretty ineffective. So mix it up so they don't know whats coming, bit like that set-piece when the ball was rolled to Gamst? instead of being lobbed in. Variety makes people think, when you make people think a lot they make more mistakes, we don't really make teams think much. Given that we must do it about 5-7 times a game and we get very little success out of it, I think its time for plan B.

You won't get it, you will get an apology from me though for being too harsh in my response. I don't remember what that day was, but clearly I was a bit angrier than I should have been in my response.

[philipl]

It wasn't pretty but I thought we mixed the length of passing well today with an absolute each of a long ball from Nzonzi that put MGP in at the far post.

Glad to see the recognition that hoofing it at Chelsea would just cede posession and have it coming back at us with interest.

[thenodrog]

It wasn't pretty but I thought we mixed the length of passing well today with an absolute each of a long ball from Nzonzi that put MGP in at the far post.

Glad to see the recognition that hoofing it at Chelsea would just cede posession and have it coming back at us with interest.

Chelsea hoofed it plenty too. Course there's plenty on here and in the media who prefer to call that incisive passing or educated pass.