[Archived] EDL demonstration in Blackburn

[thenodrog]

Nationalist groups are an interesting sort. There is a fundamental problem in dealing with them because they believe that first and foremost, the thing that matters most is their culture, history and way of life. It means any attack or infringement on any of these won't be tolerated and where this is the case, it is simply impossible for multiple nationalities to exist in unity and peace.

The nationalistic feeling these people have is not stupid in my opinion though and should not be disregarded, but it is misguided. It's misguided because of what being a nationalist means and what it means to be part of a "nation". It is an outdated notion in the modern world where a shift is occurring from a national identity to a global one. The people forming these groups and participating in these protests and marches are people who are still trying to cling on to this national identity instead of progressing further. This isn't to say that nationalism is stupid or irrelevant, but simply that we live in a changing world, where life, meanings and ideologies will always continue to change.

I think that this shift from national to global identity has been happening too quickly and because some places are changing at different rates, it becomes difficult, nearly impossible, to manage. It is also much harder to establish a global identity for the entirety of the world's population because there aren't enough distinct symbols and messages to unite people together, so it is quite easy to resist in favour of something more obvious like a national identity.

In terms of Halal meat at places like KFC... quite simply, it's your choice whether to eat there or not. I had a Halal kebab today, it was quite delicious. Tomorrow I might go have a non-Halal sub at Subway, which will be equally as delicious. If you don't like the food somewhere, then don't eat there. I don't want to get into an ethical debate about Halal meat here, but it is an important point that the reason Muslims choose to kill their meat in a certain way is for ETHICAL reasons, not for a random religious tradition. Their way of killing the animal is seen as the most humane way of doing it. Their prayer over the meat before killing it, is no different in concept to Christians saying grace before meals.

I think as far as Halal meat goes, if you don't like the taste of it, then don't eat at places that serve Halal meat. Unfortunately, it's that restaurant's choice to serve food in a particular way. I know heaps of people who love Maccas chips, but not KFC chips. I don't see those people coming onto messageboards like this and demanding that they be given a choice between thin and chunky chips.

If it's an ethical issue, well I'd be surprised if places like KFC obtain their meat in a completely ethical manner, whether it's Halal or not. If I was really concerned with the ethical slaughter of animals, I would insist upon eating only at places where free range meat is used, or not be eating meat at all.

ETHIC.... a system of accepted beliefs which control behaviour, especially such a system based on morals.

Fair points Miker .... So why was inhumane slaughter of animals i.e. slaughter without stunning banned in this country until muslims turned up in vast numbers?

Sorry to interrupt the discussion, but I laughed out load when seeing the #. It seems a certain members surname is still on the banned list.

Carry on.....

Richard EwoodPork! Thats a bloody odd name dave.

[Miker]

In a bloody nutshell Ohmi! Just try telling that to an indoctrinated muslim though.

Brainwashed the lot of em. The long term answer's in education of course. Ban all religious education until the age of 18, close secular schools outright and teach children from an early age the science behind food production and preperation and the basic difference between right and wrong in all aspects of life in this country.

theno, I will still argue that if you're worried about the ethics of animal slaughter then you should just be sticking to free range meat altogether or none at all. As I outlined in an earlier post, it is a shame that some religious people don't actively consider what their religion means and just follow it blindly. The concept of Halal slaughter is quite fair in my view and where done as it's supposed to be, it is a humane and respectful method for slaughter. It's obvious that some of the Halal slaughter that goes on ISN'T done in this way though.

[LeChuck]

I can imagine it kicking off as it did in Bolton tbh... as the Muslim population in Blackburn is massively high and they will all assume the EDL are there just to cause racial hatred..

yes but the whole Islamic faith and everything to do with it needs eradicating

You're great.

[thenodrog]

theno, I will still argue that if you're worried about the ethics of animal slaughter then you should just be sticking to free range meat altogether

What on earth has that got to do with the slaughter issue Miker?

Tell you what next time you have surgery of any kind will you have anaesthetic / sedation or not?

This question of being "forced" to eat halal meat isn't valid. It is, as several have pointed out, a choice made by both the restaurant owner and the customer. I never eat KFC, McD or Subway and I dislike Starbucks. When I travel for work my choice of service stations is limited to those with Costa and M&S. It's my personal dislike of the brands mentioned which "forces" me to chose certain service stations. It is me making the choice not the restaurant owner.

Paul.... Ever tried buying NON halal food in that food city in the Trafford Centre? It's impossible.

[LeChuck]

http://www.kentuckyfriedcruelty.com/

Anybody pretending to be protesting against this KFC/Halal thing for animal rights reasons is a bloody moron.

[Miker]

Fair points Miker .... So why was inhumane slaughter of animals i.e. slaughter without stunning banned in this country until muslims turned up in vast numbers?

theno, as far as I know there were tests run on the brain signals of calves and sheep that showed kosher and halal methods of slaughter were not as inhumane as claimed by animal rights activists. Where done correctly, halal and kosher slaughter IS meant to be painless and therefore humane. If vast numbers of immigrants came to England and complained about not being allowed to perform Halal slaughter and these tests were looked at as evidence, it's fair to say that the government would be doing the right thing in allowing it. Although I'm sure there was some pressure exerted on them to make the decision.

Previously, they obviously wouldn't have needed to consider alternatives and indeed why would they when it's so much easier to just stun the animals?

In my view, their decision to allow "ritual slaughter" was the correct one, not because they were pressured into it by a religious group, but because if there is enough proof to show their method is humane, then there is no reason for outlawing it, especially where the decision would affect a large number of people.

[thenodrog]

http://www.kentuckyfriedcruelty.com/

Anybody pretending to be protesting against this KFC/Halal thing for animal rights reasons is a bloody moron.

If I am to be a moron or be a member of PETA... Moron it is then!

That PETA bang on about animal cruelty so what is their stance on throat slitting for fun? Or are they simply to 'right on ya' to dare criticise the world of Islam? RSPCA are just as two faced.

[thenodrog]

theno, as far as I know there were tests run on the brain signals of calves and sheep that showed kosher and halal methods of slaughter were not as inhumane as claimed by animal rights activists. Where done correctly, halal and kosher slaughter IS meant to be painless and therefore humane. If vast numbers of immigrants came to England and complained about not being allowed to perform Halal slaughter and these tests were looked at as evidence, it's fair to say that the government would be doing the right thing in allowing it. Although I'm sure there was some pressure exerted on them to make the decision.

Previously, they obviously wouldn't have needed to consider alternatives and indeed why would they when it's so much easier to just stun the animals?

In my view, their decision to allow "ritual slaughter" was the correct one, not because they were pressured into it by a religious group, but because if there is enough proof to show their method is humane, then there is no reason for outlawing it, especially where the decision would affect a large number of people.

2 wrongs will never make a right. No doubt the compulsory stunning methods still insisted upon in all abbatoir facilities this country was preceded by much research too.

Tell you what Miker answer me this and never mind the skewed research work provised by the muslim councils of wherever..... stunning before slaughter is still compulsory for all non religious reasons. Why would that be then?

[Miker]

What on earth has that got to do with the slaughter issue Miker?

Tell you what next time you have surgery of any kind will you have anaesthetic / sedation or not?

Terrible analogy. I'd be going for surgery, not heading for the great pie in the sky. What would I prefer? Instant, painless death over a powerful shock before my death.

As I've stated, supposedly it IS painless if done right. I haven't seen enough research to significantly prove otherwise. Anyway, I won't comment on the subject anymore, but you can continue it with me via PM if you wish. I don't want to sidetrack the thread.

[BiggusLaddus]

You have caused me to think the only way your solution could be put into effect is if you were elevated to Absolute Monarch Gordon or in a true anarchy, if you had the means. Which them recalled to me one person's opinion as to the "anarchists" who are now rioting in London. Per Clayton Cramer: "In an anarchy, a bunch of masked kids running through a big city smashing in shop windows would be machine gunned or sold into slavery by the private security firms that would exist in a true anarchy."

If they were real anarchists they would in support of businesses like Topshop for avoiding paying tax.

Actually, if they were real anarchists they wouldn't have been organised enough to arrange a riot in the first place.

[Miker]

2 wrongs will never make a right. No doubt the compulsory stunning methods still insisted upon in all abbatoir facilities this country was preceded by much research too.

Tell you what Miker answer me this and never mind the skewed research work provised by the muslim councils of wherever..... stunning before slaughter is still compulsory for all non religious reasons. Why would that be then?

If you're interested, I'm happy to send you some journal articles I have access to through my university that cover some of these issues in a strictly academic manner. You can make your own conclusions from them.

I can't really answer your question because I'm unaware of the back story behind only those specific forms of slaughter being acceptable. Maybe they're patented?

[waggy]

stop beating about the bush,like my grandad used to say.

IF A DOG WAS BORN IN A STABLE,IT DOES NOT MAKE IT A HORSE

[BiggusLaddus]

stop beating about the bush,like my grandad used to say.

IF A DOG WAS BORN IN A STABLE,IT DOES NOT MAKE IT A HORSE

A sentiment that I'm sure all of the German, Danish, French, Italian and celtic immigrants amongst us will share.

[rebelmswar]

stop beating about the bush,like my grandad used to say.

IF A DOG WAS BORN IN A STABLE,IT DOES NOT MAKE IT A HORSE

Planning to be a Cambodian national anytime soon Waggy?

[SuperCat]

I would like to thank the OP for this post because I was not aware of this until now.

I was going to pop into town with my boys to pick up some new footy boots but I think I will give it a miss.

Being of an asian heritage you might have saved me getting the Super knocked out of my name.

[Glenn]

I'm getting out of the web development business and into troll food, it seems to be a growing market

I'm getting out of the web development business and into troll food, it seems to be a growing market

-Edit. Given the topic and the last post, I should clarify. I meant you're all feeding the troll by replying to waggy. No reflection on KFC (however they prep their food) or the people that eat there.

[Guest linganzi]

a.. Sorry but I cannot associate with either, and I pity you for your inability to differentiate right from wrong.

btw what is wrong with insisting on the humane slaughter of animals in this country?

yes,

a: lets be fair, i doubt blackburns finest were there to take the higher moral ground re animal cruelty

b: dont bore me with some sort of cliched rhetoric about halal slaughter. having been witness to both non halal and halal slaugter ill wager a clean throat slice( which is all it is) causes less distress than the bungling efforts of a cack handed cheap foreign worker who has scant regard for the animal using the electric splice

my dad has a small holding couple of animals,pig went normal way, v distressing, lamb went halal and if there are going to be anymore animals they will go halal

[SAS]

Being of an asian heritage you might have saved me getting the Super knocked out of my name.

Why?

Is someone after you in Blackburn. It's a peaceful protest by Both sides the only violence will be the protestors against the police.

[Stuart]

I would like to thank the OP for this post because I was not aware of this until now.

I was going to pop into town with my boys to pick up some new footy boots but I think I will give it a miss.

Being of an asian heritage you might have saved me getting the Super knocked out of my name.

You're welcome SuperCat but as SAS has said, it's highly unlikely there is any danger to the general public. The demonstrators should be kept well away from the precinct. (Although don't take that as a guarantee!).

You should be able to pop into JJB or JD Sports without encountering any ne'er-do-well types - well apart from the usual Blackburn Saturday shoppers like me.

It's Mothering Sunday this week too so there could be a slightly bigger than usual crowd of shoppers.

[thenodrog]

my dad has a small holding couple of animals,pig went normal way, v distressing, lamb went halal and if there are going to be anymore animals they will go halal

Assuming that you are a non muslim that is illegal.

[Guest linganzi]

Assuming that you are a non muslim that is illegal.

how exactly? both abbatoirs were picked from a certified list by a slaughterhouse inspector we knew.

my religion is irrelevsant. one of the benefits was that the meat could be shared with people of the islamic faith

[SuperCat]

Why?

Is someone after you in Blackburn. It's a peaceful protest by Both sides the only violence will be the protestors against the police.

You're welcome SuperCat but as SAS has said, it's highly unlikely there is any danger to the general public. The demonstrators should be kept well away from the precinct. (Although don't take that as a guarantee!).

You should be able to pop into JJB or JD Sports without encountering any ne'er-do-well types - well apart from the usual Blackburn Saturday shoppers like me.

It's Mothering Sunday this week too so there could be a slightly bigger than usual crowd of shoppers.

Thanks to Jitsy for reminding about Mothers Day. Forgetting that would have been carnage.

I think I have been watching too much of that peaceful protest in London this weekend!

[colin]

Assuming that you are a non muslim that is illegal.

For someone who volunteered to be a sniper on Saturday that's an unusually law-abiding stance.

[philipl]

I am English by birth, British by nationality and at present have the great pleasure and honour to be working with numerous Muslims of several different nationalites.

Haven't got the first clue as to what on earth it is I am supposed to be in need of being defended against (unlike the Irish who twice came within 30 minutes of getting me with their bombs...)

[Al]

I am less concerned over the method of slaughter than the fact that a blessing is given in a religion that is I strongly dislike. If animals are to be killed in that way then it should be labelled in such a way that I can reject it if I wish. The problem is that you just do not know what you are buying.