[Archived] Virgin Lose Rail Franchise

[Grabbi Graeme]

Has been announced by the Dft that the West Coast rail franchise has been awarded to First Group from December 9th, First Group already run Great Western, Capital Connect, Scotrail and Trans Pennine.

I was hoping that Virgin would retain as I have enjoyed working for them for the past 14 years, so I will wait to see what happens next, there have already been rumours of doom and gloom going around work, but I think it's just a case of wait and see.

[only2garners]

As a regular customer rather than employee I have some concerns that First have paid too much for this but I was pleased in hearing the CE this morning, who seems to have recognised that there is scope for filling seats on the West Coast mainline and is planning more seats and more trains. (Maybe this was coming with virgin anyway).

Whilst I am reasonably happy with Virgin, the current situation where the last train from Euston to Preston before peak fares start is 2.30, is ridiculous. They are proposing to reduce anytime fares by 15% on average but also put on more trains including doubling the service from Preston to London. I'm more sceptical of their plans to have direct trains from Blackpool and Bolton to London as they can't run the pendolinos from there.

[M-K]

First operates everything in this part of the country - buses and trains.

A two-mile single fare on the bus is £2.60 (up from £1.10 about eight years ago), and my 15-minute daily commute on the train is £7.30.

I hate First.

[cn174]

Do First buy Virgin's trains off them and paint them new colours? Cos I don't fancy a piddling 3-carriage train all the way to London!

And I'll believe the bit about reducing train prices by 15% when I see it!!

[SouthAussieRover]

If what I experienced travelling on Virgin this Monday is the norm then perhaps it's good they lost the bid.

Overcrowding,nowhere to put luggage and if there was catering you couldn't have got to it without a battle.

[jim mk2]

As a regular customer rather than employee I have some concerns that First have paid too much for this but I was pleased in hearing the CE this morning, who seems to have recognised that there is scope for filling seats on the West Coast mainline and is planning more seats and more trains. (Maybe this was coming with virgin anyway).

Whilst I am reasonably happy with Virgin, the current situation where the last train from Euston to Preston before peak fares start is 2.30, is ridiculous. They are proposing to reduce anytime fares by 15% on average but also put on more trains including doubling the service from Preston to London. I'm more sceptical of their plans to have direct trains from Blackpool and Bolton to London as they can't run the pendolinos from there.

Blackpool and Bolton lines are being electrified in the next few years so Pendolinos will be able to run. As with their Great Western franchise First will provide more seats by converting restaurant cars to ordinary coaches - Virgin is one the few operators to provide sit-down knife and fork meals on alot of their services. The East Coast has also lost its restaurant cars and it's such a shame that this very civilised form of travel is coming to an end.

Branson described First's bid as "insane" but it is the whole franchised railway that is insane. It should be put back together and renationalised. There was nothing wrong with BR except that it was grossly underfunded.

[Grabbi Graeme]

Do First buy Virgin's trains off them and paint them new colours? Cos I don't fancy a piddling 3-carriage train all the way to London!

And I'll believe the bit about reducing train prices by 15% when I see it!!

The trains come with the franchise so First will be running the Pendolino's and Voyagers on the West Coast Services, same as now, as for the ticket price, they have said they will reduce Anytime tickets by 15% for 2 years, which sounds good, my only suspicion with that is that they could change the ticket restrictions regading off peak tickets, which could mean you may then have to buy a Anytime ticket during peak time travel when at the moment you can make the same journey with an off peak ticket, but thats just my opinion.

Blackpool and Bolton lines are being electrified in the next few years so Pendolinos will be able to run. As with their Great Western franchise First will provide more seats by converting restaurant cars to ordinary coaches - Virgin is one the few operators to provide sit-down knife and fork meals on alot of their services. The East Coast has also lost its restaurant cars and it's such a shame that this very civilised form of travel is coming to an end.

Branson described First's bid as "insane" but it is the whole franchised railway that is insane. It should be put back together and renationalised. There was nothing wrong with BR except that it was grossly underfunded.

The fear is at the moment that the shops could be ripped out in favour of more seats/luggage space and replacing it with a trolley, First have said they want enhanced catering on trains with more at seat catering so you can read into that what you want.

On a financial front the bid could be described as insane and there have been cases in the past of companies taking over rail franchises and then handed the keys back as they can't run it for the bid they gave, the East Coast having this happen twice to them.

First are looking to get more bums on seats by introducing more services and are looking to passenger growth and if the fares are cheap enough and they can provide the service then they could actually make it work, I think it is a wait and see at this moment in time, when they do take over in December there wont be much change apart from a different uniform and some different coloured trains.

[Paul]

I've used the trains a lot over the past year and to my surprise grew to like Virgin as I'm not a Branson fan. Overall I found the Preston or Manchester services very good so I'm sorry to see them go. My one gripe with Virgin is/was if you turn up without a bike reservation you won't get on.

I used Transpennine to commute Chorley / Manchester for the last year. Overall I like the company, decent trains and good staff. However I heard the CE on the radio yesterday and in reply to his interview I would suggest he addresses the chronic overcrowding each morning and evening first and foremost. Some days it is so bad people can't physically board the train. I think we have to wait and see on this one.

Mind you never been turned away with my bike by First!!!

[Kamy100]

I use the West Coast Mainline extensively. To begin with Virgin were a nightmare, their trains were unreliable, prices uncompetitive and customer service poor. However over the last 6 years they have improved hugely and now offer a superb service. Their trains are now mostly on time, if you book in advance you can get some absolute bargain and customer service has improved. Also their trains are excellent, as Jim says their restaurant service is a very pleasent way to travel.

I willing to give First a chance but I fear that they won't be able to offer the service nor prices that Virgin currently offer.

[Biddy]

I honestly can't believe First have been allowed to get another franchise and at a stupid price that can only put fares up and try and find as much cost cutting as possible.

I travelled from Slough to Paddington during the days that Thames Trains converted to First Great Western. What an utter shambles that company is. They launched with a gusto of promises of more trains and more capacity. About the only thing they did achieve was to repaint the trains. Slowly they actually cut services or added yet more stops to the supposedly "quick" trains just to cram yet more people into the door areas. utterly awful experience and one I hope I don't have to endure again.

[only2garners]

Blackpool and Bolton lines are being electrified in the next few years so Pendolinos will be able to run.

After typing my comment I realised that they probably planned to offer Blackpool and Bolton services when the Manchester-Blackpool line was electrified, but I see in the paper this morning they are suggesting that the Blackpool service will start next year.

Some of the comments above have referred to poor service a few years ago on the WCML and to current overcrowding on the Preston-Manchester line, but both of those issues are more down to the infrastructure issues rather than the operator. Virgin service was rubbish when they first started but since the upgrading of the line has been finished the speed and frequency have greatly increased (now down to 2 hours Preston to London from what used to be 3 hours+ and an hourly service). The Blackpool-Manchester line will have faster and more frequent trains when it's electrified although capacity will still be squeezed by only having two lines into Piccadilly for those trains and trains from Southport, Wigan, Liverpool, Chester and North Wales.

Reducing advance fares is I think more about evening up the gap between peak and off-peak fares, so it might be fair to assume that off-peak fares will be increased and/or reduced in availability as well. Set against that though is their plan to double the service from Preston, presumably to a half hourly service - that won't work unless ticket prices are reasonable as they will be running a lot of empty seats. They are also saying that there will be "increased connectivity" to places like Nuneaton and Milton Keynes, which is management speak for more trains stopping there, with presumably consequent slightly slower service. For me that's fine - I am relaxed about trains taking say 2.5 hours by stopping more if it means that I will more easily be able to travel at a reasonable price.

Reducing the "restaurant car" service I presume means converting some of the First Class seats to Standard. All First Class seats have table service food, although the offering now is a long way from what it used to be. Still nice but hardly a gastronomic treat. Converting First to Standard also seems sensible - the pendolinos were set up with a lot of First class seats on the assumption that business users would fill them and not be too bothered about price.That was the case until the recession when companies are either not moving their staff up and down or are making them sit in the cheap seats, so we often now have trains with hardly anyone in the First class seats and packed Standrad carriages.

[jim mk2]

Oh for the days when there was one single national operator offering uniform fares across the country when you could just turn up on the day and pay a reasonable price for your ticket with no need to book in advance. BR had its faults - mainly that was starved of investment - but travelling by train then was an enjoyable experience. The Major govt's privatisation of rail was one privatisation too far - a clear case of a government being in power too long and doing more damage than good.

[LeChuck]

The fine details of this deal are pretty disturbing. First obviously won this contract by offering £5.5bn more.

However, Virgin's deal would actually have seen the Government better off up until 2020, but after that First are rather miraculously going to find a shedload of extra money to make up this extra. Where that will come from is anyone's guess.

Given the history of these deals, where there are at least 2 instances of companies going bust and cancelling the final years of their contracts at great expense to the Government, it does seem incredibly likely that this will happen again.

Privatisation isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the way we are choosing companies to run things certainly is.

[Paul]

Some of the comments above have referred to poor service a few years ago on the WCML and to current overcrowding on the Preston-Manchester line, but both of those issues are more down to the infrastructure issues rather than the operator.

Agree with the bulk of your post John except this bit. I commuted Chorley / Picadilly (with bike!) for the past year. Of the four trains departing Chorley between 06.53 and 07.56, three are First Transpennine and one is Northern. From memory the Norhern has six coaches and the Transpennine three, possibly one if those is a six.

On this line the only six coach Transpennine trains are those which split at Preston for Barrow / Glasgow. At most this is one an hour.

I think it's reasonable to say Transpennine could reduce congestion by doubling the length of the three coaches for the 07.00 to 08.30 and 16.30 - 18.00 periods. It would cost relatively little and greatly improve the journey for passengers.

These trains are occasionally full by Bolton and frequently so full at Salford Crescent no one can board............mind you those folk should be cycling in to Manchester!!!?!

Overall the service is good but the massive rush hour overcrowding should be resolved simply by doubling the train length.

[only2garners]

Good point but this assumes they have 3 car units spare to use. I don't profess to understand how buying extra capacity would be funded under the franchise system but suspect it won't be as straightforward as just placing an order for some more. Along with all transport systems the pinch points are for two rush hour periods a day when lots of capacity is needed but any rail operator won't be able to fill the same capacity in the middle of the day, in the evenings and at weekends. That makes buying more capacity a lot less economic.

[jim mk2]

In the old days railways had spare stock in sidings for use in peak periods, for relief trains and for use in the holidays. Accountants of course deemed that a waste of money and now the TOCs have enough stock to provide the timetabled service laid down by the DfT but no extra - hence the overcrowding. It is ironic that the "privatised" railway is in fact more state-controlled than BR ever was because it is micro-managed by the DfT at Whitehall whereas state-controlled BR was given a lump sum of money each year and left to get on with it.

[Baz]

Reducing their on the day prices would increase revenue. Last time I had to travel to London short notice it was £291 open return, which is a ridiculous amount of money.

The CEO has said they plan to use automated platforms (I.e. you cannot get on the platform without a valid ticket), put on more trains and have roughly the same number of staff, so you can see where they plan to recover the money. The points Le Chuck makes about giving they keys back in 2020 is a good one though. I'd hope the DFT would have something written into the contract about that though, surely they would have learnt from previous errors?

[only2garners]

Reducing their on the day prices would increase revenue. Last time I had to travel to London short notice it was £291 open return, which is a ridiculous amount of money.

The CEO has said they plan to use automated platforms (I.e. you cannot get on the platform without a valid ticket), put on more trains and have roughly the same number of staff, so you can see where they plan to recover the money. The points Le Chuck makes about giving they keys back in 2020 is a good one though. I'd hope the DFT would have something written into the contract about that though, surely they would have learnt from previous errors?

My understanding is that an early termination would put First's other franchises at risk as well. There is also a bond but I don't porfess to understand what that is designed to do.

[philipl]

I have travelled East Coast Main Line, Hull Trains, Southern, South Western, Midland, Greater Anglia, Chiltern, First Great Western and Virgin extensively recently.

Virgin are the best and First Great Western by far the worst.

Horrible decision and First won't see the franchise through because they are massively over-paying.

[thenodrog]

In the old days railways had spare stock in sidings for use in peak periods, for relief trains and for use in the holidays. Accountants of course deemed that a waste of money and now the TOCs have enough stock to provide the timetabled service laid down by the DfT but no extra - hence the overcrowding. It is ironic that the "privatised" railway is in fact more state-controlled than BR ever was because it is micro-managed by the DfT at Whitehall whereas state-controlled BR was given a lump sum of money each year and left to get on with it.

The good old days eh? ........... Unfortunately this soon became the norm as the Trades Unions way exceeded their brief and attempted to become politicians.

http://www.britishpa...il-strike-chaos

Thankfully St Margaret turned up and slayed the Dragon.

These trains are occasionally full by Bolton and frequently so full at Salford Crescent no one can board............mind you those folk should be cycling in to Manchester!!!?!

Maybe if they ripped up the tracks at salford and replaced them with tarmac they could!

It's bad enough driving around Manchester I'd hate to cycle around the place.

[jim mk2]

The good old days eh?...........

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/rail-strike-chaos

Yup, just like the present day.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2175874/London-2012-Olympics-Train-drivers-stage-days-strikes-Games.html

[thenodrog]

Yup, just like the present day.

http://www.dailymail...ikes-Games.html

In sympathising I will assume that you are missing the Iron Lady too Jim.

[jim mk2]

No sympathy at all. All workers have the right to withdraw their labour. You know what I think of the twisted old hag and the damage she did to this country. One example is this great "car society" (her words) she helped to create and her refusal to invest in public transport for which we are all now paying the price in congestion and sky-high fuel prices.

[adopted scouser]

Can I just speak up for the Manchester Metrolink ? I drive everywhere, but working in Altrincham I often get the met into town, or across to the Quays and Media City. Clean, frequent and relatively inexpensive, it's been an eye opener. Taking the section from Cornbrook to media city watching queues of cars it's hard not to feel smug, and I received an example of customer service from them last week that would put the rail networks to shame.

[jim mk2]

Manchester leads, and the rest of the country follow. Tram networks have been built in Sheffield and Nottingham and are expanding, while Leeds has plans for trolleybuses. Is it too much to hope for Blackburn's trams to return one day ? They used to run from the town centre to Ewood on match days.