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22 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

If you really believe that then some reading of history is urgently required.

Go on then, what was so much worse about Hitler than Trump prior to the 1923 Putsch?

There's very little to separate them. For simplicity:

Go to the Adolf Hitler wikipedia page: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler

Pretend you know nothing at all about Hitler, and read the 'Entry into politics' section up to (but not including) the Beer Hall Putsch (which I consider a reasonable cut-off as comparison to the US Capitol riot).

Both men at that point:

Had 4 years active in politics.

Were on their way to Demagoguery.

Adept at using populist themes in speeches, including scapegoating minority ethnic groups for their followers' economic hardships.

Understand crowd psychology, using personal charisma to their benefit.

That's literally ALL I'm referring to. Nothing afterwards. The only real difference between the two is that Trump has already held all the power he could and been unable to do anything with it (probably a sound advocacy of US democracy tbh).

Edited by Mike E
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1 hour ago, Mike E said:

Go on then, what was so much worse about Hitler than Trump prior to the 1923 Putsch?

There's very little to separate them. For simplicity:

Go to the Adolf Hitler wikipedia page: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler

Pretend you know nothing at all about Hitler, and read the 'Entry into politics' section up to (but not including) the Beer Hall Putsch (which I consider a reasonable cut-off as comparison to the US Capitol riot).

Both men at that point:

Had 4 years active in politics.

Were on their way to Demagoguery.

Adept at using populist themes in speeches, including scapegoating minority ethnic groups for their followers' economic hardships.

Understand crowd psychology, using personal charisma to their benefit.

That's literally ALL I'm referring to. Nothing afterwards. The only real difference between the two is that Trump has already held all the power he could and been unable to do anything with it (probably a sound advocacy of US democracy tbh).

I think there are some paralells. But by 1921 Hitler had setup and led explicitly fascist and racist political party (NSDAP), a violent paramilitary organisation (the Sturmabteilung) and written a lot of virulent racist and anti democratic material. Trumps been sympathetic to fascist/racist organisations but he's not directly led them (well unless you count the Republican party, but it has many non white members and does explicitly state it is not racist unlike the NSDAP). While he got the crowd riled up to go to the Capitol,  he didn't actually instruct them to overthrow the government, or lead them through the front door and declare a revolution like Hitler did at the Putsch.

That said much of what Trump has done defies what seems possible, I am sure if anyone said a bunch of his supporters would storm congress a month ago most of us would all of had a hearty laugh, so maybe one day we will see Trump or his family step over the line and become card carrying members of a fascist organization. 

That that even seems possible is staggering really.

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23 minutes ago, joey_big_nose said:

I think there are some paralells. But by 1921 Hitler had setup and led explicitly fascist and racist political party (NSDAP), a violent paramilitary organisation (the Sturmabteilung) and written a lot of virulent racist and anti democratic material. Trumps been sympathetic to fascist/racist organisations but he's not directly led them (well unless you count the Republican party, but it has many non white members and does explicitly state it is not racist unlike the NSDAP). While he got the crowd riled up to go to the Capitol,  he didn't actually instruct them to overthrow the government, or lead them through the front door and declare a revolution like Hitler did at the Putsch.

That said much of what Trump has done defies what seems possible, I am sure if anyone said a bunch of his supporters would storm congress a month ago most of us would all of had a hearty laugh, so maybe one day we will see Trump or his family step over the line and become card carrying members of a fascist organization. 

That that even seems possible is staggering really.

True, the difference seems to be intent, with (imo) similar outcomes.

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3 hours ago, joey_big_nose said:

@Bigdoggsteel- see above for a more detailed thoughtful post. 

@Dreams of 1995 - the difference between the far right and far left in the US is the Toronto organiser you use as an example, or similar radical left people, are not elected members of congress. They are activists. The Republican party on the other hand have members of congress with very radical right views, who wish to destroy democratically elected government, including their president who just left office.

I am not saying the left could never be like that, it could, it has been and is in countries around the world. But they don't actually have people in congress in the US of that nature today. So it's not really comparable.

Well, that would be the difference if we compared their influence and not their ideals.

 

But I do agree with the principle in that Trump and his lot are, at the moment, more or a threat to society than a small portion of the BLM movement are. The “populist right” is quite a bit demographic whereas the left who want to dismantle capitalism are quite a minority. 

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For anyone that thinks that Trump’s removal from office will stop moronic posts by US politicians I give you Ted Cruz’s tweet about Biden authorising the US rejoining the Paris climate accord. He said that Biden cared more about the citizens of Paris than workers in Pittsburgh. You couldn’t make it up.

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1 hour ago, only2garners said:

For anyone that thinks that Trump’s removal from office will stop moronic posts by US politicians I give you Ted Cruz’s tweet about Biden authorising the US rejoining the Paris climate accord. He said that Biden cared more about the citizens of Paris than workers in Pittsburgh. You couldn’t make it up.

It certainly won't. Cruz and his moronic stablemate Hawley are both far too clever to spout such tripe but they do so to make themselves look good to mindless voters who get excited over words like "leftist", and "radical".

Another member of Congress tried to bring a gun in yesterday. Madness. Yet it plays well with their voters.

A lot of Republicans are trying to whitewash the riot from a few weeks ago. It needs serious attention and should not be swept under the carpet. It was very lucky to have not been a bloodbath with lawmakers amongst the dead.

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10 hours ago, Ewood Ace said:

As I said I don't think George W Bush was a fascist he was a very evil man but not a fascist.

It was you who brought him up!

Its a waste of time arguing whether Trump is a Fascist or not, there is no single definition.

However he has much in common with previous Fascist leaders and I don't think there is much doubt about that, is there?

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Trump is a fascist by any measure of the use of that word.

 

The FBI are charging numerous members of the Oath Keepers- you might remember a paramilitary clad group going in single file up the steps after the rioters had broken into the Capitol.

The FBI charge sheet cites that they were receiving instructions detailing the classified lay out of the security chambers under the Capitol, how to get to the third level down which is where the Senators and Congressmen had been evacuated and then

SEAL IT AND GAS THEM.

Yes the intention was to mass murder the Senate and Congress.

Obviously the FBI know who was sending those instructions but they are not named.

 

The New York Times are reporting that after the Trump appointed Acting Attorney General refused to overturn the vote in Georgia, Trump held a Celebrity Apprentice audition among his stooges  working in the DoJ to decide which one of them would be appointed to replace the Acting AG when Trump fired him. 

Trump ran out of time to do this before 1/6.

The entire DoJ senior staff not appointed by Trump had agreed to resign if Trump made the switch of the AG.

Since this was revealed by the New York Times, the Republican Congressman identified as the person who had introduced Trump to the guy who won Apprentice Acting Attorney General has tweeted denying it was him and any involvement with the "failed coup"

Yes a GOP Congressman called what Trump did a FAILED COUP.

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3 hours ago, philipl said:

Trump is a fascist by any measure of the use of that word.

 

The FBI are charging numerous members of the Oath Keepers- you might remember a paramilitary clad group going in single file up the steps after the rioters had broken into the Capitol.

The FBI charge sheet cites that they were receiving instructions detailing the classified lay out of the security chambers under the Capitol, how to get to the third level down which is where the Senators and Congressmen had been evacuated and then

SEAL IT AND GAS THEM.

Yes the intention was to mass murder the Senate and Congress.

Obviously the FBI know who was sending those instructions but they are not named.

 

The New York Times are reporting that after the Trump appointed Acting Attorney General refused to overturn the vote in Georgia, Trump held a Celebrity Apprentice audition among his stooges  working in the DoJ to decide which one of them would be appointed to replace the Acting AG when Trump fired him. 

Trump ran out of time to do this before 1/6.

The entire DoJ senior staff not appointed by Trump had agreed to resign if Trump made the switch of the AG.

Since this was revealed by the New York Times, the Republican Congressman identified as the person who had introduced Trump to the guy who won Apprentice Acting Attorney General has tweeted denying it was him and any involvement with the "failed coup"

Yes a GOP Congressman called what Trump did a FAILED COUP.

I agree Phillip. Excusing Trump from being labelled a fascist on the grounds that he was too incompetent to mount a successful coup is real woolly thinking. I suppose only real fascists get results. I'm reminded of the right wing attempt to overthrow the newly democratic Spanish government shortly after the death of Franco. That attempt failed fortunately and Spain remains a democracy but the conspirators were real fascists make no mistake.

We got invited around for tea by an old friend of my late father in law out there one day. The guy was an old time Guardia Civil so I was a bit on edge to start with. What really shook me was in pride of place he had photographs of him receiving a medal from a group of Nazi officers along with the framed medal, which looked like an Iron Cross.

It turned out he'd been in the Spanish Blue Division out on the Eastern Front in WW 2. I gave my father in law a bollocking when we left and we never went back there !

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11 hours ago, 47er said:

It was you who brought him up!

Its a waste of time arguing whether Trump is a Fascist or not, there is no single definition.

However he has much in common with previous Fascist leaders and I don't think there is much doubt about that, is there?

I merely asked if you thought Bush was a fascist because I'd have thought as you believe Trump is you'd have thought that Bush was one given some of the things he did. But I suppose that just shows that the 'Trump derangement syndrome' that people talk about is real.

8 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I agree Phillip. Excusing Trump from being labelled a fascist on the grounds that he was too incompetent to mount a successful coup is real woolly thinking. I suppose only real fascists get results. I'm reminded of the right wing attempt to overthrow the newly democratic Spanish government shortly after the death of Franco. That attempt failed fortunately and Spain remains a democracy but the conspirators were real fascists make no mistake.

He didn't even mount a coup of any sort. If he'd have wanted to mount a coup then he would not have told his supporters when they were inside the Capitol building to go home. I don't think any Trump supporters were planning a coup either they simply went they simply went to the Capitol to protest the result and due to a complete failure in the security were just allowed to walk inside.

You could tell when they got inside there was no planned coup they were in the house and senate rooms and in the end simply walked out and went home. If you are conducting a coup then you don't do that when you occupy the building where power rests.

If you really wanted to see what a fascist coup looks like then have a look at the events in Kiev in 2014 which was backed by the Obama/Biden administration.

Some of the events that have happened in Catalonia over the last few years would call into question just how much of a democracy Spain really is.

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43 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

I merely asked if you thought Bush was a fascist because I'd have thought as you believe Trump is you'd have thought that Bush was one given some of the things he did. But I suppose that just shows that the 'Trump derangement syndrome' that people talk about is real.

He didn't even mount a coup of any sort. If he'd have wanted to mount a coup then he would not have told his supporters when they were inside the Capitol building to go home. I don't think any Trump supporters were planning a coup either they simply went they simply went to the Capitol to protest the result and due to a complete failure in the security were just allowed to walk inside.

You could tell when they got inside there was no planned coup they were in the house and senate rooms and in the end simply walked out and went home. If you are conducting a coup then you don't do that when you occupy the building where power rests.

If you really wanted to see what a fascist coup looks like then have a look at the events in Kiev in 2014 which was backed by the Obama/Biden administration.

Some of the events that have happened in Catalonia over the last few years would call into question just how much of a democracy Spain really is.

Sorry, this is a ridiculous post which flies in the face of the facts.

Even Republican Congressmen are calling it a failed coup.

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Just now, philipl said:

Sorry, this is a ridiculous post which flies in the face of the facts.

Even Republican Congressmen are calling it a failed coup.

What sort of coup is it where the people conducting the so called coup get into the senate and house but then simply walk out of the building and go home?

If it is at all possible for you just take a step back from your anti-Trump hysteria for one second and think about it sensibly and you will see that there was no attempted coup.

As I said if you really want to see what a fascist coup really look like take a look at the coup in Kiev in 2014 which was backed by the Obama/Biden administration.  

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1 hour ago, Ewood Ace said:

He didn't even mount a coup of any sort. If he'd have wanted to mount a coup then he would not have told his supporters when they were inside the Capitol building to go home. I don't think any Trump supporters were planning a coup either they simply went they simply went to the Capitol to protest the result and due to a complete failure in the security were just allowed to walk inside.

 

Please explain why they were carrying plastic restraints and shouting "Hang Pence".

You really think Pence and Ilhan Omar and AOC would have escaped with their lives?

Trump, when faced with the enormity of what he'd unleashed chickened out to save his own skin.

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14 minutes ago, 47er said:

Trump, when faced with the enormity of what he'd unleashed chickened out to save his own skin.

One minute Trump is this ruthless fascist behind a coup and the next minute he's chickened out at a bit of violence. People are so hysterical about Trump that they can't decide what he is other than the fact they hate him.

 

14 minutes ago, 47er said:

You really think Pence and Ilhan Omar and AOC would have escaped with their lives?

You can never say what one lone lunatic might have done but I don't think that 99.9% would have attempted to kill anyone. It's the same with the BLM protests (which I happen to support) when they were protesting outside of the White House if they had been able to get inside and get to Trump then again I don't think that 99.9% of them would have attempted to kill Trump but there again is no telling what one individual lunatic might do.

Edited by Ewood Ace
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Also conveniently ignores that the plot by the Oath Keepers to gas the area in which Congresspeople and Senators were being evacuated to.

Suddenly it's all about 'what a few lone nutters might do' in an attempt to play down the full scale of what happened.

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3 minutes ago, Mike E said:

Also conveniently ignores that the plot by the Oath Keepers to gas the area in which Congresspeople and Senators were being evacuated to.

Suddenly it's all about 'what a few lone nutters might do' in an attempt to play down the full scale of what happened.

Not playing it down just looking at it from a rational perspective rather than the clouded hysterical view that some people have.

As I have said to other posters if you really want to see what a fascist coup looks like then take a look at the one that took place in Kiev in 2014 which the Obama/Biden administration backed.

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1 hour ago, 47er said:

Pence and Ilhan Omar and AOC would have escaped with their lives?

Pence has always looked 100 times more presidential than Trump, not hard I know....

I have to say he's comes out of this entire mess with my respect and I hope the respect of the American people. He wouldn't bow to Trumps baby antics and upheld his oath, deserves respect in my opinion. 

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3 hours ago, Mike E said:

Also conveniently ignores that the plot by the Oath Keepers to gas the area in which Congresspeople and Senators were being evacuated to.

Suddenly it's all about 'what a few lone nutters might do' in an attempt to play down the full scale of what happened.

Evidence? Or more hysterical nonsense?

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On 22/01/2021 at 15:07, joey_big_nose said:

@Bigdoggsteel- see above for a more detailed thoughtful post. 

@Dreams of 1995 - the difference between the far right and far left in the US is the Toronto organiser you use as an example, or similar radical left people, are not elected members of congress. They are activists. The Republican party on the other hand have members of congress with very radical right views, who wish to destroy democratically elected government, including their president who just left office.

I am not saying the left could never be like that, it could, it has been and is in countries around the world. But they don't actually have people in congress in the US of that nature today. So it's not really comparable.

Different subject. Read Glenn Greenwald for an intro on the left/right split in America. Also Niall Stanage in the hill, very easy to follow. 

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3 hours ago, Ewood Ace said:

Not playing it down just looking at it from a rational perspective rather than the clouded hysterical view that some people have.

As I have said to other posters if you really want to see what a fascist coup looks like then take a look at the one that took place in Kiev in 2014 which the Obama/Biden administration backed.

Are you on this planet?

I have many dear Ukrainian friends and they were ecstatically happy to see/help the Maidan.

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3 hours ago, Mike E said:

Also conveniently ignores that the plot by the Oath Keepers to gas the area in which Congresspeople and Senators were being evacuated to.

Suddenly it's all about 'what a few lone nutters might do' in an attempt to play down the full scale of what happened.

Have a read of Glenn Greenwald for the real ,non biased take on it. You won't get much of that from the MSM.  

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5 hours ago, philipl said:

Sorry, this is a ridiculous post which flies in the face of the facts.

Even Republican Congressmen are calling it a failed coup.

Some are ,some aren't. Don't forget the "attack" was on where the politicians do be. Hence they took it personally and are out to hammer Trump. Realistically it was a few misfits who took things too far. Including the cop who shot the woman, because from the video it's makes no sense why he did that, there was a SWAT team behind her. The whole thing got massively out of hand because the cops let them in. It wasn't an insurrection or a coup. People are just losing the run of themselves, heavily aided by the media. 

It's as if the media are just hoping this escalates and there's more incidents. Where are all the violent protests they were saying were going to happen since? Did they just decide to stay home and watch Netflix? 

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On 22/01/2021 at 14:43, Mike E said:

Indeed, that's why I didn't compare Trump to Hitler at his worst, and why I compared him to the Hitler of 1923.

In the hope that it's where Trump's lunacy ends, and he becomes but a mere footnote in World History rather than being allowed another term to allow his ghastly politics to take hold in the US.

There is as much to 'criticise Trump for' now as there was of Hitler in 1923. That's a perfectly valid comparison imo. I'm not comparing Trump to the Hitler of 1945, yet it seems to be all you and BDS can take from my posts.

It's baffling to me that people can read things that aren't there.

Because you are comparing him to Hitler. It's extreme. Then you say, well no I mean in 1923, not later. Ok, but it's still extreme because you are still comparing him to Hitler. Anyone who does that, knows what they are doing. If you have to start breaking down the comparison and saying specific years, maybe just think of afferent example. 

There are many things he was doing up 1923 that are far ,far more extreme than anything Trump did. 

As was mentioned earlier, these Hitler comparisons just weaken other arguements. 

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More news of the lovelable, cuddly, Donald's, seditious antics, he's a card!

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/23/trump-florida-white-house-washington-plot-report

Donald Trump was at his Florida resort on Saturday, beginning post-presidency life while Joe Biden settled into the White House. But in Washington and beyond, the chaos of the 45th president’s final days in office continued to throw out damaging aftershocks.
In yet another earth-shaking report, the New York Times said Trump plotted with an official at the Department of Justice to fire the acting attorney general, then force Georgia Republicans to overturn his defeat in that state.

 

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13 minutes ago, philipl said:

Are you on this planet?

I have many dear Ukrainian friends and they were ecstatically happy to see/help the Maidan.

Perhaps they were happy, perhaps those who took power in the coup were more of their political persuasion. There will also be people with 'dear friends' who will have been pleased to see the events that took place in the Capitol. So I'm not really sure what the relevance your 'dear friends' have.

The fact remains that an angry armed far right mob overthrew a democratically elected government just months before a new election was due and scores died in the process. If it is the fact they are fascist you are disputing (because surely no one could argue that it was an armed coup to overthrow the elected government) then you need to do some reading on those took positions of power after the coup.

 

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