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Simply put, without the NHS: I'd never have been born (I'm an IVF baby). I'd have died in the womb (as did the triplets I was supposed to be part of). I'd have died at some point immedi

I didn't really want to get involved in this thread again, as emotions are very high, but I can't stand by and continue to be abused without putting my side across.  I'll try and quantify my view

And I’m going to have a Spanish beer from a Belgian glass, wearing an Italian band t-shirt ordered from a German website, and listening to some Bulgarian europop. You and the rest can stick Brexi

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1 hour ago, Paul said:

Can someone then please provide me with facts regarding the benefits of leaving the EU. No waffle about new trade deals etc. Just factual benefits.

Meanwhile the quote below is Robert Peston's daily report:

"A shocked Cabinet was today told of Department of Transport contingency plans to own or lease roll-on roll-off lorry ferries to make sure vital supplies of goods, food and medicines continue to reach these shores if the UK leaves the EU without a deal. 

According to work commissioned by Chris Grayling, the transport secretary, a possible French decision to reintroduce customs checks could reduce freight coming into the UK via Dover and the Channel Tunnel by around 85%. 

So the UK would in those circumstances have to bring in vital imports to other ports such as the Port of London, Tilbury and Liverpool. 

The proposed scheme is called GOOL, or Government Owned or Operated Logistics. 

“It’s the kind of stuff governments do in a time of war” said one member of the cabinet. “It is as serious as that”. 

That said the best precedent for the plan was the creation by Clement Atlee’s Labour government in 1948 of the National Freight Corporation, which was originally known as British Road Services. 

In the case of GOOL, three options are being examined: buying ships, leasing them or converting military vessels. 

I am told the military option is thought to be the least viable. 

“This was the bombshell in a meeting that contained lots of dull stuff” said another minister. 

He added that perhaps it would be the “sobering moment” that showed colleagues why a no-deal Brexit would be “so damaging”."

Strange that this comes out now though. You could almost believe that May and Raab are putting the pressure on MPs to vote for her deal, rather than no deal - which is what they are determined will be the only votes on offer. 

Govt dictating to Parliament. Isn’t that anti-democratic?

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Well the EU might accept some kind of fudge where we leave the EU but remain in some kind of customs “arrangement” AKA customs union until and if we sort out Ireland, in which case she would give Parl a my deal or no deal vote.

Edited by den
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I very much doubt the EU will accept any sort of fudge. It's been clear since day one protecting the member states and in particular the single market has and will remain key for the EU.

And the benefits of leaving the EU are???????

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Thanks for the map chaddy. Confirmation that brexit threatens the integrity of the UK. 

A vote to make the poor poorer, limit opportunities of the young, threaten the economy and break up the UK. Well done, and thanks

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Times writer and brexiteer Melanie Philips on TV this morning, says we can get around the huge road chaos at the ports by waving through vehicles. She argues that in times of emergency - which she says this would be - it would be the right thing to do. Her argument is that the road blocks need not happen.

so there you are, a high profile brexiteer saying we should abandon custom checks at the border. They are getting increasingly desperate. Farage actually made an appearance at Brussels this morning where he called the British civil service “the enemy within” - more desperation.

on top of that we have a concerted effort to argue leaving the EU on WTO rules would be - according to Nigel Evans, no problem at all. Don’t remember vote leave arguing for that during the referendum.

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3 minutes ago, den said:

Times writer and brexiteer Melanie Philips on TV this morning, says we can get around the huge road chaos at the ports by waving through vehicles. She argues that in times of emergency - which she says this would be - it would be the right thing to do. Her argument is that the road blocks need not happen.

so there you are, a high profile brexiteer saying we should abandon custom checks at the border. They are getting increasingly desperate. Farage actually made an appearance at Brussels this morning where he called the British civil service “the enemy within” - more desperation.

on top of that we have a concerted effort to argue leaving the EU on WTO rules would be - according to Nigel Evans, no problem at all. Don’t remember vote leave arguing for that during the referendum.

Hardly any nation in the world survives on WTO rules. They nearly all have individual or collective (often regional) agreements.

Point is it takes time, often years to work through all the detail, in the meantime you try to get by as best you can with duties on your exports.

Nigel Evans is either ignorant or dishonest.

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This is a very simple explanation as to why we have to have a Final say on whatever deal is eventually agreed on. It's from the former Channel 4 Italain football presenter James Richardson: -

"In the last two years we have learnt a lot about the realities of Brexiting. But in the meantime, while the politicians have been happily changing their minds, changing their promises, changing their positions on what Brexit will actually mean, we’ve been told we’re allowed no further say in the matter, that it would be undemocratic. Really?”

It was quoted in an article in the Independent yesterday by Tom Peck. He then goes on to outline all the changes that Brexiteers have made since the Referendum. One classic was that Nadine Dorries tweeted 4 days after the vote that "The Norway model has always been my preference" She now describes MPs from her own party who support that as traitors. 

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On 24/10/2018 at 13:51, only2garners said:

This is a very simple explanation as to why we have to have a Final say on whatever deal is eventually agreed on. It's from the former Channel 4 Italain football presenter James Richardson: -

"In the last two years we have learnt a lot about the realities of Brexiting. But in the meantime, while the politicians have been happily changing their minds, changing their promises, changing their positions on what Brexit will actually mean, we’ve been told we’re allowed no further say in the matter, that it would be undemocratic. Really?”

It was quoted in an article in the Independent yesterday by Tom Peck. He then goes on to outline all the changes that Brexiteers have made since the Referendum. One classic was that Nadine Dorries tweeted 4 days after the vote that "The Norway model has always been my preference" She now describes MPs from her own party who support that as traitors. 

Nadine Dorries who had to ask the Tory Mps WhatsApp chat group what the single market was, after the referendum.

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On 21/10/2018 at 22:08, jim mk2 said:

 

Chilling piece in the Guardian on Dominic Raab from 2012. 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/aug/22/britannia-unchained-rise-of-new-tory-right

Wearing jeans, the 38-year-old backbencher is talking – warily – about transforming the British workplace. He thinks current employment law offers "excessive protections" to workers. "The talented and hard working have nothing to fear. People who are coasting – it should be easier to let them go, to give the unemployed a chance. It is a delicate balancing act, but it should be decided in favour of the latter."

 

This is the right wing Tory agenda behind Brexit - the type of Britain the likes of Raab, Rees-Mogg, Redwood and Davis want to see, one in which workers have no rights and live in fear of the sack,  and employers rule with a rod of iron.

Chaddy and his ilk have a shock coming.......

THIS is the agenda of Brexit.

Rape and pillage.

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It is Philipl.

Liam Fox is in it for the same reasons - as are all the right wing Tories. 

FOX ....

 “It is too difficult to hire and fire, and too expensive to take on new employees. It is intellectually unsustainable to believe that workplace rights should remain untouchable while output and employment are clearly cyclical.”

https://realbusiness.co.uk/liam-fox-its-too-difficult-to-hire-and-fire/

 

well hiring people isn’t anywhere near as difficult as sacking them is it!  They want to strip rights from citizens and workers. Unbelievably folk vote for it. What exactly is good about taking away mine and other people’s right to freedom of movement? It’s a right that we should treasure. The EU won’t be stripping away the rights of their members that’s for sure.

How stupid are some folk?

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Reading those qoutes from Raab and Fox, it is funny they want to hire and fire so much and yet they'd be dead against say their constituency party members being able to give them the boot so easily and replace them in their safe seats. To talk of coasting whilst most MPs are in seats that would elect a cow with the runs if it stood for party X or y is a bit much.

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https://www.thejournal.ie/theresa-may-wedded-to-the-idea-of-irish-sea-border-says-dups-foster-4330964-Nov2018/

May would be better off not letting the tale wag the dog in this instance. The DUP are extremely backwards and bitter people. I find the whole relationship so weird. It just shows that politicians want one thing and that is power at all costs. 

Do any of you know of a Andrew Bridgen? He thinks that all English people are entitled to an Irish passport. You have to laugh really. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/irish-passport-england-uk-andrew-bridgen-tory-mp-brexit-border-eu-a8587286.html 

Interestingly there are currently 300,000 English people living over here in the Republic. I wonder how many will apply for a passport. Can ye do the dual passport thing? I know some countries you have to give up your original one first. 

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On 21/10/2018 at 21:08, jim mk2 said:

 

 

Chilling piece in the Guardian on Dominic Raab from 2012. 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/aug/22/britannia-unchained-rise-of-new-tory-right

Wearing jeans, the 38-year-old backbencher is talking – warily – about transforming the British workplace. He thinks current employment law offers "excessive protections" to workers. "The talented and hard working have nothing to fear. People who are coasting – it should be easier to let them go, to give the unemployed a chance. It is a delicate balancing act, but it should be decided in favour of the latter."

 

This is the right wing Tory agenda behind Brexit - the type of Britain the likes of Raab, Rees-Mogg, Redwood and Davis want to see, one in which workers have no rights and live in fear of the sack,  and employers rule with a rod of iron.

Chaddy and his ilk have a shock coming.......

The one piece of good news will be that when we finally reach the Brexit promised land and employment laws are changed that the talented and hard working have nothing to fear. Those that have only just worked out that the UK is an island however........

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2 minutes ago, only2garners said:

Anyone who has Irish parents or I assume grandparents can apply for an Irish passport as well at the UK one and many thousands have done so. Those in Northern Ireland can have both anyway.

We have gotten plenty of football players over the years going down that route! 

Ya, handy up there being able to have both. 

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On 24/10/2018 at 11:57, den said:

Times writer and brexiteer Melanie Philips on TV this morning, says we can get around the huge road chaos at the ports by waving through vehicles. She argues that in times of emergency - which she says this would be - it would be the right thing to do. Her argument is that the road blocks need not happen.

So she is saying that it will be a constant emergency? That's mad 

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