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28 minutes ago, 1864roverite said:

The current disaster is caused because MP's have put themselves above the electorate. Add this to Mp's who have gone against the wishes of their constituents and what they voted and we have this turmoil and division across the country. Then add Jimmy Krankies ideals north fo the border and this is just a recipe for incompetence. I would never vote labour ever and I have not agreed with some of the ridiculous decisions taken by the tory party. What I believe from this mess is that Boris, as big a buffoon he can be, has shown he has more about him than any current mp. They are a current set of self serving morons, not fit for office and not fit to carry out the will of the people.

The vote was LEAVE or REMAIN, LEAVE won.

That should have been the priority. When we see incompetent rich clowns like Gina Miller trying to impose her views on a democratic result to change it that really pisses me off big time. When we see mp's heading to court to try and stop the parliamentary process to get it stopped that again really pisses me off. When we see them crying foul and appealing that again really really pisses me off and is indicative of this current set of incompetent and imbecilic mps.

 

People have their view and I respect them. What is apparent is that the majority of remain mp's are failing to respect the vote result. we have an opposition party bellowing for a GE then hiding sway and having talks with the other parties to frustrate democracy even further,we have a labour party who change their mind at the drop of a hat and go against their own members, remember just how many of their constituents voted to leave and we have the libdems wanting to stop Brexit and therefore refusing to acknowledge what the British public voted for.

Its time to rid the houses of parliament of these fools, disestablish the house of lords who are unelected and to put people in place who WILL carry out the public wishes and not enforce their own view against the voters because it doesn't suit their own views.

Nigel Farage and co are going to have a ball and its becoming so simple because Corbyn and co are the biggest set of clowns since billy smarts circus packed in.

 

So Gina Miller is a "clown"! At least she's paying with her own money to fight for what she believes in, unlike that parasite Farage who's been on the public purse for

years as an MEP who rarely attends. What's he get (I say "get" as opposed to "earn")? £150000 a year + expenses? No shame that one.

The current Conservative Government seems to be the clowns imo, made a dog's breakfast of  Brexit haven't they? Its because the Arch-Brexiteers didn't vote for it that Theresa May's deal didn't get through.  Deal not hard enough, country needs to suffer more!

Edited by 47er
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Simply put, without the NHS: I'd never have been born (I'm an IVF baby). I'd have died in the womb (as did the triplets I was supposed to be part of). I'd have died at some point immedi

I didn't really want to get involved in this thread again, as emotions are very high, but I can't stand by and continue to be abused without putting my side across.  I'll try and quantify my view

And I’m going to have a Spanish beer from a Belgian glass, wearing an Italian band t-shirt ordered from a German website, and listening to some Bulgarian europop. You and the rest can stick Brexi

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49 minutes ago, DE. said:

However if it had to be done then considering how vague the original question was it would only make sense to allow a second vote once the process had completed and we really knew what we were getting into. 

Yeah, make sense DE, novel idea, so why hasn't it been done yet? I just don't get it.

Over 3 years now and we've progressed pretty much zero steps forward.

It's just embarassing how incompetent it all is. 

A vote was had and a result logged.  No matter how much people wanna cry about it, it cannot be ignored.

So, if the landscape has shifted, and extra information garnered,  then it needs voted on again.  

And not through some weird double meaning, secret riddle GE.

Just get it done Parliament.  It's surely not that hard. And then, there can be no arguing over the final result, whatever that might be. 

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Just now, Silas said:

Yeah, make sense DE, novel idea, so why hasn't it been done yet? I just don't get it.

The more cynical side of me thinks that both the EU and the UK want the populace to be as scared as possible of crashing out before putting a second referendum out, to ensure that remain will come out on top. I obviously hope that isn't the case but sometimes it certainly feels that way.

I think the time to do it was when the referendum was first announced, not three years later when the whole process has become a catastrophe. At that point a second referendum implies that our MPs have screwed up and are asking the public to bail them out. If it had been announced at the start then it would just be part of the process. 

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Yeah, see what your saying, but can't turn back the clock unfortunately though DE.

Maybe we should have a referendum about having a referendum. ?

I know that sounds ridiculous,  but I'm serious.  First vote = should we be giving the public the decision again. Depending on that, second vote then has the more detailed options in it.

Then no-one can complain and it gets final answers.

If 1st one is a definite yes.  No-one can complain about us doing it twice, the people have spoken. Again, if it's a no, then the decision is final and ALL politicians from all sides would just have to crack on and pull us out the EU by any means necessary.

Keep hearing people complain about the cost and hassle of arranging votes. This is a decision that is to affect our Nation for decades to come. A bit of extra time and cash to get it right is the least of our problems right now. 

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For me two referendums - one at the beginning and one at the end - seems like the most logical way forward. However because it wasn't advertised that way in the beginning I can understand people being against it. It's not all Leave voters either. I've spoken to a lot of Remainers who are also against a second referendum. 

At the moment there isn't much attention being paid to the fact the EU may well simply refuse an extension. If they do then we're crashing out no matter how many bills are passed. 

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1 hour ago, DE. said:

For me two referendums - one at the beginning and one at the end - seems like the most logical way forward. However because it wasn't advertised that way in the beginning I can understand people being against it. It's not all Leave voters either. I've spoken to a lot of Remainers who are also against a second referendum. 

At the moment there isn't much attention being paid to the fact the EU may well simply refuse an extension. If they do then we're crashing out no matter how many bills are passed. 

As I said a while ago, I think a 2nd referendum needs to be just two options e.g. Remain or leave with a deal or leave with a deal leave with no deal. If you have 3 options Remain, leave with a deal, leave with no deal, there could be a tight 3 way split with remain gaining the highest percentage but the two leave options still being a majority when added together. 

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15 minutes ago, Norbert Rassragr said:

As I said a while ago, I think a 2nd referendum needs to be just two options e.g. Remain or leave with a deal or leave with a deal leave with no deal. If you have 3 options Remain, leave with a deal, leave with no deal, there could be a tight 3 way split with remain gaining the highest percentage but the two leave options still being a majority when added together. 

I agree, although if a second referendum does come out I would expect us to know where we stand - either we have a deal or we don't. If we do then it's that deal or remain, if we don't then it's no deal or remain. Again it really shouldn't be up to the public to decide something so important but the precedent has already been set with the first referendum.

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1 hour ago, Norbert Rassragr said:

As I said a while ago, I think a 2nd referendum needs to be just two options e.g. Remain or leave with a deal or leave with a deal leave with no deal. If you have 3 options Remain, leave with a deal, leave with no deal, there could be a tight 3 way split with remain gaining the highest percentage but the two leave options still being a majority when added together. 

clearly there cant be a basic 3 way referendum which splits the leave vote between deal and no deal.

Would need to be a 2 level vote.

Q1 - Remain or Leave ?

If Leave win Q2 - May deal or No deal ?

(There won't be any other deal other than May's deal now that our negotiating power has been given away by parliament)

 

All voters vote in both questions or the ballot paper is spoiled.

That way everyone has a say if leave wins, how we leave.

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5 hours ago, gumboots said:

You're only a clown if you can't afford it. If you believe in something enough, you probably consider the cost worth it. 

Probably why a lot of Leavers are so entrenched too. Trouble is they don't provide any legit reasons beyond slogans and proven falsehoods.

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I said two and a bit years ago the only way to an outcome on Brexit is a second referendum. Whether that outcome be no deal, a deal or remain.

However no one wants to call a referendum. So round and round we go until eventually we will get one. Looks like we will need a GE first, then a second referendum, unless Boris can win a majority at a GE.

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3 hours ago, OldEwoodBlue said:

clearly there cant be a basic 3 way referendum which splits the leave vote between deal and no deal.

Would need to be a 2 level vote.

Q1 - Remain or Leave ?

If Leave win Q2 - May deal or No deal ?

(There won't be any other deal other than May's deal now that our negotiating power has been given away by parliament)

 

All voters vote in both questions or the ballot paper is spoiled.

That way everyone has a say if leave wins, how we leave.

That would be a good way of structuring it.

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8 hours ago, 1864roverite said:

47er, Gina Miller is a moronic clown if she thinks by spending  a few pounds she can go against the vote of 17.4m because she doesn't like the result of the referendum ! A fool and their money are easily parted.

She's already won one! May did not intend to give parliament any say at all on the deal. Executive were going to decide it on their own. Its because of her that parliament got a vote on her deal.

So you are totally wrong!

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7 hours ago, 47er said:

She's already won one! May did not intend to give parliament any say at all on the deal. Executive were going to decide it on their own. Its because of her that parliament got a vote on her deal.

So you are totally wrong!

totally wrong? Have I missed something? Miller won a simple judicial review, she didn't and hasn't overturned the result of the referendum!  As I said you have your view and I have mine, my view differs from yours get over it and accept it like I have yours.

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19 hours ago, 1864roverite said:

The current disaster is caused because MP's have put themselves above the electorate. Add this to Mp's who have gone against the wishes of their constituents and what they voted and we have this turmoil and division across the country. Then add Jimmy Krankies ideals north fo the border and this is just a recipe for incompetence. I would never vote labour ever and I have not agreed with some of the ridiculous decisions taken by the tory party. What I believe from this mess is that Boris, as big a buffoon he can be, has shown he has more about him than any current mp. They are a current set of self serving morons, not fit for office and not fit to carry out the will of the people.

The vote was LEAVE or REMAIN, LEAVE won.

That should have been the priority. When we see incompetent rich clowns like Gina Miller trying to impose her views on a democratic result to change it that really pisses me off big time. When we see mp's heading to court to try and stop the parliamentary process to get it stopped that again really pisses me off. When we see them crying foul and appealing that again really really pisses me off and is indicative of this current set of incompetent and imbecilic mps.

 

People have their view and I respect them. What is apparent is that the majority of remain mp's are failing to respect the vote result. we have an opposition party bellowing for a GE then hiding sway and having talks with the other parties to frustrate democracy even further,we have a labour party who change their mind at the drop of a hat and go against their own members, remember just how many of their constituents voted to leave and we have the libdems wanting to stop Brexit and therefore refusing to acknowledge what the British public voted for.

Its time to rid the houses of parliament of these fools, disestablish the house of lords who are unelected and to put people in place who WILL carry out the public wishes and not enforce their own view against the voters because it doesn't suit their own views.

Nigel Farage and co are going to have a ball and its becoming so simple because Corbyn and co are the biggest set of clowns since billy smarts circus packed in.

 

There is a world of difference between leave on Norway terms which I would accept and leave on No Deal which would force me to take a different citizenship.

It is like a choice between living in the Hebrides and living in Haiti.

Both are islands beginning with H but that is all they have in common. Same with Leave, one version is remote, without influence but liveable with modern communications, the other is lawless with the highest homicides in the world and no functioning economy. 

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How the Canadians see the UK - and most of the rest of the World.

Britain's prestige power and influence have been totally trashed in the last three years.

 

British politics today is what results from the collision of an unstoppable force, an immovable object and a clown car.

The unstoppable force is the dominant faction of Britain’s Conservative Party, which insists on not just an exit from the European Union, but the most catastrophic exit possible. It’s a plan for national self-defenestration. The immovable object is reality – the reality that a no-deal Brexit will play havoc with the economy and hurt real people; the reality that a majority of Parliament and the people will not back it; the reality that the Brexit-at-any-cost crowd can’t press the detonator without majority approval.

And the clown car is Mr. Johnson.

The Tories have transformed themselves into a protest party, even while continuing to govern a Group of Seven nation with a permanent seat on the United Nations Security Council. They’ve become increasingly monomaniacal in their Brexit obsession, and increasingly childlike. It’s an evolution that has reached its nadir in the premiership of Mr. Johnson.

 

Despite his claims of being a champion of conservative British values and institutions, he’s shown himself eager to run roughshod over Parliament and people, all in order to achieve something the latter did not ask for and the former has not and will not vote for.

Late last month, he announced an extended prorogation of Parliament in an attempt to make an end-run around the legislature, thereby depriving it of time to stop an auto-triggered Brexit on Oct. 31. But MPs were having none of it and by Friday, Parliament is likely to have finished passing legislation preventing a no-deal Brexit. The legislation has the backing of some Tories, or rather former Tories, since these long-time party loyalists have now been booted.

Then, after losing vote after vote, and clearly no longer in control of the House of Commons, Mr. Johnson tried to call a snap election. But under Britain’s rules for fixed-date elections, moving up the timing of the ballot requires the support of two-thirds of the House. MPs refused him. They’ll likely vote for an election in a few days, but their first concern is the disarming of the doomsday device and preventing Mr. Johnson from rearming it after Parliament rises.

In 2016, the British people were asked what they thought of the idea of skydiving. In a referendum, they narrowly answered that, in theory, they’d be willing to give it a try.

For three years, the British government has claimed that it is close to reaching a deal with the EU and acquiring the wherewithal for making a safe-ish jump possible.

But the position of Mr. Johnson’s new government is that since Britain voted for the idea of skydiving, then skydiving there must be. On Oct. 31, Britain has no option but to jump out of a plane, parachute or no parachute.

 

That’s democracy, right?

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1 hour ago, 1864roverite said:

totally wrong? Have I missed something? Miller won a simple judicial review, she didn't and hasn't overturned the result of the referendum!  As I said you have your view and I have mine, my view differs from yours get over it and accept it like I have yours.

Hang on! I'm talking about a totally different case she took to the High Court when Theresa May was PM! Gina Miller won! That case was not about overturning the referendum.

This isn't a "view" its a "fact".

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20 hours ago, 1864roverite said:

 

We have an opposition party bellowing for a GE then hiding sway and having talks with the other parties to frustrate democracy even further,we have a labour party who change their mind at the drop of a hat and go against their own members, remember just how many of their constituents voted to leave and we have the libdems wanting to stop Brexit and therefore refusing to acknowledge what the British public voted for.

I

 Point of fact.

The widely respected British Election Study (BES) conducted a face-to-face survey of people across the country.

Its central estimate for the 2017 election was that 30% of Labour voters had voted Leave in the referendum. Labour received 12,877,918 votes in that election - 30% of that would be 3.9 million.

So the large majority of Labour voters voted Remain in 2016.

Labour aren't hiding away from an election; they wisely haven't fallen for Johnson's October 15 election trap because, like the vast majority of the UK population, they don't trust him. 

 

 

 

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On 07/09/2019 at 08:04, arbitro said:

I am fully aware of what the US and What Trump said in his visit here when PM May was in charge but my point was Johnson and Hancock have been said the NHS wont be on table. 

On 07/09/2019 at 10:43, Mike E said:

The vote was ONLY to Leave the EU.

 

which haven't be done by Parliament and not delivered. I wouldn't trust majority of MP's to organise a party in a brewery so they have no chance in deliver what the MAJORITY of voters voted for! 

23 hours ago, DE. said:

As has been postulated before by others, the fairest thing at the time would have been to announce a referendum for the initial decision (leave/stay) and then advise there would be a second referendum once a deal (or no deal) has been agreed to confirm whether people want to leave with the deal/no deal that has been agreed, or would rather revoke A50 and remain. 

I completely disagreed with the idea of a referendum in the first place as we employ MPs for the specific purpose of making those decisions for us. The general public has nowhere near enough knowledge to make a decision on whether we should leave the EU or not so to have a referendum on such a vital issue was horrifically irresponsible and negligent. However if it had to be done then considering how vague the original question was it would only make sense to allow a second vote once the process had completed and we really knew what we were getting into. I don't think many people in 2016 would have predicted this current disaster as the outcome. 

another referendum? what for? So the majority of Parliament can get their wish and we don't leave. 

So the Majority of voters are ignored yet again and again. So basically we don't matter if Parliament doesn't want it. 

I tell what is irresponsible and negligent that Parliament have not got us out of in EU in 3 years and the Majority of voters have been simply IGNORED!

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20 hours ago, 1864roverite said:

47er, Gina Miller is a moronic clown if she thinks by spending  a few pounds she can go against the vote of 17.4m because she doesn't like the result of the referendum ! A fool and their money are easily parted.

Very correct 1864roverite

13 hours ago, Mike E said:

Probably why a lot of Leavers are so entrenched too. Trouble is they don't provide any legit reasons beyond slogans and proven falsehoods.

Here one very simple reason is that 17.4 million voters voted to leave? 

1 hour ago, jim mk2 said:

 Point of fact.

The widely respected British Election Study (BES) conducted a face-to-face survey of people across the country.

Its central estimate for the 2017 election was that 30% of Labour voters had voted Leave in the referendum. Labour received 12,877,918 votes in that election - 30% of that would be 3.9 million.

So the large majority of Labour voters voted Remain in 2016.

Labour aren't hiding away from an election; they wisely haven't fallen for Johnson's October 15 election trap because, like the vast majority of the UK population, they don't trust him. 

 

 

 

Labour aren't hiding from an election? Corbyn has been begging for an election for 2 years and when he gets his chance he bottled it. wonder why? has he seen the latest opinion polls out just the last 24 hours which put Tories on 35%, Labour on either 25 or 21%, 

Screenshot_20190908-111835_Twitter.jpg

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Just now, chaddyrovers said:

another referendum? what for? So the majority of Parliament can get their wish and we don't leave. 

So the Majority of voters are ignored yet again and again. So basically we don't matter if Parliament doesn't want it. 

It's in fact the total opposite Chaddy. Ignoring the voters is creating a deal (or not) and pushing it through without asking the people first if they are happy with what's been agreed. A second referendum is giving the populace a chance to give their say on whether or not they are OK to go ahead with what the Government proposes. If we were important enough to ask whether we should leave or not then we should also be important enough to ask whether we are happy with the deal (or not) that's been agreed. 

Leave voters aren't against a second referendum because it's "against democracy" or "ignoring the original vote" or whatever excuse is postulated. Most of them are simply scared that the original result will be overturned and they will "lose", even though they stand to lose far more if we crash out with no deal or a bad deal. It's an obstinate, tribal mindset which reflects exactly why the public should never have been given the vote in the first place.

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11 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

 

Labour aren't hiding from an election? Corbyn has been begging for an election for 2 years and when he gets his chance he bottled it. wonder why? has he seen the latest opinion polls out just the last 24 hours which put Tories on 35%, Labour on either 25 or 21%, 

 

It's been explained to you many times on here, and if you could be bothered to do any wider reading other than right wing newspapers, why Labour and the other opposition parties don't trust Johnson with an early election.

So, spoonfeeding time again for the non-grown-ups, here it is

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/labour-will-not-vote-for-boris-johnsons-trap-snap-election-confirms-keir-starmer_uk_5d6f6427e4b0cdfe0577b6c1?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJPMoOnM415syf_38qZQ72cYjeiLPoru1x-_8pDCmVr6BFQ93t-Q_yxnJm4EF3ONPd_S02kwO5R4X3TpwnxY0XkI6fwnp0sm2HcBah4f4HMyXDJjJliMjlIEw296uCmnUjNWkYnT8mFeHFmLzIvTA2x0-qfI-gMXRAQ_JdIItOTN

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8 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Very correct 1864roverite

Here one very simple reason is that 17.4 million voters voted to leave? 

Labour aren't hiding from an election? Corbyn has been begging for an election for 2 years and when he gets his chance he bottled it. wonder why? has he seen the latest opinion polls out just the last 24 hours which put Tories on 35%, Labour on either 25 or 21%, 

Screenshot_20190908-111835_Twitter.jpg

Chaddy, You've been told over and over again that Corbyn and, in fact, the SNP,LIB DEMS and over 20 TORY MP's, won't agree to an election in October because they don't trust Johnson. And why should they when he's saying he won't do what an Act of Parliament tells him to do?

And Gina Miller is entitled to do what she thinks is right under the law without being regarded as a moron.

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