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Simply put, without the NHS: I'd never have been born (I'm an IVF baby). I'd have died in the womb (as did the triplets I was supposed to be part of). I'd have died at some point immedi

I didn't really want to get involved in this thread again, as emotions are very high, but I can't stand by and continue to be abused without putting my side across.  I'll try and quantify my view

And I’m going to have a Spanish beer from a Belgian glass, wearing an Italian band t-shirt ordered from a German website, and listening to some Bulgarian europop. You and the rest can stick Brexi

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What Boycott has to do with Brexit I don’t know. What I do know though is when speaking about his not getting a knighthood a few years ago he suggested he needed to black up to give himself a better chance like some West Indian cricketers. Such a charmer.

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3 hours ago, OldEwoodBlue said:

Don't be silly. That is the whole of the EU who are entitled to live in Britain. Think before you type.

Don't be dumb. I've been quite specific----I've referred only to British ex-pats living in the EU and EU born citizens living in UK!

How you could arrive at the conclusion you did is remarkable,

And, by the way OnePhilT, hundreds of thousands of British ex-pats were allowed to vote in the 2016 Referendum but EU born British residents were not.

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8 minutes ago, Silas said:

I Well, that's me done, if you've made it through the whole of that, good on you, you deserve a medal. But Brexit or no Brexit, I don't care what anyone says, our Nation/Country is no longer sustainable at the levels it's running. The NHS can't cope, the benefits system can't cope, all sorts of other infrastructure and systems are close to breaking point. And there's one running theme throughout life that will carry on regardless, the people at the top will continue to sit pretty, and the people at the bottom will continue to suffer. Here's to one day........ a fair balance coming to it all. If both sides of this divide can unite behind anything, I truly hope it's that.  

You'd make a good speechwriter for Jeremy Corbyn.

You know the solution 

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Two very good contributions from Silas and OnePhilT.

To the point, polite, and containing no derogatory comments to other posters.

Like Phil to Silas, I have issues with thing that Phil says in his second para, but that's for another day, when I have time. Don't worry, Phil, it's only about the EU that I have issues.

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Great post @Silas. Whilst I disagree on leaving the EU as the solution, it's undeniable that the problems you raised are very real and something we are increasingly unable to ignore or kick down the road for another day.

Edit: I should also note that my "teacher giving a five year old an advanced math exam" example was not to imply Leave or any other voters were stupid. I only meant it as an example of the gap in knowledge almost all of the public (me included) have when it comes to making a balanced, rational decision on whether leaving the EU is the right or wrong decision - hence the referendum being a bad idea.  

Edited by DE.
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I think we all, even the staunchest remain supporters among us, have issues with the EU. The point is that many of us still feel we stand a better chance in than out, and, if we find life too hard outside, the conditions for reentry would be far harsher than our current terms. Outside, even with the best deal we can get, we wouldn't have the benefits we have now, and we'd have no say over future conditions. As for paying, all we hear is what we pay in. We never hear what we get paid for by the EU 

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1 hour ago, gumboots said:

I think we all, even the staunchest remain supporters among us, have issues with the EU. The point is that many of us still feel we stand a better chance in than out, and, if we find life too hard outside, the conditions for reentry would be far harsher than our current terms. Outside, even with the best deal we can get, we wouldn't have the benefits we have now, and we'd have no say over future conditions. As for paying, all we hear is what we pay in. We never hear what we get paid for by the EU 

Interesting you say that,'boots.

What would be your issues with the EU?

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34 minutes ago, 47er said:

Scottish Court rules Government broke the law when it prorogued parliament last week!

Scotland confirming what was blindingly obvious - that Johnson shutting down parliament and debate about Brexit  was wrong. In effect, the court has ruled that Johnson lied to the Queen in order to gain prorogation. 

Unfortunately, Scottish law is different to English law, which is why the action was launched in Scotland and not here.   

The best thing about the judgment though is that it will provoke the Brextremists into revealing their true opinion on Scotland. How are they going to pin that one on Brussels?

 

Edited by jim mk2
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13 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

Scotland confirming what was blindingly obvious - that Johnson was shutting down parliament and debate about Brexit for so long at this particular time was wrong. Johnson has been exposed again as a liar for pretending otherwise.

Unfortunately, Scottish law is different to English law, which is why the action was launched in Scotland and not here.   

The best thing about the judgment though is that it will provoke the Brextremists into revealing their true opinion on Scotland. How are they going to pin that one on Brussels?

 

Its launched here as well isn't it? Gina Miller lost first round but has appealed.

The Sun will be sick for a headline if she wins.Can I suggest

 "Gina Miller fails to waste her money!"?

Or perhaps"Gina Miller in money-wasting failure fiasco!"

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Just now, 47er said:

Its launched here as well isn't it? Gina Miller lost first round but has appealed.

The Sun will be sick for a headline if she wins.Can I suggest

 "Gina Miller fails to waste her money!"?

Or perhaps"Gina Miller in money-wasting failure fiasco!"

Yes, the Scottish judgment could influence the UK Supreme Court hearing next week but as I understand it, Scottish law is different to the law of England and Wales, which includes a different approach to constitutional law matters. 

The Scottish judges' verdict on Johnson was pretty damning though.

All three – Lord Carloway, Lord Brodie and Lord Drummond Young – found that the prime minister's advice to the Queen was "motivated by the improper purpose of stymying parliament" and therefore unlawful.

I assume the Mail and Sun will cast them all as "Enemies of the People"

 

Edited by jim mk2
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13 hours ago, Silas said:

I voted leave because I thought it would be best for the country my 5 year old daughter will be growing up in, getting married in, and hopefully buying a house in, in about 2 decades time.

And I did it based on reasoned research, my varied experiences of living all over the UK (a minute amount of which I've put in this post), and what I thought would be in the best interests of EVERYONE living in the UK.  

A little ironic: I voted remain because I thought it would be best for the country my (now 3 1/2 year old) daughter will grow up in, etc. 

And I did it using much the same criteria as you.

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Factual clarification on the Scottish ruling

1) Scottish law is different from English and Welsh. They are correct to rule prorogation illegal in this case under Scottish law.

2) English law has far more cases so likely prorogation legal in England as a result of Victorian cases brought by an eccentric who tested the unwritten constitution as a hobby.

3) Supreme Court is of the whole UK and on appeal is likely to rule prorogation legal

BUT

4) The Scottish judgement effectively rules Rees-Mogg on behalf of Johnson lied to HM Queen on the reasons for prorogation.

5) Lying judgements are a matter of fact and highly unlikely even to be considered on appeal so the judgement Johnson lied almost certainly stands.

6) Scottish Court gave leave to appeal and postponed making a ruling until the Supreme Court hearing.

SO

7) whether Parliament is legally prorogued is ???? as of now

AND

? Johnson found guilty of lying to Queen which ordinarily would cause the immediate resignation of the PM

9) Parliament following Monday night now requires as a matter of law for all communications in any form.pertaining to the prorogation to be handed to the Courts. The fact nobody on Government side signed an affidavit ie nobody willing to go on record at pain of imprisonment that the Government story was true... Probably means plenty of embarrassment or even criminally incriminating material will be divulged.

 

As for the Boris Bridge to Belfast, we were always treated to Johnson grandiose visions whenever he had shovelled himself into the shit as Mayor of London.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Mike E said:

If he can't build a 100-metre bridge in London, how can he get a 35-mile one built?

Fraud.

Latest glamour project are Boris Boats. Navy frigates built in reopened UK shipyards.

Floppy Johnson and Brexit are going to sink each other in a death embrace at this rate.

Incidentally the Yellowhammer document released by Government is the same as the version obtained by the Sunday Times except:

The headline has been changed from Base Case to A series of worst cases

And a scenario for oil refineries closing has been redacted.

 

As I have been arguing, Yellowhammer is not worst case.

1) it identifies a series of scenarios happening in isolation. As we all know, when things go wrong, many things go wrong at the same time and interact with each other overwhelming rational thinking. 

2) being rational, under no deal Brexit, all the scenarios in Yellowhammer would be triggered together. It is not as though the haulage industry suffers no deal but the NHS remains in the EU...

3) if the UK goes back on paying existing EU liabilities, why would the EU extend the short term unilateral waivers it has committed to allow British planes ships trains and lorries to keep operating to the EU from December?

4) suppose the EU had voted to do something that took away 0.5 pence in the £ from the UK. Wouldn't the British press whip up a storm for Britain to retaliate? Well no deal Brexit is that situation in reverse and Yellowhammer has no scenario for German, French, Belgian and Dutch voters getting mad at Britain.

5) for that matter British voters really will get mad at Britain for taking away from them ten times as much- 5 pence in the £

6) 55% of British exports go to the EU and 5% of EU 27 exports go to the UK. The EU27 have the whip hand if it gets nasty.

Edited by philipl
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@Silas thank you for your reasoned and we'll argued post. It is one of very few I've seen with real explanation of why an individual chose to vote leave.

I can see and share to an extent your view on population, overcrowding and lack of resources.

Where I would have to disagree with you is that Brexit will address or resolve these issues. In relation to population and resources your voting reason boils down to one word - migration. This doesn't make you any one of several "ists." You back up your view with sound information.

The difficulty is this - leaving the EU will most likely reduce EU imigration but will not reduce the overall figure. The UK will still need a migrant workforce to fill the jobs British workers don't want - it's simply a case of where these workers come from. Inside or outside of the EU

You mention illegal migration. This has little to do with EU membership. The attempts by illegal migrants to enter the UK will not suddenly stop. In fact the situation may worsen. I understand UK border checks are carried out in France, this may have to stop. I think there is a level of cooperation with the French authorities, this may stop. After all France's interest should be to control who enters their country not who leaves. We could find many more illegals actually landing in Britain.

Under investment and a creaking system? Yes this is the case and settled EU migrants contribute to this but there is sound research to support these people contribute fairly in terms of tax and NI. Where successive governments have failed is through not ensuring public and private investment match population growth.

On the outskirts of Chorley the old ROF site has become a major housing and employment area. To take two examples, the local hospital is contracting when it should be expanding and not one new school has been built to take in the growth in secondary age children.

The local authorities are delighted to sign off and allow the development but failed to ensure public and private money was invested to provide these services. This is a government and local authority failure and has nothing to do with EU membership.

In my village for the last 37/38 years every child who wanted it got a Chorley secondary school place. This year none got in and they have to travel to Bamber Bridge, Darwen and Blackburn. There simply are no places for them as Buckshaw residents are closer.

We need to look much closer to home on these issues than across the channel.

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To add to your  post Paul, Britain's population is aging rapidly. An increasing number of older people have left work, pay little or no income tax but (though no fault of their own) need increasing amounts of government help to live their lives.

Migrants are invariably younger and eager for work. When settled they contribute regularly to the Exchequer for years. We actually need them to fill positions that would otherwise be left vacant and to contribute to the tax take.

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On 11/09/2019 at 04:00, chaddyrovers said:

What do people think of Harriett Harman's comments about Geoffrey Boycott being given a Knighthood? 

my opinion is I think he deserve one and I believe him when he says he is innocent of those allegations. He is a straight talker and someone who speaks his mind 

0_PROD-Margaret-Moore.jpg
Margaret Moore former lover 20 January 1998 : of British cricket legend Geoffrey Boycott after being beaten by the The former Yorkshire and England . He is accused of beating Margaret Moore in the south of France on October 2, 1996. Geoffrey Boycott did not attend the trial.
READ MORE

 

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