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I think Labour under Blair fell in love with all the management consultant/employment agency types, and thought a whole economy could be based on shopping and telesales. Employment agencies boomed under Labour, and gave so many idiots access to office jobs where they could swing their balls about without the pressure of flogging windows on commission.

They thought the country didn't need to make things as we could just get the Chinese to do that. Such short term, non-strategic thinking has been going on since Thatcher.

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Simply put, without the NHS: I'd never have been born (I'm an IVF baby). I'd have died in the womb (as did the triplets I was supposed to be part of). I'd have died at some point immedi

I didn't really want to get involved in this thread again, as emotions are very high, but I can't stand by and continue to be abused without putting my side across.  I'll try and quantify my view

The Tories didn't drag us out of the EU to strengthen workers rights for gods sake - What planet are you on ?

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1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

Yes you posted it will tougher to go overall to the EU. plenty of countries out there to visit out there. We dont all have to go Spain for holidays for example but Brits not go to Spain, France, Italy and Portugal for summer holidays hit the tourism and hospitality sectors alot more than out  

I got your smart arse comment first time around thanks.

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23 hours ago, den said:

I’ve said plenty Gav

It’s a crap deal that leaves us all worse off

 

Leaves is worse off than no deal do you mean? Thats where we stood only a few days ago, no deal?

Do you think Labour should be backing such a cr@p deal den?

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4 hours ago, Gav said:

The EHIC card is still valid until the expiry date runs out.

I was listening to radio 4 and they said it will be replaced by UK Global Health Insurance Card which covers you for exactly the same as EHIC, but in more countries, a brexit benefit.

The first bit is fact Gav, as I pointed out above. The second is speculation at the moment, as there is absolutely no information on the GHIC or what and where it might cover. I suspect right now that it's just a title on an otherwise blank piece of paper.

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1 hour ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

After falling significantly in the years of the Labour government from 1997 to 2010 employment in manufacturing industry is now higher than it was in 2010.

As far as the Machine Tool game was concerned the damage had been done in the 1980's. By the time Blair came to power there was nothing left to breathe life back into.

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1 hour ago, Gav said:

Leaves is worse off than no deal do you mean? Thats where we stood only a few days ago, no deal?

Do you think Labour should be backing such a cr@p deal den?

I mean it leaves us worse off than our current deal - by a long way.

Labour? It’s difficult for them. I can see arguments for all three options. Truth is though I guess, it doesn’t matter what they do.

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30 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

As far as the Machine Tool game was concerned the damage had been done in the 1980's. By the time Blair came to power there was nothing left to breathe life back into.

There were still 3.5m employed in manufacturing in 2002 reduced to 2.5m in 2010 after Blair and Brown had done their worst.

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1 hour ago, only2garners said:

The first bit is fact Gav, as I pointed out above. The second is speculation at the moment, as there is absolutely no information on the GHIC or what and where it might cover. I suspect right now that it's just a title on an otherwise blank piece of paper.

Radio 4 said Lichtenstein, Norway, Iceland and EU countries as a minimum. But it could well be an ambition o2g, I didn't here the full story.

16 minutes ago, den said:

I mean it leaves us worse off than our current deal - by a long way.

Labour? It’s difficult for them. I can see arguments for all three options. Truth is though I guess, it doesn’t matter what they do.

We don't have a current deal den, we legally left EU in January 2020.

The deal is a good deal for UK under the circumstances, all the scaremongering has mostly been alleviated by getting this deal, Labour should and will be in support and quite right too.

 

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4 minutes ago, Gav said:

 

The deal is a good deal for UK under the circumstances, all the scaremongering has mostly been alleviated by getting this deal, Labour should and will be in support and quite right too.

 

I look forwards to you putting that case forward Gav. Just saying it’s a good deal (I note you qualify it by adding “under all the circumstances”) doesn’t really convince anyone.

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2 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

There were still 3.5m employed in manufacturing in 2002 reduced to 2.5m in 2010 after Blair and Brown had done their worst.

2010 figures skewed by deep recession as a result of the WW financial crisis.

Total employment in manufacturing fell from 7.1 million in 1979 to 4.5 million in 1992 under Conservative rule 

That's nearly 3 million manufacturing jobs chucked away by the Tories, and more were lost before they were finally kicked out in 1997.

Portraying the Tories as the party of manufacturing is pure bullshit. 

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1 minute ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

You mean after the bankers had done their worst I think.

No, I don't mean that. The numbers fell below 3m in 2007 before the financial crisis of 2008. They fell consistently every year through the first decade of this century before Cameron and Osborne turned things round.

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1 minute ago, jim mk2 said:

2010 figures skewed by deep recession as a result of the WW financial crisis.

Total employment in manufacturing fell from 7.1 million in 1979 to 4.5 million in 1992 under Conservative rule 

That's nearly 3 million manufacturing jobs chucked away by the Tories, and more were lost before they were finally kicked out in 1997.

Portraying the Tories as the party of manufacturing is pure bullshit. 

See above - Labour's failure on manufacturing was in full swing before the financial crisis.

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Just now, Mashed Potatoes said:

No, I don't mean that. The numbers fell below 3m in 2007 before the financial crisis of 2008. They fell consistently every year through the first decade of this century before Cameron and Osborne turned things round.

Cameron and Osborne imposed austerity on ordinary working people to pay for bankers' excesses while giving tax cuts to millionaires. 

 

Just now, Mashed Potatoes said:

See above - Labour's failure on manufacturing was in full swing before the financial crisis.

Total employment in manufacturing fell from 7.1 million in 1979 to 4.5 million in 1992 under Conservative rule 

That's nearly 3 million manufacturing jobs chucked away by the Tories, and more were lost before they were finally kicked out in 1997.

Portraying the Tories as the party of manufacturing is pure bullshit. 

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7 minutes ago, Gav said:

Radio 4 said Lichtenstein, Norway, Iceland and EU countries as a minimum. But it could well be an ambition o2g, I didn't here the full story.

We don't have a current deal den, we legally left EU in January 2020.

The deal is a good deal for UK under the circumstances, all the scaremongering has mostly been alleviated by getting this deal, Labour should and will be in support and quite right too.

 

I'm sure that any new health card deal will cover the EU and associated countries - what we don't know is whether it will cover them in the exact same way as the EHIC currently does - hopefully it will.  I can't see the card covering many other countries except probably the likes of Australia and New Zealand where some reciprocal health coverage already exists. I fully expect that wrapping these arrangements into the new GHIC will be paraded as a great new deal soon.

You are right that the deal is a good one compared to the only alternative available right now - no deal. But it's miles away from any concept of the sort of deal that voters were promised in 2016. I don't think Labour have any real choice in voting for it - voting against would open up the chance of Parliament voting against and us ending up with a disastrous no deal. because of that situation a number of MPs will be able to make a "principled" vote against, safe in the knowledge that they won't win. Labour just need to make it clear that whilst voting for the deal, that they don't like it at all.

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3 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

Cameron and Osborne imposed austerity on ordinary working people to pay for bankers' excesses while giving tax cuts to millionaires. 

 

Total employment in manufacturing fell from 7.1 million in 1979 to 4.5 million in 1992 under Conservative rule 

That's nearly 3 million manufacturing jobs chucked away by the Tories, and more were lost before they were finally kicked out in 1997.

Portraying the Tories as the party of manufacturing is pure bullshit. 

You're living in the past - going back 30 to 40 years fighting old battles. What has happened this century is more relevant.

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1 minute ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

You're living in the past - going back 30 to 40 years fighting old battles. What has happened this century is more relevant.

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”–George Santayana

Red wall voters heading for another painful lesson . 

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So the U.K. can trade tariff free as long as they stick to Brussels regs - and the ERG fold and will vote for that.

Will one of you brexiteers please explain what the point of all this is?

 

Edited by den
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"EU trade deal will leave Britain with “one hand tied behind our back”, the  Scottish fishing lobby said on Tuesday.

https://www.ft.com/content/5d5f4f39-4849-4f90-b79b-0c8cf0d172d5

Fishermen voted for Johnson, so let them reap the consequences.  I do not care what they think - a very small and insignificant sector of our economy.

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5 hours ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

You're living in the past - going back 30 to 40 years fighting old battles. What has happened this century is more relevant.

Past always haunt us MP. Decisions made years or decades ago still have flow-on effects. Thatcher set us on a course from which its hard to row back. She sold just about every asset the State owned and her successors continued along that path. That meant future governments had fewer levers with which to adjust the economy and lost recurrent revenue as well. 

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