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1 hour ago, jim mk2 said:

"Buying British" has always been our policy whenever possible but with many products or sectors it is plainly not feasible. Next option would always be to buy from a fellow EU member state before the likes of the US or the Middle East, for instance. Some countries, the obvious ones, we would never knowingly buy from

Why this has anything to do with Brexit is in the fevered minds of Brexiteers. 

Basically this for me too.

I’ll go to Alpe’s butchers for my meat, Clitheroe market for fruit and veg and Aldi for everything else. The everything else is stuff that I like to eat that isn’t from Britain....

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Simply put, without the NHS: I'd never have been born (I'm an IVF baby). I'd have died in the womb (as did the triplets I was supposed to be part of). I'd have died at some point immedi

I didn't really want to get involved in this thread again, as emotions are very high, but I can't stand by and continue to be abused without putting my side across.  I'll try and quantify my view

The Tories didn't drag us out of the EU to strengthen workers rights for gods sake - What planet are you on ?

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1 minute ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

They don't care what I think. That's the point. The hard-right flavoured Brexit that will come to fruition in the next 4 years will be for the benefit of the few. 

They'll be aware of the general feeling, and if it's against them, they'll adjust, they always do, they're politicians.

If you're pissed off with them, ring them and tell them. That's what I do.

A mate of mine does it regularly, just to piss them off and release a bit of personal anger.

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1 hour ago, Mike E said:

First weekly shop of the year today. Looking forward to stocking up on British spices and getting some British pineapple and bananas for a fruity curry tonight 🙄

Just garnish your food with haddock flakes and stop your moaning. 

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52 minutes ago, dave birch said:

TS, I remember walking along the canal to the company I was working for, 1973.

Half heating, half lighting.

It was November 5, it was sleeting/rain, and there was I, in gear that was meant for Sydney.

I'd been disappointed with the MD, as I'd given him a great way to increase profits, without doing too much extra, so I was a bit pissed off. That company went belly up partly because the parent company was using it as a "pricing tool".

The mindset was so different, little positivity.

So I rang my Mrs (who's a Lancashire lass) and said, do you want to go back to Sydney, she said yes.

And here we are, still, in the same house (with upgrades) we bought in 1975.

 

It's a wonder you didn't jump in.

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I did my shop today and compared it with the total of my last shop. 
 

Near identical, save a few quid because there wasn’t an awful lot of alcohol included in this weeks. No price increases, no shortages, no lack of choice. All shelves full and no end in sight to the restocking. 
 

Believe what you see with your own eyes, not what people tell you will happen. 

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1 hour ago, arbitro said:

I too respect democracy and as such accept leaving but I'm far from comfortable with many, many aspects of the 'deal'. I can't see any tangible benefits for me and my family of working class oinks.

By the way the people I know and have discussed their leave vote with say their first  priority was to de escalate immigration. That's not a broad brush statement and generalisation but I do believe it was uppermost in lots of minds when the votes were cast.

 

That was my experience too. I have a circle of half a dozen blokes roughly my age who I go to the rugby league with. I've known most of them for 40 years at least. We usually have a pint or two together after the game. I was the only remainer in the group and without exception their main reason for wanting to leave was " Immigration ".  This in spite of two of them having at least one Irish parent who came to the UK and one guy who's mum and dad were Polish and came here after 1945.

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3 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

I did my shop today and compared it with the total of my last shop. 
 

Near identical, save a few quid because there wasn’t an awful lot of alcohol included in this weeks. No price increases, no shortages, no lack of choice. All shelves full and no end in sight to the restocking. 
 

Believe what you see with your own eyes, not what people tell you will happen. 

I dont think the world will end because of brexit but just to play devils advocate, the food you bought today would all have been bought pre-Brexit. Also I think all the scare stories, price hikes, empty shelves etc. were in the event of a no deal? 

Edited by RoverDom
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2 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

 

The new immigration system is pretty simple and clear. Our immigration system will be based on the skills we need in the country. why do you want 3 reasons for? 

Well 4 million people have applied for the Settlement scheme and They want to stay here in the UK despite what you say. The settlement scheme is opportunity to protect their residence in the UK

3 reasons why you care about the immigration laws in this Country.

Its not that hard to answer; three reasons why I care about it=
 

1. It should be fair, not based on background or simply skill sets we need at a particular time that’s good for us.

2. We should be allowing freedom of movement and trade within countries that offer us the same - that includes sending packages, or working abroad.

3. We should be doing more to support countries not as fortunate as us, we should certainly be accepting more refugees from countries were providing arms to bomb.

 

Once again - you’re prattling on about 4 million people that IMO shouldn’t have to apply to live somewhere they’ve contributed too. It should be a given.

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2 hours ago, Doug said:

If the product you require isn't made here then do your research and buy from somewhere that you feel comfortable buying from. Australia has had a tough time with China recently so maybe buy something produced there as an example. 

The question of why pay more is one for each individual to make that choice. I will pay more for our products, but I do appreciate that others may not be able to. The vast majority of food we need is produced in this country and is of a similar cost to imported produce.  

Very fair comment - however I was making a point about global products and services that are simply not available in this country.

Obviously, with hydroponics and lighting we can grow any vegetable in the uk, but I’m taking about specific goods like Brie and Champagne or Dutch cheeses, Berliner Pilsner, or Efes, or Mythos....

None of those things can be reproduced properly in this country in my opinion.
 

The ease and choice of holidaying, working and living aspect are important too - but in terms of goods, I buy things that I want with my hard earned cash.

It just happens that many of them are produced in europe.

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31 minutes ago, JBiz said:

3 reasons why you care about the immigration laws in this Country.

Its not that hard to answer; three reasons why I care about it=
 

1. It should be fair, not based on background or simply skill sets we need at a particular time that’s good for us.

2. We should be allowing freedom of movement and trade within countries that offer us the same - that includes sending packages, or working abroad.

3. We should be doing more to support countries not as fortunate as us, we should certainly be accepting more refugees from countries were providing arms to bomb.

 

Once again - you’re prattling on about 4 million people that IMO shouldn’t have to apply to live somewhere they’ve contributed too. It should be a given.

Why should number 1 be the rule? That’s not the rule in most other developed nations. If I want to move to Canada I have to meet a criteria set by them. It is fair because if I contribute to their economy they will allow me to live there. I will have already secured a decent job, paying average or above wage and ensure my employability is secured. Likewise they will be safe in the knowledge that if I do stop contributing to the economy they can ask me to either find new work or go home. A fair deal between two parties. 
 

Why should we not restrict immigration to critical skills that we require? 
 

We accept more refugees than the majority of other EU countries. 

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35 minutes ago, JBiz said:

3 reasons why you care about the immigration laws in this Country.

Its not that hard to answer; three reasons why I care about it=
 

1. It should be fair, not based on background or simply skill sets we need at a particular time that’s good for us.

2. We should be allowing freedom of movement and trade within countries that offer us the same - that includes sending packages, or working abroad.

3. We should be doing more to support countries not as fortunate as us, we should certainly be accepting more refugees from countries were providing arms to bomb.

 

Once again - you’re prattling on about 4 million people that IMO shouldn’t have to apply to live somewhere they’ve contributed too. It should be a given.

cos of a previous employer who drop his UK temporary staff who was loyal to the company and would come to the company year after year when required. in favour of Eastern European staff where he used an agency to brigeeng them over, rent houses to them and take advantage of them truly. Thats why

1. Of course a Skills based immigration is fair. Other countries like Canada and Australia have similar system, 

3. We accept more than our fair share of Refugees IMO. We shouldn't be accepting more. 

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55 minutes ago, JBiz said:

3 reasons why you care about the immigration laws in this Country.

Its not that hard to answer; three reasons why I care about it=
 

1. It should be fair, not based on background or simply skill sets we need at a particular time that’s good for us.

2. We should be allowing freedom of movement and trade within countries that offer us the same - that includes sending packages, or working abroad.

3. We should be doing more to support countries not as fortunate as us, we should certainly be accepting more refugees from countries were providing arms to bomb.

 

Once again - you’re prattling on about 4 million people that IMO shouldn’t have to apply to live somewhere they’ve contributed too. It should be a given.

Sorry for the double post Biz, but I'll be off to watch the game soon so thought I'd just contribute a bit better.

What many people seem to forget about the "freedom of movement, labour, goods" in the EU is, as Larry Elliot pointed out in the Guardian yesterday, these very things are what has driven Britain into a low wage economy. We use farming as an example here in the UK about how we will suffer as a consequence of Brexit. The reality is that Eastern European migrants pick our fruit because the industry does not pay the market value for a British worker. Simple as that. So the idea that we should continue to effectively manipulate poorer European nations in the guise of "freedom of movement (labour)" is neoliberal bullshit, for want of a better phrase. It is the reason the Franco-Germanic rule of the EU is what will see the majority of the little countries start to rise against it imo. Italy, Greece, Poland, Hungary, Slovakia are all countries that have not benefited at all from the Union in terms of living standards; Greece paid a heavy price for financial assistance let us not forget. The big European nations have thrived from the freedom of movement, whilst countries like Poland have had a brain drain which has lead to the events you see there now, or don't see, depending on what side of the fence you are on.

But let us stick with farming as an example of what can be done. I am unsure how many people have travelled/backpacked but standard course for doing so in Australia is that you take your turn in the agricultural sector. They make people who want to travel do 'farm work', which let me tell you, was the most labour intensive month of my life. I did not get special treatment, didn't really get paid much but did so because the assistance to the industry was what allowed me to travel around their country almost unrestricted for the amount of time I did. A fair trade of labour for temporary freedom.

With respect to how you see immigration I will simply have to disagree. It is not a race issue. The world is now 7bn strong, and counting, yet the disparity between locations has never been greater. The UK is an attractive place to live and to work however which way you see it, however in order to remain attractive we need to ensure those that move here are afforded better treatment than they are now. EU migration had a net positive impact on the country anyway. So the idea that Brexit will stop EU migration is a weird one. Most EU migrants quite easily meet the 70pts criteria required to emigrate here (40 for job offer, 10 for speaking english, 20 if on skills list / in medicine). I think they are eminently fair proposals to ask and in return they get to enter a market that is paid within the average mean, is a job that is required and therefore far more secure and ensures they can more easily assimilate with the culture (English speaking). I don't see how that is not based on fairness, whilst also benefiting the country they are moving to.

We still do allow freedom of movement. You can chose to enter or leave this country as you would like, providing you meet the criteria of whatever nation you plan to go or ours. We cannot just up sticks and move to Australia, Canada, New Zealand or USA. We would require to prove income, credit status, employability, criminal records and all manner of checks. If the European Union was a fair place to live and work you would not see the kind of exodus from Eastern European countries into the UK; it would be a more broader, fairer spread of people that would then mean you wouldn't see population density ten-fold in the advanced countries than in the others. For example, in Italy they are now attempting to pay people to emigrate there, whereas in the UK we are struggling to put houses up quick enough to house our current population.

https://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/21810/seeking-asylum-in-europe-in-2019-facts-and-figures

With respect to refugees we take more than our fair share. That is just a brief snapshot- but further research, which I am sure you will do, will show you that even amongst the EU nations there are a hell of a lot people not taking in anywhere near their "EU allocated" quota. Britain was one of only a few nations to actually meet theirs. The idea we do not do enough for refugee is media hysteria driven nonsense imo. The French have literally been seen ferrying these innocent people across the channel until it is not their responsibility. That isn't Farage nonsense, that is a fact.

We let refugees/asylum seekers down because we do not give them the right to work in this country. That is a huge chunk of their living standards taken away and needs to be addressed. In terms of numbers though, we are not shirking in our responsibility at all.

Edited by Dreams of 1995
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9 hours ago, dave birch said:

47er, at the convened conference the Labour party membership voted 2-1 for a withdrawal

From Wiki:

"However, there were significant splits within the ruling Labour party, the membership of which had voted 2:1 in favour of withdrawal at a one-day party conference on 26 April 1975."

Yes, the party voted to stay, however, that was after the referendum that Wilson called, which showed an overwhelming wish to stay.

Had that not transpired then it would have been a deathwish from Wilson to contradict the wishes of the membership.

If there's one thing you don't do, in the Labour party, is tell the majority of the members you know better than the collective.

 

I said there was no majority in the Labour Government for LEAVE in 1975 and I was correct wasn't I?

You are pointing to another body for your majority---those Labour members elected to Conference.

Their decisions have never been mandatory,simply advisory----just like the 2016 Referendum in fact.

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13 hours ago, Doug said:

I'm off to do my weekly shop and will endeavour, as always, to buy British produce wherever possible.

Support Britain, we owe it to the next generations, whatever your politics are, to make this country as strong as it can be.

So what car should I get---an Aston Martin?

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11 hours ago, jim mk2 said:

The irony of the Brexit adverts showing long queues of black faces is that immigration from the old Commonwealth has increased significantly  in the past few years while immigration from Europe (mostly white faces) has slumped.

Not quite what Farage and his Brexit followers had in mind when they embarked on the racist crusade. 

Don't forget the Turks!

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10 hours ago, Gav said:

Thankfully due to the brexit deal you'll not be paying more Mike, buy as much as you want, its the same price.

Just for the record, I've seen bananas growing in the conservatory in Corporation Park!

I donated to the friends of corporation park to help with the renovation of the conservatory, its a superb Blackburn landmark that has sadly seen better days and needs saving.

Increased red tape will put up the price of imported food Gav. Ironic for a Tory government?

 

10 hours ago, dave birch said:

f there's one thing you don't do, in the Labour party, is tell the majority of the members you know better than the collective.

Nah. Happens all the time. Thank God!

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7 minutes ago, Norbert Rassragr said:

Not those. They have Mercedes engines and electronics, and and Mr. Stroll, that Canadian who owns an F1 team owns 25%, whilst Merc own 5%. So they're not all that British.

"British" company with foreign owners and a global components supply chain. In fact, you'll struggle to buy a British car with British owners and locally made components.

Better go by public transport then, except the buses and trains are likely manufactured in Germany or Italy or Sweden, and the operating  companies by the Dutch or French governments.

"World-beating" Britain. 

 

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On 31/12/2020 at 11:03, Dreams of 1995 said:

With that mentality, yes. But the truth is we are not insignificant anymore. When the Empire was falling and our boys were more bothered about keeping the pits than anything else it might have been the case. Not saying their right wasn’t justified.

We are genuine world leaders in a lot of industry, despite the self-hate you read here. If you read commentary on the consequences of Brexit it is almost unanimous we will not see the kind of isolationism from the world predicted. So many services and products are that intertwined with the U.K., our market and our skills/technologies available that this idea of a mass exodus just isn’t feasible. Even the stats that say “x amount of businesses have moved to the EU” is only half the truth - most have only moved a section to an EU city for ease of access to the EU markets. 
 

Our universities are some of the most sought after in the world; we are amongst the best in the world for offering financial services, financial technology; our research and development is world leading; the transparency of our data handling is world leading (for which we advise on); our TV and film/digital services are renowned (how many Brit actors in the latest “super series” Game of Thrones?);  we have the Premier League and my favourite being that we are genuine world leaders in the move towards renewable energy, in which we are running huge portions of our energy grids from now and have reversed our dependence on fossil fuels in a way that dwarves the rest of the advanced economies. 
 

The world is changing. The U.K. isn’t insignificant. We are now chairing the global CoP and have taken the world lead in the fight for the “next” revolution - climate change. That green industrial revolution imo is what will keep us on the map. Like it or not, and it is strange some don’t seem to like it, the U.K. is a player and I suspect all of the green investment we are attracting / making will see us being one of the biggest exporters of energy around in the not-so-distant futures. 

You are listing the industries is losing global leadership in because of Brexit.

By definition, global leadership means international exposure.

By definition, Brexit makes Britain less international.

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