Jump to content

BRFCS

BY THE FANS, FOR THE FANS
SINCE 1996
Proudly partnered with TheTerraceStore.com

Brexit


Recommended Posts

14 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

And many want to see the return of cheap European labour markets, and rather strangely seem to consider the very thought of abandoning such a policy as a betrayal to the freedom of movement idea 

The very fact bosses could get away with that speaks volumes for the apparent benefits of a shared market force with the rest of Europe, whose countries are remarkably different for all of our so called ‘shared values’ 

In the short to medium term it is absolutely causing havoc but is it such a perishable thought that Eddie Stobart pay its domestic based drivers a fair wage for a fair days work pay? Or shall we continue to let them exploit young workers who come from a country with high unemployment? 
 

It is also remarkable that industry has all of a sudden all begun to face crisis after crisis on the back of removing that right to cheap foreign labour. Almost as if, across the board, our country relied on them. How dare we consider ourselves a progressive nation when we have a whole movement dedicated to the return to status quo, whereby young immigrants are not judged on the salary they earn, the level of English they speak or the career they will embark on but on the abundance and cost effectiveness of their market. And we call this “freedom of movement” but what we mean is “cheapness of labour”. 

We have an issue on our hands as a nation that we relied too much on this freedom of movement and that has brought about a situation where immigrants are forced to live way below the poverty line on shite wages and career prospects whilst our middle class argue the toss about wanting it to stay that way. Of course it suits your arch remainer, traditionally a middle class shopper of Booths, that young Petrov picked his fruit for less than the national living wage because he could pick up a punnet of strawberries for less than a quid 

And the new skills based immigration system does put a stop to that. It absolutely does not stop skilled workers arriving - indeed it promotes it - and instead aims to redress the balance between low skilled domestic labour and high quality overseas labour. The only problem I can find in it is that now the middle to upper class have to pay their fair whack for medial tasks instead of abusing immigration. 

But underneath all of the realities they dress their arguments up with “ethics” and claim it is “wrong to remove the freedom of movement”. Well, yea, it has had bad consequences on our young folks opportunities to move around Europe freely, but if it also stops situations like your young Spanish boy being exploited then so be it.

 

 

Very good points but the two aren't mutually exclusive. I'm sure we could have used some of the £130bn or so it has cost us to improve working conditions, it's just not what brexit is/was about for the majority.

 

I don't doubt that there would have been some very admirable people  who factored that into voting leave but I refuse to believe that was ever a justification for the conservative's decision to offer the vote and subsequently leave.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Sparks Rover said:

Looks like the Poles and the Hungarians are next.....the EU is finished.

The threats over the past few days coming from EU will only push them further away, what are they thinking?

So much for nobody else leaving, as the majority stated on here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Gav said:

as the majority stated on here.

Did  they? Think we might have had a bit of a go at Chaddy when he was positively pleading for others to leave but that's about it.

Personally,I don't see Hungary and Poland at the epicentre of the EU and never have. I'd prefer to be a member of an EU where governments are committed to democratic principles.

Mind you, on that basis, we wouldn't get in!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Gav said:

No need to be careful, we did the homework a while ago.

The average length of car ownership in UK is just under 4yrs, electric cars are far superior to any of the rivals in terms of that carbon footprint, for the duration for an average owner, its a no brainer.

It also helps pave the way for the worlds transition to sustainable energy.

Fair play for getting an electric car. Electric cars are a step in the right direction, but you can't ignore the fact that these things can't be green washed because there absolutely is an environmental cost to the manufacture of them (more so than gasoline cars) and running them. Your response felt defensive (my post was not designed as an attack on you at all) but we shouldn't green wash electric cars and think that there are no downsides to them. It is not a binary issue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, El Tombro said:

Fair play for getting an electric car. Electric cars are a step in the right direction, but you can't ignore the fact that these things can't be green washed because there absolutely is an environmental cost to the manufacture of them (more so than gasoline cars) and running them. Your response felt defensive (my post was not designed as an attack on you at all) but we shouldn't green wash electric cars and think that there are no downsides to them. It is not a binary issue.

As I said yesterday, electric cars are far better for the environment than the diesel and petrol alternatives, they're clean and green in comparison. 

You're now equipped with a good use case to buy electric next 👍

Edited by Gav
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, RoverinYorkshire said:

Very good points but the two aren't mutually exclusive. I'm sure we could have used some of the £130bn or so it has cost us to improve working conditions, it's just not what brexit is/was about for the majority.

I don't doubt that there would have been some very admirable people  who factored that into voting leave but I refuse to believe that was ever a justification for the conservative's decision to offer the vote and subsequently leave.

No they aren’t and I would agree that it certainly was not the intention of the “elites” when they decided to push the Brexit vote

But as with everything in life it has consequences. In my opinion you read between the lines at anything the press put forward. So far it has become apparent that without access to immigrant (cheap) labour there are industries that face “decimation” or at best a short term crisis. That tells me that industry has been paying way below what the domestic market demands. And therein lies one of the single biggest issues with this idea of a shared market of labour with countries that do not have much in common with us. 

I would also agree that we could have solved this without leaving the EU but I do like to look at the silver lining, and if the impact of Brexit is that these exploitative industries can no longer exploit then we should consider it a positive. And, when attempting to solve this issue of a saturated labour market, the barriers placed in front you as a member of the EU far exceed the barriers placed in front of you when outside of it. For example, you could not reasonably employ a skills based immigration system as a member of the EU and still abide by freedom of movement. 
 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

New Zealand’s agriculture sector is delighted because it provides better access to our market while British farmers (who mostly voted for Brexit) are worried about cheap meat imports. You reap what you sow

Link to comment
Share on other sites

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/20/amazon-is-offering-4000-bonuses-to-lure-uk-workers.html

Amazon are offering a £3000 signing on bonus to attract UK workers.

Some of these jobs would usually have been filled by European workers, but after Brexit, with the changes to visa rules (You have to earn over £26k to get one) these are being made more attractive by higher pay.

A Brexit bonus if ever I saw one.

 

Edited by Gav
Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, Gav said:

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/20/amazon-is-offering-4000-bonuses-to-lure-uk-workers.html

Amazon are offering a £3000 signing on bonus to attract UK workers.

Some of these jobs would usually have been filled by European workers, but after Brexit, with the changes to visa rules (You have to earn over £26k to get one) these are being made more attractive by higher pay.

A Brexit bonus if ever I saw one.

 

Given Amazons employment record I'd like to know what caveats are included in their employees contracts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Gav said:

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/20/amazon-is-offering-4000-bonuses-to-lure-uk-workers.html

Amazon are offering a £3000 signing on bonus to attract UK workers.

Some of these jobs would usually have been filled by European workers, but after Brexit, with the changes to visa rules (You have to earn over £26k to get one) these are being made more attractive by higher pay.

A Brexit bonus if ever I saw one.

 

The article states that there is only one role that they found which has a £3,000.00 welcoming bonus for a temporary worker there, with some other roles being offered with less. It also doesn't really go into detail about the roles of these workers (warehouse management, warehouse floor workers, etc.).

Even if it was all as good as it sounds, how can Amazon using its financial muscle be a Brexit bonus when they are an evergrowing monopoly that kills business competition? They are using an aggressive hiring policy that competitors can't match. Like @arbitro, I'm sceptical of how far this generosity of Amazon's really goes and what their ulterior motive is. My suspicion is that they want to harbour all of the workers possible whilst leaving their less well-off competitors with nothing.

A monopoly showing its muscle where competitors simply can't is never good news.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, El Tombro said:

how can Amazon using its financial muscle be a Brexit bonus

They would usually employ cheap labour for outside the UK to fill such vacancies, they can't do that now due to the restrictions on visas vrs salary after brexit. I would also question whether or not Amazon UK would have been allowed to offer cash incentives whilst we remained in EU, surely that would be break one EU law on competition rules.

Anyway, it now gives an opportunity for local employees to take up those jobs with a cash incentive to do so. 

Fill yer boots El Tombro. 

Edited by Gav
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Gav said:

Anyway, it now gives an opportunity for local employees to take up those jobs with a cash incentive to do so.

Do you think those employees would come from the unemployed roster? Or from another competitor?

I am extremely cynical about companies like Amazon, Uber, Facebook, Airbnb, and so on. Their business practices are designed to take all and give nothing. I am simply not a supporter of them and this move by them will only strengthen them while potentially shutting down competitors.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, El Tombro said:

Do you think those employees would come from the unemployed roster? Or from another competitor?

I am extremely cynical about companies like Amazon, Uber, Facebook, Airbnb, and so on. Their business practices are designed to take all and give nothing. I am simply not a supporter of them and this move by them will only strengthen them while potentially shutting down competitors.

I think you'll get a mixture, logistics and warehousing are notorious for turnover of staff, often due to more hourly pay or incentives such as Amazon are offering. Its not unusual to see staff join and leave B&Q for example time and time again. I also think you'll get workers from the service industry looking at this too, bit of a Christmas bonus for joining.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Gav This is Amazon's job list for the UK. The bonuses are listed in the icon at the left of each job listing. I saw "PRO RATA" next to the bonus amount on one of the adverts. I am very curious what the catch is. I find it very difficult to digest that they are giving a flat £1,500.00 bonus to workers in a temporary job that pays ~£10.00 per hour. Do they get it in time for Christmas as you suggest? Or is it given at the end of 12 months' work or something? It seems too good to be true and I'm convinced there will be some stipulations. I'm almost tempted to apply and enquire.

Edit: The bonus is paid pro rata over the course of a year. It's not a signing on bonus at all. More like a loyalty bonus. There are also some jobs advertised as "fixed term" which could mean a few months over Christmas, in which case many of the £1,000.00 pro rata bonuses advertised would be a maximum of £250.00.

There are other cases where the bonus is paid up front but if you quit or get fired, you have to pay it back pro rata.

So basically, that's the catch. You don't pocket £3,000.00 upon arrival in your new job at Amazon (or £1,000.00 which seems to be the common amount). You must stay there for a year to receive that, and that's IF it is a permanent job and not a fixed term job "just for Christmas". The original article, particularly your headlining of it, is extremely misleading, but I suppose it's difficult trying to clutch at straws for positives about Brexit.

Edited by El Tombro
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a remain voter will hold my hands up and accept that I think Brexit could be a good thing for wages in this country. Its basic supply and demand. The demand for labour is largely unchanged but the supply has significantly reduced meaning the existing labour pool can begin to demand more wage. 

Starts with a HGV driver shortage so firms start paying more to attract workers. This pulls workers from similar industries such as coach driving, super market delivery drivers. A  Bus and coach union / association (I forget the name as it was on the radio) is warning of upcoming driver shortages because drivers are leaving to get a better wage driving HGV. So then that industry will start paying more and pull people from other industries. Hopefully we should start to see firms / industries competing with each other over a smaller pool of labour which will result in wages going up. 

We'll all have to pay more though because the costs of goods and services will go up but I suppose many on here will approve of paying more so others get s fair wage? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 22/10/2021 at 17:03, El Tombro said:

So basically, that's the catch. You don't pocket £3,000.00 upon arrival in your new job at Amazon (or £1,000.00 which seems to be the common amount). You must stay there for a year to receive that, and that's IF it is a permanent job and not a fixed term job "just for Christmas". The original article, particularly your headlining of it, is extremely misleading, but I suppose it's difficult trying to clutch at straws for positives about Brexit.

You seem to have lost sight of the original point.

Amazon would usually rely of cheap European workers to fill these kind of vacancies. Since Brexit and the new rules around visas/£26k, they can no longer do that.

Amazon are now attracting local workers by offering a £3k signing on bonus, regardless of how and when it’s paid.

That wouldn’t, didn't happen before Brexit, a Brexit bonus if ever I saw one, clearly.

Edited by Gav
Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Gav said:

That wouldn’t, didn't happen before Brexit, a Brexit bonus if ever I saw one, clearly.

Your original headline was misleading. Only one job had a loyalty bonus of £3,000. Furthermore, it's pro rata. Hardly what was suggested as a signing on bonus, which it isn't.

Have you read about bus drivers flocking to the haulage industry now that money is being thrown at it? It's good that they can get a better wage by doing that, but it's difficult to see how we will emerge from a worker shortage. Have the government given an update on "levelling up"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, El Tombro said:

Your original headline was misleading. Only one job had a loyalty bonus of £3,000. Furthermore, it's pro rata. Hardly what was suggested as a signing on bonus, which it isn't.

Have you read about bus drivers flocking to the haulage industry now that money is being thrown at it? It's good that they can get a better wage by doing that, but it's difficult to see how we will emerge from a worker shortage. Have the government given an update on "levelling up"?

There was an article in my paper today regarding refuse wagon drivers. Apparently quite a few are leaving for the HGV jobs now on offer. So the shortage of drivers will impact bin emptying next.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, El Tombro said:

Your original headline was misleading. Only one job had a loyalty bonus of £3,000. Furthermore, it's pro rata. Hardly what was suggested as a signing on bonus, which it isn't.

I didn’t write the headline cnbc did..

Did Amazon offer such an incentive before Brexit? 

Edited by Gav
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

So a benefit of Brexit is a shortage of delivery drivers ? Right.

These jobs are warehouse operatives mainly TS.

Edited by Gav
Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, Gav said:

I didn’t write the headline cnbc did..

Did Amazon offer such an incentive before Brexit? 

So basically you posted an article with a misleading headline, converted it from dollars to pounds, and failed to do your homework on what the details which are nowhere close to what the simpleton headline suggests which you seem to be lauding. It's almost a scam.

I know truth isn't popular these days but I'd rather know the details than the misleading headlines. It's a shame that some can't be arsed with it.

Regarding your second question of the pro rata £1k first year loyalty bonus (if you prefer we can pretend it's £3k for all workers instead of just one job in Exeter, and that they all get it on day one with no strings attached), don't forget that the base salary is not being increased (which would be a true Brexit benefit rather than a one off Brexit bonus). A pro rata bonus payment for a limited time only is quite meagre for a tax dodging company. And you ignore the pattern that it will just an shift workers from one workplace to another (see today's news on the bus drivers to haulage drivers which is starting to create bus driver shortages and ties in with what I suspected yesterday).

The biggest issue is a lack of workers. Britain alone doesn't have them. How that can be a Brexit bonus when, for example, farmers have to cull thousands of pigs, or businesses will simply have to stop trading due to lack of skilled workers, I'm not sure. Again, you are totally clutching at straws with this wolf in sheep's clothing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We aren't talking about whether or not Brexit is a good idea, nor are we discussing the morality of the Amazon incentive, those are separate topics.

Amazon didn’t offer such an incentive before Brexit, they relied to some extent on foreign workers. This bonus is without doubt a Brexit benefit whether you like it or not. I know 4 pickers that have already taken up new posts at the Altrincham depot.

You should also research the subject before weighing in, you talked about the truth not being popular, then told us it was one job you said, in Exeter, not true.....

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/oct/17/small-firms-fury-as-amazon-offers-3000-sign-up-bonus-to-attract-christmas-staff

The highest Amazon sign-on bonus of £3,000 for full-time workers is being advertised at the firm’s Exeter warehouse. Temporary sorting staff at a warehouse in Weybridge, Surrey, are being offered £2,000 signing-up bonuses. Temporary recruits in Leeds are being offered £1,500. The 93,000 square-metre Amazon warehouse in Dunfermline in Fife, Scotland, is also offering signing up bonuses for £1,500. It is the company’s biggest warehouse in Britain, sorting and packing items across Scotland and the north of England.

Edited by Gav
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry @Gav but I just don’t see a tiny number of workers moving from one job to another for a one off payment as any kind of brexit bonus. It can’t even be said to be driving up wages, because it isn’t.

If brexit was bringing net jobs that didn’t previously exist into the country that would be a discussion to be had - but a minuscule amount of workers moving from one job to another means absolutely nothing really.

Its not easy finding all these benefits is it!

Edited by den
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.