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23 minutes ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

To understand the management of a business, you have to look at where they spend and don’t spend money over time.

After relegation from the Prem, we signed a “experienced” players on long contracts and high wages, such as Murphy, Etihu, Best, and pretty much none since then - lesson learned.  Graham & Mulgrew & Whittingham somewhat fit that bill and to a lesser extent Wes Brown & Greer which helped push us towards relegation. Numerous punts on already injured or prone players and bad eggs also along with the appointment of Coyle says to me bad self serving advice with seemingly still at least 1 willing owner is still only ever a phone call away.  Otherwise tend to agree but as the DG & CM signing have shown they are out there and some are still worth a punt for a club like us.

The Academy gets £3m every year without a quibble, whereas coaching staff are, wherever possible, promoted from within.

There seems to be a limitless transfer budget for young, English attacking players - Rhodes, Rudy, Brereton, Armstrong, Chapman - and yet nothing at all for foreign talent (Portugeezers hangover?) and experienced defenders.

There’s no question in my mind the club is being run to minimize long, expensive commitments to wages on players and staff and to maximize the chance of capital gains on player trading, bought or homegrown. I can well imagine this strategy came from the two lots of consultants and won’t be changing soon in response to a run of bad results on the field.

That being the case, Johno won’t be taking over the first team anytime soon - he makes the club a lot of money where he is - and our best bet to stiffen the back line will be a modern-day John McNamee, Kevin Moran or Tony Gale, if such players still exist today.

Mowbray’s kudos with his bosses for winning promotion got largely spent on rewarding Mulgrew, Williams and Evans, so there’s next to no chance their contracts will be dumped. We are still far from a normal football club.

 

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If only they had tuned up on day one and told John Williams and Tom Finn that they were going to invest £250 million pounds over the next 7 years (in addition to all the TV income) and charged them wi

exemplary adjective/ ɪɡˈzem·plə·ri/  extremely good of its type, so that it might serve as a model for others:   I don't see any other club owners aspiring to the Venky model. I w

I have done these summaries for a few years so I will do one again, but most of the relevant information has been covered here.  Of course, I do accounting related work 250 days a year already and the

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Just now, Rover_Shaun said:

Yeah, thanks Venkys ?

Never forget, never forgive. If they had any pride, they would arrange to give us our club back. They have no place in East Lancashire. Any apologists should take a good look at themselves. Why be a success in any other part of their empire, and be a total failure at Championship Manager?

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Just now, joey_big_nose said:

I get the sentiment of the above two posts but as it stands if Venkys walked away the club would cease to exist.

We are totally reliant on them with no way out anyone except Venkys control. It's an utterly horrendous situation. 

They sell for a pound, and walk away, with dignity. There must be a sensible local buyer who could then sustain a sensible model? Too many uses of the word sensible, sorry.

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Just now, Proudtobeblue&white said:

Never forget, never forgive. If they had any pride, they would arrange to give us our club back. They have no place in East Lancashire. Any apologists should take a good look at themselves. Why be a success in any other part of their empire, and be a total failure at Championship Manager?

Venky’s  like others who have inherited wealth have a certain arrogance that they are right.  Same with Walkers, who when you get down to it, their business acumen has been left wanting, take Flybe for example.

In my opinion, we have Indian owners who are living in a world that is probably 50 years behind Europe and as a result can’t be seen to have made a stupid decision to buy the club because in their world they have made the decision and it cannot be seen as wrong.  Problem is for us as fans we are now stuck between a rock and a hard place as they are looking at the money drain that is no doughtedly occurring.  Initial problem was that Venkys where shafted by certain agents and didn’t see that for a considerable period of time but by the time they did the agent and the manager who the agent had put in did untold damage which was exasperated by the relationship between the owner and the managers wife.   We thought or at least I did, this is pathetic.

They should give the club back but that is not going to happen because (coming from someone who has done business in that part of the world for many years) it is not in their psychology as it would be seen as a failure which is not acceptable.

In short, I believe, we are stuck with our current owners for the foreseeable future as in their world they cannot be seen to have failed.  However, if they see an opportunity for the club to improve (possibility of promotion etc.) then they will back the manager of the day, however, there is always a however, it is whoever chooses the manager because they haven’t the know how, Our current manager has done a reasonable job for us as fans because we are in a far better place now than we where at this time last year or certainly 2 years ago.  Problem we have, is this the farthest that the current manager can take us and if it is then who makes the decision to change.  The chief exec in Blackburn is a mate of the manager and is not going to get rid of him easily.

We have this issue, if we like it or not it is a fact, so in summary I can only think we get lucky and the owners will keep us going and back us to the hilt should circumstances arise but if they don’t, they see us as a money laundering outfit without going into FFP and keep us going.

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41 minutes ago, 4000Holes said:

Venky’s  like others who have inherited wealth have a certain arrogance that they are right.  Same with Walkers, who when you get down to it, their business acumen has been left wanting, take Flybe for example.

In my opinion, we have Indian owners who are living in a world that is probably 50 years behind Europe and as a result can’t be seen to have made a stupid decision to buy the club because in their world they have made the decision and it cannot be seen as wrong.  Problem is for us as fans we are now stuck between a rock and a hard place as they are looking at the money drain that is no doughtedly occurring.  Initial problem was that Venkys where shafted by certain agents and didn’t see that for a considerable period of time but by the time they did the agent and the manager who the agent had put in did untold damage which was exasperated by the relationship between the owner and the managers wife.   We thought or at least I did, this is pathetic.

They should give the club back but that is not going to happen because (coming from someone who has done business in that part of the world for many years) it is not in their psychology as it would be seen as a failure which is not acceptable.

In short, I believe, we are stuck with our current owners for the foreseeable future as in their world they cannot be seen to have failed.  However, if they see an opportunity for the club to improve (possibility of promotion etc.) then they will back the manager of the day, however, there is always a however, it is whoever chooses the manager because they haven’t the know how, Our current manager has done a reasonable job for us as fans because we are in a far better place now than we where at this time last year or certainly 2 years ago.  Problem we have, is this the farthest that the current manager can take us and if it is then who makes the decision to change.  The chief exec in Blackburn is a mate of the manager and is not going to get rid of him easily.

We have this issue, if we like it or not it is a fact, so in summary I can only think we get lucky and the owners will keep us going and back us to the hilt should circumstances arise but if they don’t, they see us as a money laundering outfit without going into FFP and keep us going.

But still, relatively recently after the complete disaster that was the dark lord, a succession of short term managers, nice manager, complete fuck up in the Bastard reject manager, and nice manager again, these people don't get where they are going wrong. No end game, as they aren't taking us back to the promised land. Unbelievable.

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49 minutes ago, 4000Holes said:

 

We have this issue, if we like it or not it is a fact, so in summary I can only think we get lucky and the owners will keep us going and back us to the hilt should circumstances arise but if they don’t, they see us as a money laundering outfit without going into FFP and keep us going.

I keep hearing this suggestion that if we end up in a decent position to make a push for promotion then Venkys will back the club/manager heavily to try and get us over the line.

I don't see much evidence of that.

In our time outside the Premier League i think we have reached January in with a 'chance' of promotion to the Premier League maybe twice - in Bowyer's first season and this season. Arguably this season we were closer than we have ever been - at the end of January we were on cloud 9 with 4 straight wins, 3 clean sheets, victories over form sides WBA and Hull. Well placed with a decent run of games coming up. 

What happens in response to that wonderful position? Not a penny spent, and by most measures we end the month weaker on paper than when we started it.

Now either that is Mowbray's fault, or Venkys. If it is the case Venkys were ready to invest to push us on and Mowbray refused to spend then i would hope they are as concerned as I am that we have a manager who refuses the opportunity to strengthen. The alternative of course is that they won't 'back us to the hilt' and probably had no idea about our impressive January results or position just outside the play-offs. My suspicion is they haven't a clue. Madame sets a budget in May for the year and sends Mowbray on his way to do his best with it. The only change is when Mowbray goes to her with his begging bowl for more cash or someone else (Balaji) suddenly dumps a pile of cash on Mowbray's desk expecting him to unearth a diamond for a massive profit down the line.

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Just now, JHRover said:

I keep hearing this suggestion that if we end up in a decent position to make a push for promotion then Venkys will back the club/manager heavily to try and get us over the line.

I don't see much evidence of that.

In our time outside the Premier League i think we have reached January in with a 'chance' of promotion to the Premier League maybe twice - in Bowyer's first season and this season. Arguably this season we were closer than we have ever been - at the end of January we were on cloud 9 with 4 straight wins, 3 clean sheets, victories over form sides WBA and Hull. Well placed with a decent run of games coming up. 

What happens in response to that wonderful position? Not a penny spent, and by most measures we end the month weaker on paper than when we started it.

Now either that is Mowbray's fault, or Venkys. If it is the case Venkys were ready to invest to push us on and Mowbray refused to spend then i would hope they are as concerned as I am that we have a manager who refuses the opportunity to strengthen. The alternative of course is that they won't 'back us to the hilt' and probably had no idea about our impressive January results or position just outside the play-offs. My suspicion is they haven't a clue. Madame sets a budget in May for the year and sends Mowbray on his way to do his best with it. The only change is when Mowbray goes to her with his begging bowl for more cash or someone else (Balaji) suddenly dumps a pile of cash on Mowbray's desk expecting him to unearth a diamond for a massive profit down the line.

Out of their depth. No idea. It's agonising!

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8 hours ago, JHRover said:

I keep hearing this suggestion that if we end up in a decent position to make a push for promotion then Venkys will back the club/manager heavily to try and get us over the line.

I don't see much evidence of that.

In our time outside the Premier League i think we have reached January in with a 'chance' of promotion to the Premier League maybe twice - in Bowyer's first season and this season. Arguably this season we were closer than we have ever been - at the end of January we were on cloud 9 with 4 straight wins, 3 clean sheets, victories over form sides WBA and Hull. Well placed with a decent run of games coming up. 

What happens in response to that wonderful position? Not a penny spent, and by most measures we end the month weaker on paper than when we started it.

Now either that is Mowbray's fault, or Venkys. If it is the case Venkys were ready to invest to push us on and Mowbray refused to spend then i would hope they are as concerned as I am that we have a manager who refuses the opportunity to strengthen. The alternative of course is that they won't 'back us to the hilt' and probably had no idea about our impressive January results or position just outside the play-offs. My suspicion is they haven't a clue. Madame sets a budget in May for the year and sends Mowbray on his way to do his best with it. The only change is when Mowbray goes to her with his begging bowl for more cash or someone else (Balaji) suddenly dumps a pile of cash on Mowbray's desk expecting him to unearth a diamond for a massive profit down the line.

Mowbray said he had money left in January that he didn't spend. He said he was happy with the squad. You can blame Venkys for many things but not the backing Mowbray has had. 

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18 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

Mowbray said he had money left in January that he didn't spend. He said he was happy with the squad. You can blame Venkys for many things but not the backing Mowbray has had. 

But Venkys idea of backing might not be on a level required to make a significant difference. Remember that they thought 5 million net a year was enough to bankroll a Premier League club.

Mowbray and other club staff are never going to say that there was no money available as that would turn the spotlight on the owners, whereas the party line is that they are great and support the club financially each year.

I don't know but I find it astonishing if there was a decent pot available that the manager couldn't or wouldn't use that to improve the team.

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Just now, JHRover said:

But Venkys idea of backing might not be on a level required to make a significant difference. Remember that they thought 5 million net a year was enough to bankroll a Premier League club.

Mowbray and other club staff are never going to say that there was no money available as that would turn the spotlight on the owners, whereas the party line is that they are great and support the club financially each year.

I don't know but I find it astonishing if there was a decent pot available that the manager couldn't or wouldn't use that to improve the team.

He had the biggest budget in L1, was allowed to keep all his big earners and added Dack. He then spent £7.6m net in the summer when most clubs in the Championship spend next to nowt because they practically all lose money. Mowbray was then quoted as saying he had money in Jan but couldn't find better players. All this at a club that has just recorded a £17m loss. Its irrelevant that they once said they could bankroll PL football on £5m a year. 

Mowbray had the money, he said so. He's recently come out and criticised the lack of investment in infrastructure. I don't think there's any party line being toed. Its very Venkys to give him a wedge of cash to buy some players but not have the scouting network/infrastructure in place to make best use of that cash. Hence him bemoaning the lack of European scouts recently. 

And yes, it was astonishing he didn't strengthen in January. We have seen the fall out from that recently. It's even more astonishing given his 'if you've got it, spend it' quotes when we signed BB. 

 

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11 hours ago, 4000Holes said:

Venky’s  like others who have inherited wealth have a certain arrogance that they are right.  Same with Walkers, who when you get down to it, their business acumen has been left wanting, take Flybe for example.

 

Another area of past dispute between family and trustees.

https://jerseyeveningpost.com/news/2016/02/05/former-flybe-business-adviser-sues-former-owners-of-airline-for-1-8-million/

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Just now, MCMC1875 said:

Meanwhile the town has turned its back on the club until they clear off.

I don't know, I think the damage is worse than that, I think some fans will be lost forever.....

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23 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

He had the biggest budget in L1, was allowed to keep all his big earners and added Dack. He then spent £7.6m net in the summer when most clubs in the Championship spend next to nowt because they practically all lose money. Mowbray was then quoted as saying he had money in Jan but couldn't find better players. All this at a club that has just recorded a £17m loss. Its irrelevant that they once said they could bankroll PL football on £5m a year. 

Mowbray had the money, he said so. He's recently come out and criticised the lack of investment in infrastructure. I don't think there's any party line being toed. Its very Venkys to give him a wedge of cash to buy some players but not have the scouting network/infrastructure in place to make best use of that cash. Hence him bemoaning the lack of European scouts recently. 

And yes, it was astonishing he didn't strengthen in January. We have seen the fall out from that recently. It's even more astonishing given his 'if you've got it, spend it' quotes when we signed BB. 

 

Every manager and board member they've appointed have shielded the owners by saying money was available and that the owners will back the club. Unfortunately for a catalogue of reasons we haven't seen much evidence of that and when we do see money appear it is usually either wasted or invested in unexpected ways at unexpected times.

We go on about a plan and doing things sensibly and methodically and yet as an example the purchase of Brereton was arguably the most bizarre and to date biggest waste of money in the entire division last summer. Lessons learned? They're either still running the club as a cowboy operation or the structure they've put in place to handle their investment isn't working if that is the best they can do.

What went on in League One was basically us going down with a Championship squad on Championship money and Venkys agreeing to fund that on League One income to try and get straight back up. More often than not that works in League One where most clubs haven't got any money. We've only to look at Bolton, Wigan, Barnsley, Sunderland as clubs that have gone down, kept most of their squad intact and bounced back or look like bouncing back immediately.

Given Mowbray's transfer dealings to date I'm not sure there's any need for a scounting network. Virtually everyone he's signed he's either worked with before or experienced them first hand in games against his teams.

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Just now, JHRover said:

Every manager and board member they've appointed have shielded the owners by saying money was available and that the owners will back the club.

Again, not true. Contrary to popular opinion Lambert left because he didn't want to run the club and be it's figurehead. He was caught saying it to a journo at a press conference. It was reported at the time. Something along the lines of 'I'm not doing this again' in reference to absent owners like he had a t Villa. He went on record as saying he hadn't discussed money with Venky's. At no point did he try and shield the owners. 

Coyle and Kean were just different varieties of liars. 

Bowyer didn't shield the owners. He just played the game by going out to see them.

Mowbray has praised them for the simple fact he's been backed in the transfer market - despite the club losing £17m in the last accounts. He has to say money was available because it has been. It's there in the club accounts.

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51 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

He had the biggest budget in L1, was allowed to keep all his big earners and added Dack. He then spent £7.6m net in the summer when most clubs in the Championship spend next to nowt because they practically all lose money.

? Championship clubs tend to lose money because of how much they spend on players... you may be thinking of how most post profits on player sales, but that's the money they are recouping on a depreciated asset (and hence have incurred the cost of that depreciation already, so those profits can be a bit illusory).

Compared to 17/18, our £7.6m net outlay is more in the bottom half of the Championship...

We're probably spending a decent chunk on wages, particularly relative to our turnover, but we are certainly not financial heavy hitters by any measure this year. Even if we've returned to wages of £35m (which I highly doubt!), which is what we were at back in 13/14 when we still had significant parachute payments, that would only place us maybe 8th-9th in the Championship.

Edited by RoverCanada
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12 hours ago, 4000Holes said:

Venky’s  like others who have inherited wealth have a certain arrogance that they are right.  Same with Walkers, who when you get down to it, their business acumen has been left wanting, take Flybe for example.

In my opinion, we have Indian owners who are living in a world that is probably 50 years behind Europe and as a result can’t be seen to have made a stupid decision to buy the club because in their world they have made the decision and it cannot be seen as wrong.  Problem is for us as fans we are now stuck between a rock and a hard place as they are looking at the money drain that is no doughtedly occurring.  Initial problem was that Venkys where shafted by certain agents and didn’t see that for a considerable period of time but by the time they did the agent and the manager who the agent had put in did untold damage which was exasperated by the relationship between the owner and the managers wife.   We thought or at least I did, this is pathetic.

They should give the club back but that is not going to happen because (coming from someone who has done business in that part of the world for many years) it is not in their psychology as it would be seen as a failure which is not acceptable.

In short, I believe, we are stuck with our current owners for the foreseeable future as in their world they cannot be seen to have failed.  However, if they see an opportunity for the club to improve (possibility of promotion etc.) then they will back the manager of the day, however, there is always a however, it is whoever chooses the manager because they haven’t the know how, Our current manager has done a reasonable job for us as fans because we are in a far better place now than we where at this time last year or certainly 2 years ago.  Problem we have, is this the farthest that the current manager can take us and if it is then who makes the decision to change.  The chief exec in Blackburn is a mate of the manager and is not going to get rid of him easily.

We have this issue, if we like it or not it is a fact, so in summary I can only think we get lucky and the owners will keep us going and back us to the hilt should circumstances arise but if they don’t, they see us as a money laundering outfit without going into FFP and keep us going.

I think the closet plausible thing I've heard to this theory is they genuinely believe they've done nothing wrong and aren't accountable for the way things ended up because they've continued to fund it, they can afford it and in their minds it's an act of generosity which they'll keep doing until something comes right.

We know football doesn't work like that at all and it's taken two sets of auditors to finally make them see that but to actually get things really going it'll take more than what we have at present which seems to be a settling in the armchairs for a period of stability whilst another team is grown to sell.  That'll keep the middlemen happy and as long as the club isn't causing them daily grief it'll keep the owners happy and the bank when transfer income starts again.

They can then dip in and out of it as their time and interest/impulses allow them safe it the knowledge it's stable for a bit.

Then they might wake up one morning back in league 1 !

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First comment from Paul Yates:  'What has struck me the most is the commitment from the owners.' 

Hell fire. Should have gone to Specsavers, Paul.....

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