Ben Brereton Diaz

[roversfan99]

Armstrong to be fair had previously had a prolific season albeit at League 1 level.

[Claytons Left Boot]

192 pages, at roughly 25 posts per page = 4,800 posts.

One post would have sufficed.

”Bag of kak. Shouldn’t have been bought.”

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

7 hours ago, Claytons Left Boot said:

192 pages, at roughly 25 posts per page = 4,800 posts.

One post would have sufficed.

”Bag of kak. Shouldn’t have been bought.”

I’d like to know how many people would have still lumped the £7 million on him if they had their time again ? I’m thinking not one person on here would.

[TheRoversReturn]

 

12 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

Define ‘cracker of a player’? He’s yet to stand out in a middling Championship team after three seasons here.

Come on Mattyblue, let's not go crazy...read back and you'll see I said "in there", hence not brought out...Obviously, if he'd been able to "stand out" we would not still be having this conversation. (Who did stand out last year? AA - going to the prem probably, maybe Elliott at times - going back to a CL club. Hence, if he had "stood out" we'd be talking about if we could fend off bids for him this summer and not this type of chat). However, has he been managed well during this time? For most of the first 18 months he wasn't being played. I distinctly remember when he finally scored...we won 1-0...what happened the game after? Mowbray dropped him. He was put on as sub in different positions time and again. It was a textbook case of incompetent man-management by the inspiration that is TM.

I repeat, "But the lad's got potential. He might not reach it, but it's strange that some want to write him off already." It's not a question of deciding whether he'll be Messi in a year or retired, he'll be neither. But will he go on to have a decent career? It looks like it. He might need a better manager though, like the rest of our youngsters.

Edited June 5, 2021 by TheRoversReturn

[TheRoversReturn]

12 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Armstrong to be fair had previously had a prolific season albeit at League 1 level.

Ok, but Armstrong is a couple of years older than BB. He scored 5 goals in 44 championship appearances in our first season after promotion. Ben got 7 in 40 last year. They were probably paying similar positions, wasn't AA mostly played wide back then? 

As Tyrone's post shows, people find it hard to discuss BB without mentioning the transfer fee. That's fully justified of course, nobody saying we should have paid that much and there's no doubt that considering the amount this has been a colossal disappointment. Still, we should be able discuss BB without going to extremes of "bag of kak" or suggesting he'll ever be a world beater. Or is nuance dead? Are the only choices to be; Shit or Superb? 

[Mattyblue]

Personally not sure there’s a cracking player ‘in there’, or at least one that will ever emerge. What do you see that I’m obviously not?

Hope you are right, but his struggles with the basics of the game at 22 (not 17) is not a good sign that he’s going to kick on.

[JBiz]

8 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Personally not sure there’s a cracking player ‘in there’, or at least one that will ever emerge. What do you see that I’m obviously not?

Hope you are right, but his struggles with the basics of the game at 22 (not 17) is not a good sign that he’s going to kick on.

Struggles with basics?

I would argue you could find 30 clips that support this view, and another 30 clips that show his first touch, short passing, crossing, shooting, strength, movement, dribbling skills etc are of a high level.

In terms of a “witch hunt” - whilst an extreme definition, the fact he was expensive meant that the expectation was instant. A handful of games first season, looking out of shape/confidence = he was effectively written off, advocated to be sent out on loan.. (ado den Haag la vista?)

Since, he’s basically just done what an average football fan would probably expect of any highly regarded potential young players; improved with age, time, starts and alongside his physical development.

Each to their own, I just would save the “bag of kak” comments for the Dixon Etuhu’s in blue and white.

 

[matt83]

I’m not particularly seeing any player either just one that lurches from total incompetence that you’d expect to see in the non league to one that goes through a purple patch of the standard you’d expect of an average championship player (not forgetting during these lofty periods he still can’t really score) but after which he’s heralded as being more than he is.

Of course at 22 he can improve and shouldn’t be judged as the final product but he’s got a long way to go to even be considered an average signing.

In the worst ever signings thread roversreturn gave his criteria for the worst signing combining fee, performances and consequences and 100% agree with Davies as the worst would then include grabbi but when you consider Brereton- £7 million, mostly useless on the pitch and transfer embargo resulting from his exorbitant fee he definitely deserves a mention.

The fact he’s currently on international duty with Chile is one of the most bewildering things I’ve seen happen to a rovers player in a long time. 

[Mattyblue]

28 minutes ago, JBiz said:

Struggles with basics?

I would argue you could find 30 clips that support this view, and another 30 clips that show his first touch, short passing, crossing, shooting, strength, movement, dribbling skills etc are of a high level.

 

 

Yes, with those basics. The fact you also realise that at least half the time he struggles with said football principles means he’s a long way off.

I’n not expecting world beaters at Ewood these days, but I think I can still spot a top talent, watching BB week in week out for three years I am not seeing  a ‘high level’ player.

But again, I’ll be delighted if season 4 becomes the one he finally emerges, can only be positive for all parties.
 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Mattyblue

[JBiz]

1 hour ago, Mattyblue said:

Yes, with those basics. The fact you also realise that at least half the time he struggles with said football principles means he’s a long way off.

I’n not expecting world beaters at Ewood these days, but I think I can still spot a top talent, watching BB week in week out for three years I am not seeing  a ‘high level’ player.

But again, I’ll be delighted if season 4 becomes the one he finally emerges, can only be positive for all parties.
 

No I was saying it would be easy to find clips to prove either side.

I guess the long and short of it; he’s got gradually better every month he’s been here.

 

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

Just now, JBiz said:

I guess the long and short of it; he’s got gradually better every month he’s been here.

He had a purple patch (for him) after lockdown 1 until the end of last season,  but this season appears to have reverted to type. He's distinctly average. 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

The fee is everything. If he’d have come from a non league team for £200k for instance people would have been more patient. Having said that if he had have come from lower league he’d probably be where Joe Nuttall is now.

For that sort of money it’s not unreasonable to be expecting a player to be making a significant contribution in most games and to be the first name on the team sheet.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Tyrone Shoelaces

[Mattyblue]

7 minutes ago, JBiz said:

No I was saying it would be easy to find clips to prove either side.

I guess the long and short of it; he’s got gradually better every month he’s been here.

 

Don’t agree.

Thought he started the season fairly well (from a very low base), got injured and regressed again when he returned - all goes back to how he quickly loses form and confidence, another aspect of a player that, for me, won’t be ‘high level’ - then improved with the pressure off in a few dead rubbers.

 

[JBiz]

19 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Don’t agree.

Thought he started the season fairly well (from a very low base), got injured and regressed again when he returned - all goes back to how he quickly loses form and confidence, another aspect of a player that, for me, won’t be ‘high level’ - then improved with the pressure off in a few dead rubbers.

 

That’s fair enough, however I don’t agree.

I think, if you take into account his utilisation, being played out of position mainly and being injured when he was, amongst other factors like poor team/manager performance;

He isn’t far off. As someone suggested, AA bagged five in his first full season, being under-utilised and played out wide.

With no changes to formation or manager - it wouldn’t be too surprising if he really kicks on in his preferred central berth. 

[Mattyblue]

‘Not far off’ from what? A decent Championship player? I suppose so, but a ‘high level’ player? Still far off from what I’ve seen.

End of the day, he’ll be here, he’ll be playing, and AA and his goals in all likelihood won’t be, so we’ve all got to hope you’re right and he steps up.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Mattyblue

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

Just now, JBiz said:

He isn’t far off. As someone suggested, AA bagged five in his first full season, being under-utilised and played out wide.

That's where the comparison ends. BB will never score 29 goals in a season in the 2nd tier of English football. There's just no strikers instinct there. People will see how good AA is when BB plays up front as a lone striker for a season. Doesn't bear thinking about. 

[JBiz]

Just now, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

That's where the comparison ends. BB will never score 29 goals in a season in the 2nd tier of English football. There's just no strikers instinct there. People will see how good AA is when BB plays up front as a lone striker for a season. Doesn't bear thinking about. 

The same argument was made that AA couldn’t play the Danny Graham way with Dack and we’d have to change style to accommodate his strengths.

Similarly to you, I’m not convinced BB will have the same nose for goal, but I’d like to see him centrally, for a full season, in a style that suits him (potentially with a better managers tactics) before I’d be willing to say he will never score 20+ Goals in a season

[RoverKyle]

I really want him to do well but a lot will need to fall in place for Brereton to hit heights you'd expect from a £7m signing.

He's quite good at running with the ball and taking on men but his shooting is completely sub par. He doesn't seem to have any ball striking ability. Most of his efforts are very tame. That's such a fundamental thing that he needs to be coached on. 

[JBiz]

6 minutes ago, RoverKyle said:

I really want him to do well but a lot will need to fall in place for Brereton to hit heights you'd expect from a £7m signing.

He's quite good at running with the ball and taking on men but his shooting is completely sub par. He doesn't seem to have any ball striking ability. Most of his efforts are very tame. That's such a fundamental thing that he needs to be coached on. 

Maybe not consistent enough to be compared to AA yet but I wish I’d scored 30+ yard chest and volleys regularly too..

 

(who am I kidding? I make Yeboah look like Kaba Diawara..)

 

[Miller11]

The idea of Brereton as the main man through the middle frightens me to death. I think he is the one player suited to Mowbray’s preferred system and particularly at the start of the season he looked a real outlet. I think his unorthodox but effective running with the ball is his strength. I don’t think he will ever have the end product to justify his fee though.

I’m not that up on world football these days, but I’d have thought he was miles away from being of a standard to play for Chile. I read some comments from their manager and it seemed his height was a factor... in all honesty I think his inclusion was more to do with the buzz on social media than merit. Still, will be a good experience and should aid his development. However, if there is an additional fee due to Forest if he gets a cap I’d really rather he didn’t get his token appearance.

[Sparks Rover]

1 hour ago, RoverKyle said:

I really want him to do well but a lot will need to fall in place for Brereton to hit heights you'd expect from a £7m signing.

He's quite good at running with the ball and taking on men but his shooting is completely sub par. He doesn't seem to have any ball striking ability. Most of his efforts are very tame. That's such a fundamental thing that he needs to be coached on. 

For me he could be like a Steve Bull.  Hard to get off the ball when he's running through. Of course his finishing needs work, but that's confidence for me.  I'd play him right through the middle and get him on the shoulder and into the channels and tur ning defences.  He's a strong boy and can worry big central defenders

 

Mowbray won't play that way though so fuck knows.

And we should sing "Diaz Diaz" when he scores...like the old "yellows" chant at corners 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Sparks Rover

[roversfan99]

6 hours ago, JBiz said:

Struggles with basics?

I would argue you could find 30 clips that support this view, and another 30 clips that show his first touch, short passing, crossing, shooting, strength, movement, dribbling skills etc are of a high level.

In terms of a “witch hunt” - whilst an extreme definition, the fact he was expensive meant that the expectation was instant. A handful of games first season, looking out of shape/confidence = he was effectively written off, advocated to be sent out on loan.. (ado den Haag la vista?)

Since, he’s basically just done what an average football fan would probably expect of any highly regarded potential young players; improved with age, time, starts and alongside his physical development.

Each to their own, I just would save the “bag of kak” comments for the Dixon Etuhu’s in blue and white.

 

 

3 hours ago, JBiz said:

That’s fair enough, however I don’t agree.

I think, if you take into account his utilisation, being played out of position mainly and being injured when he was, amongst other factors like poor team/manager performance;

He isn’t far off. As someone suggested, AA bagged five in his first full season, being under-utilised and played out wide.

With no changes to formation or manager - it wouldn’t be too surprising if he really kicks on in his preferred central berth. 

This "expectation was instant" theory is a myth. The issue was not that we had spent 7m on a player that we expected to instantly bag loads of goals, its that he looked totally alien to what to do on a football pitch. Struggling with basics is almost an understatement.

Why is advocating a loan spell part of a witch hunt, its a very constructive way of getting a player game time without impeding on our own results, which for 2 years, he was a liability when he played.

Armstrong got plenty of criticism for 18 months when he was playing wide but lets not pretend that his performances were comparable and thats not even factoring in price tag. One was a threat but not contributing as much as he perhaps could, the other for 2 years looked like a bumbling clown.

He was ok last season, perhaps exaggerated by how low his standards were from the first 2 years, but he contributed much more. Lets hope he continues to improve, I dont see him ever being a competent central striker to be fair though at this level.

[Sparks Rover]

4 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

 

This "expectation was instant" theory is a myth. The issue was not that we had spent 7m on a player that we expected to instantly bag loads of goals, its that he looked totally alien to what to do on a football pitch. Struggling with basics is almost an understatement.

Why is advocating a loan spell part of a witch hunt, its a very constructive way of getting a player game time without impeding on our own results, which for 2 years, he was a liability when he played.

Armstrong got plenty of criticism for 18 months when he was playing wide but lets not pretend that his performances were comparable and thats not even factoring in price tag. One was a threat but not contributing as much as he perhaps could, the other for 2 years looked like a bumbling clown.

He was ok last season, perhaps exaggerated by how low his standards were from the first 2 years, but he contributed much more. Lets hope he continues to improve, I dont see him ever being a competent central striker to be fair though at this level.

It is poor that he's been here 2 seasons and we still don't really know his best position.  He was up front for forest from what I remember. 

[JBiz]

2 hours ago, Sparks Rover said:

It is poor that he's been here 2 seasons and we still don't really know his best position.  He was up front for forest from what I remember. 

Yea he was 21 - but predominantly played upfront.

2 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

 

This "expectation was instant" theory is a myth. The issue was not that we had spent 7m on a player that we expected to instantly bag loads of goals, its that he looked totally alien to what to do on a football pitch. Struggling with basics is almost an understatement.

Why is advocating a loan spell part of a witch hunt, its a very constructive way of getting a player game time without impeding on our own results, which for 2 years, he was a liability when he played.

Armstrong got plenty of criticism for 18 months when he was playing wide but lets not pretend that his performances were comparable and thats not even factoring in price tag. One was a threat but not contributing as much as he perhaps could, the other for 2 years looked like a bumbling clown.

He was ok last season, perhaps exaggerated by how low his standards were from the first 2 years, but he contributed much more. Lets hope he continues to improve, I dont see him ever being a competent central striker to be fair though at this level.

A lot of the discussion I’d have here is what you’d view or consist as “low standards” or “looked totally alien” on a football pitch; as we’ve discussed plenty of times before, semantics.

I would describe BBs early days as underwhelming but also very much restricted / limited to a few appearances, some fleeting. For that, as this thread probably backs up, I wouldn’t call him “alien” to football specifically - id regard that stance as extremely harsh.

Same with describing Arma in league 1 and his first full season as “low standards”. I obviously agree with you that he’s hugely improved, but he had a level then and a different job in the team.

The way he’s improved with increased time in the team and in a preferred role, would it be a complete shock if Big Ben, the daft git, did the same?

Not to me, at least.

Edited June 5, 2021 by JBiz

[JacknOry]

Steve Bull - proper striker he was.