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4 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

1 goal in the league and missed 2 great chances that cost us points. 

You’ve decided he’s useless and won’t be swayed but 1 in 5 in the league is pretty good still.

You can’t pin today’s result on him for not finishing a chance that most may have given up on rather than forcing an opportunity.

As I said earlier if his finishing was perfect he wouldn’t be on Loan here! 

I’d be tempted to give Rothwell a start next time out but on current form they both should be ahead of Armstrong.

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Bristol City vs Blackburn Rovers, 02/09/18, 1.30pm, Ashton Gate.   Following a win against Lincoln City in the League Cup last night and the unveiling of the worst kept secret in football in

Alright r*vers fans? I'm most certainly not gonna gloat but had a couple of comments if you don't mind. Firstly, fair shout for bringing over 1,000 away fans all that way on a Sunday, cracki

We lost but at least nobody overreacted.   

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5 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

1 goal in the league and missed 2 great chances that cost us points. 

So it's all Palmer's fault that we lost today and drew at Ipswich not Mowbray making poor subs in both games, Not Armstrong missing a sitter and greedily not playing Graham in today, Not Raya for letting in a soft goal at Ipswich and 2 soft goals today. It's all Kasey Palmer's fault that we lost points.

For goodness sake wake up man he didn't even have the worse miss today (Armstrong gets that honour) and he certainly hasn't had the worst miss of the season, Elliott Bennett gets that honour and unlike Palmer he hasn't scored a goal this season despite playing in a similar position to Palmer. Yet you don't mention Armstrong or Bennett missing sitter you only mention Palmer and blame dropping points on him, talk about an agenda.

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2 minutes ago, Tom said:

You’ve decided he’s useless and won’t be swayed but 1 in 5 in the league is pretty good still.

You can’t pin today’s result on him for not finishing a chance that most may have given up on rather than forcing an opportunity.

As I said earlier if his finishing was perfect he wouldn’t be on Loan here! 

I’d be tempted to give Rothwell a start next time out but on current form they both should be ahead of Armstrong.

I think useless is a bit strong but I do feel he is a luxury we will soon find that we can’t afford. Good with tricks and then wasteful. He may become a good PL player with the right players around him and if he bulks up a bit but for Rovers he’s looking like the next Rochina.

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5 minutes ago, Stuart said:

I think useless is a bit strong but I do feel he is a luxury we will soon find that we can’t afford. Good with tricks and then wasteful. He may become a good PL player with the right players around him and if he bulks up a bit but for Rovers he’s looking like the next Rochina.

I'd say we don't have enough players like him of the starting 11 today he was the only one that looked like creating something, whereas the likes of say Bennett, Smallwood and Evans will work hard but lack any quality once they get into the final third. Tony talks about Artists and Soldiers I see a lot of soldiers but very few artists and artists win you games.

Edited by Ewood Ace
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13 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

So it's all Palmer's fault that we lost today and drew at Ipswich not Mowbray making poor subs in both games, Not Armstrong missing a sitter and greedily not playing Graham in today, Not Raya for letting in a soft goal at Ipswich and 2 soft goals today. It's all Kasey Palmer's fault that we lost points.

For goodness sake wake up man he didn't even have the worse miss today (Armstrong gets that honour) and he certainly hasn't had the worst miss of the season, Elliott Bennett gets that honour and unlike Palmer he hasn't scored a goal this season despite playing in a similar position to Palmer. Yet you don't mention Armstrong or Bennett missing sitter you only mention Palmer and blame dropping points on him, talk about an agenda.

Also no mention that the league goal he did score was a match winner!

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2 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

Really? 

Rothwell impress me. Ran with the ball, took players on, work hard. Palmer didnt do this. 

For me, Palmer did nothing in the game apart from miss a great chance. Ive not been impressed so far. Would prefer Rothwell to him. Palmer has shown to be show pony so far. I was expecting better. 

Lad just scored 2 in 2 games. 

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1 minute ago, Ewood Ace said:

I'd say we don't have enough players like him of the starting 11 today he was the only one that looked like creating something, whereas the likes of say Bennett, Smallwood and Evans will work hard but lack any quality once they get into the final third. Tony talks about Artists and Soldiers I see a lot of soldiers but very few artists and artists win you games.

Artists yes. Circus acts no.

Rothwell is far more creative in terms of his passing ability. Palmer seems to have quick feet but not quite quick enough for what he wants to do with the ball and it regularly gets caught under his feet before having to play a backwards ball. Armstrong and Dack are artists in that sense. Then you have a number 9 (Graham/Bretherton/Nuttall) so that’s 3 out of 6 midfield players. We then need those worker bees: 3 of Bennett, Evans, Travis, Smallwood and Reed(?). I don’t see how you can half Dack and Palmer, and Dack is the better player.

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Just now, Stuart said:

Rothwell is far more creative in terms of his passing ability. Palmer seems to have quick feet but not quite quick enough for what he wants to do with the ball and it regularly gets caught under his feet before having to play a backwards ball. Armstrong and Dack are artists in that sense. Then you have a number 9 (Graham/Bretherton/Nuttall) so that’s 3 out of 6 midfield players. We then need those worker bees: 3 of Bennett, Evans, Travis, Smallwood and Reed(?). I don’t see how you can half Dack and Palmer, and Dack is the better player.



Not sure I'd class Armstrong as a artist, his record in the Championship is not as good as Palmer's and on today's basis if he is going to play in his preferred position (through the middle) then he is going to have to bulk up too many times today he was eased of the ball. And playing 4-2-3-1 as we do if your midfield 2 do their job then you can have an attacking front 4. I'd personally when all fit like to see Palmer, Dack and Rothwell in the 3 positions behind Graham.

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2 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

Really? 

Rothwell impress me. Ran with the ball, took players on, work hard. Palmer didnt do this. 

For me, Palmer did nothing in the game apart from miss a great chance. Ive not been impressed so far. Would prefer Rothwell to him. Palmer has shown to be show pony so far. I was expecting better. 

 

8 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Artists yes. Circus acts no.

Rothwell is far more creative in terms of his passing ability. Palmer seems to have quick feet but not quite quick enough for what he wants to do with the ball and it regularly gets caught under his feet before having to play a backwards ball. Armstrong and Dack are artists in that sense. Then you have a number 9 (Graham/Bretherton/Nuttall) so that’s 3 out of 6 midfield players. We then need those worker bees: 3 of Bennett, Evans, Travis, Smallwood and Reed(?). I don’t see how you can half Dack and Palmer, and Dack is the better player.

There seems to be a bit of a myth forming whereby Palmer is a "show pony" with no end product and basically the opposite of Rothwell.

Yes, Palmer has missed a couple of good chances but he has 3 goals in 6 games, he is contributing directly to a goal every other game. Rothwell for all his industry hasnt directly contributed to one, although he did play the pass that played in Bennett to cross for Palmer to score the winner v Brentford.

Even today, Rothwell was a real bright spark when he came on but his final decision was lacking, no different to Palmer in that regard.

Palmer has the added advantage of having historical evidence of competence in the division. In 16 starts and 8 sub appearances for Huddersfield, before getting a serious injury, he contributed with 4 goals and 3 assists, as well as a goal in a solitary FA Cup game. He got another 2 goals and an assist in 2 starts and 13 sub appearances for Derby, and a further assist in the cup. Not ground breaking or enough to suggest any level of consistency, but hes not just a show pony.

For both, we have to appreciate that they are central players "doing a job out wide." For me, thats down to an imbalanced recruitment, albeit I think both players can play a big part.

Stuart, you mention that 3 of our front 6 need to be "worker bees" and Mowbray said again today that is what he will continue to play, I personally think there are times when we only need 2.

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2 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

For both, we have to appreciate that they are central players "doing a job out wide." For me, thats down to an imbalanced recruitment, albeit I think both players can play a big part.

Mowbray does have a strange view on wingers it seems that he will play anybody out there except proper natural wide men. Recently Palmer and Rothwell have played there both have played the bulk of their careers centrally, Bennett is playing there this season but all his best performances for us have been playing central, Armstrong and Samuel have played wide despite playing their careers as strikers. Last season Antonsson who played all his career as a striker was played out wide and at home to Oldham last year even Bell had a go as a winger. The only winger we have had over the last year was Chapman and he was used rather sparingly by Mowbray.  

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52 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

So it's all Palmer's fault that we lost today and drew at Ipswich not Mowbray making poor subs in both games, Not Armstrong missing a sitter and greedily not playing Graham in today, Not Raya for letting in a soft goal at Ipswich and 2 soft goals today. It's all Kasey Palmer's fault that we lost points.

For goodness sake wake up man he didn't even have the worse miss today (Armstrong gets that honour) and he certainly hasn't had the worst miss of the season, Elliott Bennett gets that honour and unlike Palmer he hasn't scored a goal this season despite playing in a similar position to Palmer. Yet you don't mention Armstrong or Bennett missing sitter you only mention Palmer and blame dropping points on him, talk about an agenda.

Did I say it was all Palmer's fault why we lost. Other players did miss chances and our defending was awful as said a number of times. 

You say Palmer had a good game and I wouldnt disagree with that. Rothwell did alot more than him in 30 mins then he did 65/70 mins. Thats my view. 

No agenda just disappointed with players performances. I already said Bennett and Lenihan were both poor. 

57 minutes ago, Tom said:

You’ve decided he’s useless and won’t be swayed but 1 in 5 in the league is pretty good still.

You can’t pin today’s result on him for not finishing a chance that most may have given up on rather than forcing an opportunity.

As I said earlier if his finishing was perfect he wouldn’t be on Loan here! 

I’d be tempted to give Rothwell a start next time out but on current form they both should be ahead of Armstrong.

Where did I say Palmer was useless? Love to see where I said that Tom or are you making it up? 

I havent the defeat on him but the finishing 1st half was awful and defending second half was the same. 

 

9 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

 

There seems to be a bit of a myth forming whereby Palmer is a "show pony" with no end product and basically the opposite of Rothwell.

Yes, Palmer has missed a couple of good chances but he has 3 goals in 6 games, he is contributing directly to a goal every other game. Rothwell for all his industry hasnt directly contributed to one, although he did play the pass that played in Bennett to cross for Palmer to score the winner v Brentford.

Even today, Rothwell was a real bright spark when he came on but his final decision was lacking, no different to Palmer in that regard.

Palmer has the added advantage of having historical evidence of competence in the division. In 16 starts and 8 sub appearances for Huddersfield, before getting a serious injury, he contributed with 4 goals and 3 assists, as well as a goal in a solitary FA Cup game. He got another 2 goals and an assist in 2 starts and 13 sub appearances for Derby, and a further assist in the cup. Not ground breaking or enough to suggest any level of consistency, but hes not just a show pony.

For both, we have to appreciate that they are central players "doing a job out wide." For me, thats down to an imbalanced recruitment, albeit I think both players can play a big part.

Stuart, you mention that 3 of our front 6 need to be "worker bees" and Mowbray said again today that is what he will continue to play, I personally think there are times when we only need 2.

We have already had this Palmer debate and I thought we agree to disagree on it. Clearly not. 

I have show you the stats for how many times Rothwell play wide left last season. Its was alot so why again are we having this debate yet again. 

IMO, Rothwell did alot more than Palmer. Thats my view. Disagree if you wish but we have to agree to disagree on. 

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10 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

Mowbray does have a strange view on wingers it seems that he will play anybody out there except proper natural wide men. Recently Palmer and Rothwell have played there both have played the bulk of their careers centrally, Bennett is playing there this season but all his best performances for us have been playing central, Armstrong and Samuel have played wide despite playing their careers as strikers. Last season Antonsson who played all his career as a striker was played out wide and at home to Oldham last year even Bell had a go as a winger. The only winger we have had over the last year was Chapman and he was used rather sparingly by Mowbray.  

Agreed. Theres a bit of a myth that old fashioned wingers dont exist anymore but I've provided lists of wingers throughout the Championship. I felt we should have made getting at least one in as an option in the summer a big priority.

I do understand why players who are naturally strikers/centrally based midfielders are played wide, but ideally wed have a winger on one side to offset the fact that on the other side, our wide man will naturally drift in. Players like Palmer and Rothwell can be useful wide in that they will come in and link with Dack etc. Players like Armstrong wide, assuming your striker is someone like Graham who can hold the ball up, can use being wide to make clever runs in behind the striker and exploit the space thats left. But if you have one of these, its best in my opinion to have someone on the other side who keeps the width most of the time.

 Wingers, and they dont have to be defensively irresponsible. Infact naturally central players will often prove even less useful defensively as they will naturally come inside at times and leave their full back exposed.

And @chaddyrovers the post wasnt just aimed at you. Just giving a few facts and a bit of meat on the bones against the flawed notion that he is a "show pony" without an end product.

Edited by roversfan99
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Just now, chaddyrovers said:

Did I say it was all Palmer's fault why we lost. Other players did miss chances and our defending was awful as said a number of times. 

You say Palmer had a good game and I wouldnt disagree with that. Rothwell did alot more than him in 30 mins then he did 65/70 mins. Thats my view. 

No agenda just disappointed with players performances. I already said Bennett and Lenihan were both poor. 

Where did I say Palmer was useless? Love to see where I said that Tom or are you making it up? 

I havent the defeat on him but the finishing 1st half was awful and defending second half was the same. 

 

We have already had this Palmer debate and I thought we agree to disagree on it. Clearly not. 

I have show you the stats for how many times Rothwell play wide left last season. Its was alot so why again are we having this debate yet again. 

IMO, Rothwell did alot more than Palmer. Thats my view. Disagree if you wish but we have to agree to disagree on. 

Rothwell has looked really good so far, but for me all his good moments have come when he drops deep centrally and always looks to go forward. I would not be playing him wide left. Even before the game started today you were saying you wouldn't start Palmer. I don't get what your problem is with him, he's the sort of player you need on the pitch because although his decision making is questionable at times, he's probably the main person in our team other than Dack who could produce a moment of magic. I last came on here a few hours ago and people were arguing, bad bad day today but we move on. Time to prepare for the villa game. COYB cheer up lads. 

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Something like this had been waiting to happen. 

I felt it was a 'typical' Rovers performance - started the game well, managed to get our noses in front, we had our customary purple patch period of 20-30 minutes we had by far the better of it and the opposition couldn't deal with us and should have capitalised on that to increase our lead, then we conspire to concede from minimal pressure (fair enough this time through an appalling free kick decision), then the game completely changes and we have no answer to it. As the game wore on we quickly ran out of ideas and ended up something of a shambles towards the end with Bristol almost walking the ball into our net in the last 10 minutes. Not much evidence of a Plan B in the offing from Rovers really.

For all the singing and dancing going on about our brilliant summer window we're still throwing Joe Nuttall onto the pitch to try and salvage a result away from home in the Championship. I'm sorry but that situation simply isn't good enough and we've had plenty of time to address that particular issue.

Goals we've conceded this season against Ipswich, Reading and today way too easy.

A wake up call for one or two. A reasonable start to the season, but we've issues to address. 

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35 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Did I say it was all Palmer's fault why we lost. Other players did miss chances and our defending was awful as said a number of times. 

 

 

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

1 goal in the league and missed 2 great chances that cost us points. 

Agree you never called him useless that was hyperbolic on my side I just don’t think the show pony label is fair considering he’s scored more than anyone early this season outside of Dack and Mulgrew.

 

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1 hour ago, JHRover said:

For all the singing and dancing going on about our brilliant summer window we're still throwing Joe Nuttall onto the pitch to try and salvage a result away from home in the Championship. I'm sorry but that situation simply isn't good enough and we've had plenty of time to address that particular issue.

Bang on. People kept saying when we had a fully fit team he’d be nowhere near the squad. Yet here we are, only Dack missing from our attacking options and we’re throwing him on trying to salvage something. He isn’t bloody good enough and as you rightly say, this man made situation is piss poor from the management.

Edited by Gavlar Somerset Rover!
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Anyone else have reservations regarding Palmer's attitude off the ball. Very skilful Player with the ball no doubting, but for Bristol's second goal when the move started right In front of the dugouts, he just stood still not far from halfway and allowed a runner to walk right off him and advance into our half. I noticed it at the game, he was stood In exactly the same position when the ball nestled in our net.

Jury well and truly out.

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47 minutes ago, Gavlar Somerset Rover! said:

Bang on. People kept saying when we had a fully fit team he’d be nowhere near the squad. Yet here we are, only Dack missing from our attacking options and we’re throwing him on trying to salvage something. He isn’t bloody good enough and as you rightly say, this man made situation is piss poor from the management.

Samuel??

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33 minutes ago, Songman said:

Anyone else have reservations regarding Palmer's attitude off the ball. Very skilful Player with the ball no doubting, but for Bristol's second goal when the move started right In front of the dugouts, he just stood still not far from halfway and allowed a runner to walk right off him and advance into our half. I noticed it at the game, he was stood In exactly the same position when the ball nestled in our net.

Jury well and truly out.

I have reservations over some of his decision making and his "football brain" they say you can't coach that but the kid clearly has a lot of potential to improve. He's a good player and it's still early days for him here, hopefully the longer he's here and the longer TM gets to work with him the better he'll be. Interesting to see how he progresses but there's enough there for us to persist with him in the side for me. 

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25 minutes ago, Butty said:

I have reservations over some of his decision making and his "football brain" they say you can't coach that but the kid clearly has a lot of potential to improve. He's a good player and it's still early days for him here, hopefully the longer he's here and the longer TM gets to work with him the better he'll be. Interesting to see how he progresses but there's enough there for us to persist with him in the side for me. 

Think I'd maybe be more confident with Williams playing behind him.

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Palmer should not play away from home against teams like that, for me Rothwell for Palmer in the starting 11 was a must yesterday.

I am not a huge Smallwood fan and can see why people didn't want him to start yesterday, however, he and Evans in that first half were superb in winning the ball back but Palmer and Co didn't do enough with the ball when they gave it to them after winning it.

4-1 was flattering for BCFC but a lesson to the team that the higher up the leagues you go it becomes even more important to take your chances, if we go 2-0 up in the first half as we should have done then it is perfect for our counter attacking game with Armstrong having space and Rothwell making space when he is on the pitch, but we didn't and BCFC did take the few chance they created.

It is a shame that this result is the one before the break, if we had lost this one first up then gone unbeaten we go in to this break post window feeling very happy that we will exceed our expectations of surviving in this league, as it is we have been given a big chunk of reality to chew for the next two weeks and we may only finish mid table, if we don't respond in the next game expect revolt!

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5 hours ago, Tom said:

 

Agree you never called him useless that was hyperbolic on my side I just don’t think the show pony label is fair considering he’s scored more than anyone early this season outside of Dack and Mulgrew.

 

To call him a show pony ignores much of the work he does, making himself available, regularly winning headers, etc. Yes, he's too clever at times, playing passes which put the receiver under pressure which I think shows he expects others to be at a higher level.

From what I've seen of Dack this season he's been quiet, especially judged against last year. The big difference is he has two or three opponents on him, as often occurred last season, but at this higher level it will be much harder for Dack to beat them all, not the case last year.

Where Palmer comes in is that he can be equally dangerous on the opposite side. As our season develops I believe our opposition will realise simply stopping Bradley Dack won't stop Rovers. This should force teams to spread their defensive play across the pitch rather than simply crowding out Dack.

Edited by Paul
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