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Ok, so the defence needs work , I think we can all agree on that. Below is what we have, if I left anyone out, please let me know, others on here would know more about the under 23s than I.  

GK- Raya Leutwiler

 Raya will start next season, I don't think there is any doubt about that. So, I think we need a more experienced back up. When Raya bust his face open, I personally feel he was rushed back. That must be because Mowbray doesn't trust Leutwiler. We need competition. I do like Raya a lot. He could be a top championship keeper. He is a bit small though. 

RB-Nyambe

I am not even including Bennett here and I think there may be a few good lads in the under 23s. I have no issue with Nyambe starting. Although it seems he may have fallen out of favour a bit. If we received an offer of circa £3-5 million, would you be tempted to cash in? Personally I wouldn't sell him. Again though, we need competition here.  

LB- Bell, Williams

Willaims can go. There are many issues with him, but I have never seen a player misplace as many passes as Williams does. One game against Portsmouth last season sticks in my mind, I think her got the assist 2nd half, but first half he must have given it away 7 times. We need serious competition for Bell. He looks good on the ball at times, he just really ,really worries me under the high ball. 

CB-Mulgrew, Lenihan, Rodwell, Wharton, Magloire, Platt

So this is where things get very interesting. Realistically one of Mulgrew and Lenihan need to go, would everyone agree on that? So, which one? Would people be tempted by a £5 million bid for Lenihan? 

Can what we have be coached to be better? I can't see Lenihan , Mulgrew or even Rodwell being happy sitting on the bench for the majority of the time, but something has got to give. 

Discuss 

 

Edited by Bigdoggsteel
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I'd be chucking this Magloire lad in now, nothing to lose. Mulgrew and Rodwell as a pairing is an absolute disaster, the titanic turned quicker. 

Of course we need to stick with TM, as despite his flailings, you have to say we have progressed season on season with him in charge. Relegated on a record points haul by GD with his points per game a

Ok, so the defence needs work , I think we can all agree on that. Below is what we have, if I left anyone out, please let me know, others on here would know more about the under 23s than I.   GK-

We should keep Lenihan, but we need someone else like him (but more experienced) for backup - he's becoming a leader and is rough and tough and the mistakes will get ironed out... I wince when he comes for headers he shouldn't.

Next to one of the two ruffians should be Mulgrew or an improvement on him. It's sad but Charlie is winding down and physically ailing. But we need someone to get a foot on the ball and be composed.

Rodwell is not that man unless he goes on a crash course in how to actually be a CB for me.

 

HOWEVER - I think in a 3 at the back, those 3 would be a decent mix, Lenihan in the centre.

Some competition HAS to be brought in though, Williams disposed of and bring Wharton/Magloire through.

 

More or less agree with everything else @Bigdoggsteel

Edited by S8 & Blue
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In Goal: Keep Raya, sign someone who can seriously put his place under pressure. Release Leutwiler if its cost effective.

Right Back: We need a backup for Nyambe

Left Back: I'd keep Bell as 2nd choice left back. Get rid of Williams. If you believe that the best way to recruitment is to constantly replace the weakest member of your 1st 11 then a new left back would be top of the list in the summer.

Centre Back: Loan out Wharton, Magloire. Maybe let Platt go but i'm not 100 % sure on that. We are going to get a really good look at Rodwell in the next month or so while Darragh 'Long Ball' Lenihan is out, he's got a long run of games to learn his new position, if he doesn't improve then maybe we let him go but i'd be looking to keep him at this stage.

As for the first choice pair, I think we need a new first choice one but I couldn't tell you which one I would get rid of. Mulgrew currently gives us an extra dimension with his set pieces, I also think defensively some people under rate his abilities, maybe he's a tad too slow. Lenihan on the other hand has had a real patchy season, has looked really good in places and made some mistakes in others. Neither him nor Mulgrew are going to start 46 games for us next year either. The way we play at the moment then we'd be better off going to buy a solid CB who's dominant in the air.

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GK's- Raya in my opinion would benefit hugely from an experienced goalkeeping coach, he's fantastic at reaction saves but his command of his area and decision making is very poor. Leutwiler I have only seen play twice but he did fine both times, Mowbray doesn't seem to have too much faith in him and I still believe that the main reason he was signed was to make sure we didn't play during international weekends last season. Is Raya brilliant of course not does he make mistakes of course he does but so do all goalkeepers in this league and unless you spend a massive sum of money then you won't get much better and I think we have other areas where its more important to spend big money. As for Leutwiler from what I have seen he looks a perfectly able deputy. 

 

RB- Nyambe has been treated poorly by the manager over the last few weeks in my opinion, he should be our first choice right back. Bennett is not a full back and should never be playing there again. We need to be bringing in some adequate back up to Nyambe in the summer.

 

LB- I'd happily get rid of both Bell and Williams. A new first choice left back is one the main signings we need in the summer. If I had to keep one of them as back up then I would choose Williams but I'd happily use Jack Evans as back up.

 

CB's- A big dominant experienced leader to go straight into the team is an absolute must in the summer as it has been for the last 3 summers. Mulgrew for me is currently our best defender and would look much better alongside a dominant experienced partner. Lenihan has for me been the biggest disappointment of the season, I personally feel that he has regressed on his performances at this level from 2 years ago. Which is a real shame as I really thought that he would kick on this season, he's a 25 year old international, who's played over 100 games for the club but he is still incredibly rash in his decision making. Rodwell for me isn't suited to a back 2 if he is going to play at centre back then it has to be in a back 3. I Can't see Platt and Wharton making it here. Maglorie needs to be given some games before the end of the season to whether he is up to this level.

 

But for me the biggest problem with our defence is that the manager doesn't appear to know how to set up a defence effectively.

Edited by Ewood Ace
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When you have on the park a back line of Nyambe, Lenihen, Mulgrew and say Williams for experience it should be okay, never great at this level but it should be reasonably reliable and not let in the goals it did. 

Start having that disrupted for whatever reason and start plugging square gaps with round pegs and you are asking for trouble. The first choice defence is bang average at best in the championship and the back up is almost non existent in terms of being proper defenders.

Then we wonder why we have problems.

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I don't know lads, what setting up is there in a straight back 4? You have two international centre halves, one is our club captain and extremely experienced. Should they now be able to organise the defence themselves? 

We have seen individual error after individual error this season, again, what can the manager do? In my opinion if those there aren't able to play in a straight back 4 and cut out the individual errors, then they need to be replaced. That's the managers job. I don't buy this stuff about them not being coached to defend. 

If you have a colleague who is crap at doing their job, is it your managers fault? Where is the personal responsibility here. 

OK, let's use Liverpool as an example. They have defensive issues last season, so the manager signed van Djik. Have they completely changed their style and tactics? I don't think so. It's a personnel change. 

What I see from the posts here is that people are saying we need to do something at centre half, but people disagree on whether Mulgrew or Lenihan make way. It's not an easy fix. 

 

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1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

RB-Nyambe

I am not even including Bennett here and I think there may be a few good lads in the under 23s. I have no issue with Nyambe starting. Although it seems he may have fallen out of favour a bit. If we received an offer of circa £3-5 million, would you be tempted to cash in? Personally I wouldn't sell him. Again though, we need competition here.  

I'd be happy if Nyambe was at RB, starting from Sunday.

Would I sell? Depends if we had someone lined up. If TM has his eye on someone who he felt was superior,  would not cost significantly more, and the only way to get him was to sell then I possibly would. But that probably applies to all positions !

 

1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

LB- Bell, Williams

Willaims can go. There are many issues with him, but I have never seen a player misplace as many passes as Williams does. One game against Portsmouth last season sticks in my mind, I think her got the assist 2nd half, but first half he must have given it away 7 times. We need serious competition for Bell. He looks good on the ball at times, he just really ,really worries me under the high ball. 

Purely on picking a team to win a game, I would play with Williams as I think he is the best of two poor defenders. I've said this all along but his displays at Preston / Wigan were so bad that I started to change opinion. However after seeing  the Bristol City and then the Reading games, for me it's clear he's a generally better player than Bell.

The dilemma is that I think we obviously need a better player for left back at this level, and there's probably more re-sale potential in Bell. As they are both dodgy, I'd maybe play Bell as the more games he plays, the more he will be classed as having Championship experience. 

Next season, I really hope we have new left back in and one of these two has left.

1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

CB-Mulgrew, Lenihan, Rodwell, Wharton, Magloire, Platt

So this is where things get very interesting. Realistically one of Mulgrew and Lenihan need to go, would everyone agree on that? So, which one? Would people be tempted by a £5 million bid for Lenihan? 

Can what we have be coached to be better? I can't see Lenihan , Mulgrew or even Rodwell being happy sitting on the bench for the majority of the time, but something has got to give. 

From a playing perspective I'd like to see Mulgrew and a Samba / Dann / Duffy style bigger defender. I'd still like to have Lenihan as cover.

However, if the business model is bring players through and sell for a profit to keep within FFP, then we'd have to keep playing Lenihan until his value is at his peak.

 

Good thread.

Edited by Hasta
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12 minutes ago, Hasta said:

I'd be happy if iamb was at RB, starting from Sunday.

Would I sell? Depends if we had someone lined up. If TM has his eye on someone who he felt was superior,  would not cost significantly more, and the only way to get him was to sell then I possibly would. But that probably applies to all positions !

 

Purely on picking a team to win a game, I would play with Williams as I think he is the best of two poor defenders. I've said this all along but his displays at Preston / Wigan were so bad that I started to change opinion. However after seeing  the Bristol City and then the Reading games, for me it's clear he's a generally better player than Bell.

The dilemma is that I think we obviously need a better player for left back at this level, and there's probably more re-sale potential in Bell. As they are both dodgy, I'd maybe play Bell as the more games he played, the more he will be classed as having Championship experience. 

Next season, I really hope we have new left back in and one of these two has left.

From a playing perspective I'd like to see Mulgrew and a Samba / Dann / Duffy style bigger defender. I'd still like to have Lenihan as cover.

However, if the business model is bring players through and sell for a profit to keep within FFP, then we'd have to keep playing Lenihan until his value is at his peak.

 

Good thread.

You make a good point about Lenihan. The fact he has come through the academy, is relelativley young and therfore will have a sell on value at some point, is he undroppable? Factoring in that he has huge potential to improve as centre halves peak around 28. Should we stick with him? 

Then with Mulgrew you have his incredible dead ball deliveries. Plus he is a good defender, club captain and vastly experienced. I just think he lacks pace and that can punsih you ruthlessly at this level. Can ye imagine him on the bench? 

I think we all agree Lenihan looked better beside Rodwell. He has to let Mulgrew lead when he plays, but he seems to enjoy leading himself. 

The more I think about it, the more I keep thinking the solution could be 3 at the back. I just don't see Lenihan and Mulgrew leaving or being dropped. With the 2 of them and Rodwell, 3 at the back could work, in theory. We need an experienced and physical center half to be added to the mix anyway regardless. 

Edited by Bigdoggsteel
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2 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

Howard Kendall and Sam Allardyce knew how to set up defences with largely players they inherited. It's a skill that our present manager doesn't have. 

The key word there is inherited. Allardyce inherited high quality defenders. We have been dodgy at the back for years now. Like him or not Duffy was as solid as we have had since the premier league days. Hence why he is playing in the premiership now. 

Why do you give professional defenders playing in a straight back 4 a let off by constantly pushing the issues on the manager? We aren't this cavelier team leaking goals because we are so open. It's usually because of individual errors we concede. 

I suppose a way of thinking about it is this- if Mick Mccarthy or Neil Warnock came in would they keep the same defence? 

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1 minute ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Get rid of both left backs; buy 2 new centre halves and a right back for competition.

Mulgrew has 1, maybe 2, seasons left in him, Lenihan needs competition and I'm adamant our midfield would be better with Rodwell playing in it, despite his protestations he is a centre half naturally.

If we buy two centre halves what will we do with Lenihan and Mulgrew? Also, what will we do with all the young lads coming through? 

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23 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

Howard Kendall and Sam Allardyce knew how to set up defences with largely players they inherited. It's a skill that our present manager doesn't have. 

To be fair to TM - the game has moved on, with tackling largely banned. Defensive master classes are few and far between these days - even from the top teams.

 

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Just now, DavidMailsTightPerm said:

To be fair to TM - the game has moved on, with tackling largely banned. Defensive master classes are few and far between these days - even from the top teams.

 

Look in the at the teams at the top in any division in their goals against column.  Good managers will have a well organised defence that doesn't give away soft goals. Our manager doesn't know how to do it

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4 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

Look in the at the teams at the top in any division in their goals against column.  Good managers will have a well organised defence that doesn't give away soft goals. Our manager doesn't know how to do it

Just wondering if you can pinpoint some goals we’ve conceded where organisational issues were mainly to blame rather than individual mistakes/loss of bottle.

I didn’t think we conceded too many from set pieces for example but I might be getting that wrong.

Genuine question.

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9 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

Look in the at the teams at the top in any division in their goals against column.  Good managers will have a well organised defence that doesn't give away soft goals. Our manager doesn't know how to do it

Ok, you have made that point 3 times today. At this point you aren't contributing anything to the conversation repeating it. 

Would you keep all of our current defenders so?

Edited by Bigdoggsteel
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51 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

 OK, let's use Liverpool as an example. They have defensive issues last season, so the manager signed van Djik. Have they completely changed their style and tactics? I don't think so. It's a personnel change.

I think Liverpool have changed there style this season. They have changed their system and they have dropped off their high press. Rather than play at a real high intensity they now look to control the ball more and are much more possession orientated.

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Just now, chaddyrovers said:

I would let Luetwiler go in the summer. 

sell Williams. ]

Yes we need a right back, centre back and left back. 

Would keep Bell. Use Grayson as 5th choice centre back next season

Why use Grayson.? Not good enough.  Are we trying to get in the higher division?

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1 minute ago, Ewood Ace said:

I think Liverpool have changed there style this season. They have changed their system and they have dropped off their high press. Rather than play at a real high intensity they now look to control the ball more and are much more possession orientated.

Perhaps, but from their fans it seems the number 1 reason for their improvement defensively is the addition of Alison and Van Djik. 

 

Edited by Bigdoggsteel
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52 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

The key word there is inherited. Allardyce inherited high quality defenders. We have been dodgy at the back for years now. Like him or not Duffy was as solid as we have had since the premier league days. Hence why he is playing in the premiership now. 

Why do you give professional defenders playing in a straight back 4 a let off by constantly pushing the issues on the manager? We aren't this cavelier team leaking goals because we are so open. It's usually because of individual errors we concede. 

I suppose a way of thinking about it is this- if Mick Mccarthy or Neil Warnock came in would they keep the same defence? 

They would play their best right back that's for sure. Think when you look at our defence it starts from the goalkeeper. He can save shots as well as most can but anything in and around the box to think about and he's crap. That bring panic to the defence which leads to more errors.

 

Defenders, Nyambe should be playing every game. He's no finish article but if he was he wouldn't be playing for us. He does have pace, power and height so can be worked on.

 

Centre halves, one of Lenihan or Mulgrew would drop to the bench for me. For me and it will go down like a lead balloon but Mulgrew drops out and someone like Liam Lindsey would be brought in. I like the defenders to try and defend first and Mulgrew will start to deteriorate soon.

 

Left back I'd keep both Bell and Williams but with William's being 4th choice centre half. We should look to bring in someone like Jay Da Silva whose on loan at Barnsley at the moment. 

 

Goalkeeper is a tricky position because you wouldn't want another young goalkeeper. Someone with experience at this level even if it's for a season or two to play back up and step in when performances dip. 

 

Rodwell if he's signed would be a holding midfielder for me. Isn't a centre back and you can tell when he's defending. Let Smallwood go and put him into his role.

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I’d flog Williams and Bell at the first opportunity - hopefully a couple of League One clubs will take them off our hands. I’d not give Rodwell a new deal - he’s a defensive midfielder who doesn’t have the body for the role anymore. I’d be looking to get a centre half to pair alingside Lenihan (the one worth persisting with for me) with Mulgrew taking more of a squad role, while a left back is obviously a huge priority. Also a RB to compete with Nyambe.

In summary - a heck of a lot to do! 

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37 minutes ago, S8 & Blue said:

Just wondering if you can pinpoint some goals we’ve conceded where organisational issues were mainly to blame rather than individual mistakes/loss of bottle.

I didn’t think we conceded too many from set pieces for example but I might be getting that wrong.

Genuine question.

The manager takes responsibility. He coaches the team, works with them every day, picks the players on matchday, has had chance to replace any he doesn't think are good enough. If all those goals are down to individual mistakes or loss of bottle then that still falls back onto Mowbray - he's signed/kept/coached these players so if they keep losing their bottle in games or making frequent mistakes then it is his fault.

I've no interest in how many goals we concede from set-pieces any more than how many we score from set-pieces. It doesn't matter. They're all goals.

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