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Tony Mowbray Discussion


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49 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

Thanks for being polite with your reply.

My posts were more trying to point out to Mercer that the comparisons he was making were unfair regarding relegation and were in my opinion complete nonsense regarding our promotion season when you looked at the facts. I think some of the criticism of Mowbray is grotesque because frequently it is based upon that sort of bending of the facts. I also dislike the personalised abuse of him - "feck off" etc- which I think is totally undeserved. 

I actually think Warnock has a superb record as a Championship manager although I suspect he won't get Middlesbrough up this season.

Yeah I think a fairer comparison with the two managers is that they have turned their clubs round in a fraction of the time which is an uncomfortable fact for TM.

That said neither gig was easy although of the 3 TM arguably had it the hardest. Boro were strong candidates for relegation under the clueless Woodgate so I still think that was a heck of an achievement. TM on balance did inherit a slightly harder situation, but I don't think the situations are vastly dissimilar (squads decimated by cutbacks and an utterly clueless manager.) So I think it's probably a fair comparison albeit not an exact like for like as our situation and the points total required that season was harder. As comparisons go I think it's fairly reasonable and doesn't reflect well on TM.

Similarly with Stoke it's not an exact replica of the situation as he had more time. However Stoke had been a rotten club with many managers experienced and young and up and coming failing there. they had had years of problems so again it wasn't an easy situation. This one is less comparable though as a transfer window and the number of games is significantly different. 

I guess the point is whilst not like for like, is that a) both achieved what was needed and above expectations last season (contrast with TMs plodding on) and b) in less than half the time have their clubs challenging for promotion. Both aspects to me show that they are miles better managers than TM. 

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My take is:

Season 1 huge ask, didn't achieve it but enough positives and change to keep on. 

Season 2 promoted and achieved what was needed. Not an excellent job given our budget some dicey transfers and first few months in League 1 but a good job nevertheless. 

Season 3 achieved target of mid table. On paper a good job. In practice the latter half of the season  include that horrible winless run, with his basic errors and blowing the budget really take the shine off and alarm bells ringing. With high standards for these reasons he should have gone at the end of this season but I can see the argument that he deserved another chance. I thought the errors outweighed the pros albeit the finish was acceptable 

Season 4 lost the plot. No keepers at the end of the season (and arguably during it), no long term defensive solutions, more money blown, more bizarre decisions, no realistic/serious play off challenge. Combined with last season momentum has to swing towards getting rid. 

Season 5: Same issues from basic errors, total stagnation. Further away from playoffs than last year. Poor defensive recruitment. Has to go.

Anywhere else would have been potted at the end of the last 2 seasons and during this one, of which only after the first season back in the championship would he have any sort of case to argue contrary to sacking  Only at Rovers with no accountability does he ride out the last two seasons and half of this one. 

Incidentally like Souness I think once the errors start to come (second half of our first championship return season) then it's a downhill slope from there and it's hard to recover from. The trick is to stop the rot before it becomes rot. And whereas it may be debatable when that point was we have definitely past it. Got to get rid. 

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1 hour ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

As you say, the facts don't lie - the 51 points we got in our relegation season would have kept us up last season.

My posts are designed to show that Mowbray should not be blamed for our relegation. He achieved a 50% improvement on his predecessor in our points per game return; in no walk of life does a manager who achieves that with the same resources as before get described as having "failed". 

He undoubtedly failed to keep us up, he had a more difficult task than O'Neill and Warnock so its difficult to directly compare (although them 2 are better managers capable of improvements in a much shorter time frame) but he did fail to keep us up even if Coyle was more responsible. This nonsense about points per game extrapolated or his win percentage is all irrelevant, his first task was to keep us up, it was a hard if not impossible one and he failed it.

He wasnt lucky to get promoted though as you say, he was an idiot to dismiss the prospect of a league title but he got us promoted convincingly and comfortably. 

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7 hours ago, frosty said:

And what was the trigger for them becoming a promotion challenging team almost overnight and then getting promoted? Binning the managers that had them finishing about 13th every year and pushing the boat out for an excellent one.

I don't want to have to wait 15 years for that like they had to.......

A change of ownership was the trigger firstly

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6 hours ago, Mercer said:

We are in a mess.

Financially, we've lost something like £15million / season on average since V's took over and IMO, never really threatened to get back to the PL.

The owners have kept paying the bills and despite your numerous claims of your phase of 'tipping point' they keep financing the club. 

6 hours ago, Mercer said:

You say "Mowbray has put a proper football infrastructure in place, proper football recruitment and Scouting departments in place plus data analysis department" - well what feckin good has it done? 

Plenty of good and its investment for now and the future going forward. It's not just about the short term but long term. 

6 hours ago, Mercer said:

Mowbray did get us up at 1st attempt from League 1 but he took us down in the first place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  We were the best resourced club in League 1 but, IMO, we unconvincingly limped home behind the mighty Wigan

Mowbray said at Blues back in Feb 2019 that he was appointed to keep the club up in the Championship.  HE FAILED.   

O'Neill and Warnock were appointed by Stoke and Middlesbrough last season to keep them in the Championship

Firstly Michael O'Neill had a lot more time there to turn it around. Warnock took over Boro who werent in the bottom 3 when he took over. 

When Mowbray took over here we had 15 games to go and he got 22 points. The problem was Coyle and his awful record here. 

Mowbray delivered what his objective was. Promotion was delivered. 

 

6 hours ago, Mercer said:

IMO, Mowbray's stuff about being a possession based, progressive, attacking team is a myth, just bullsh1t for the owners and his band of happy clappers

There that term of 'happy clappers' instead of accepting other people views who want to back Mowbray. I can accept that you want a change without any insults. 

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It totally undermines any defence of Mowbray to totally dismiss the relegation. Obviously Coyle was worse than Mowbray and carries much more blame but no one has ever tried to defend Coyle because we all know how bad he was. But there is no use extrapolating 15 results at the end of the season, quite a few against teams with nothing to play for to try and calculate where we might have finished. His first task was to keep us up, a difficult task, and he failed. It is as black and white as that. 

Equally, I feel that Mercer is undermining his points by dismissing the fact that Mowbray got us promoted.

Ultimately that first season and a half are not why so many are in favour of a managerial change anyway.

Regarding all of the supposed long term upgrades, the success of such projects only become tangible and measureable when they start leading to better results. If they do indeed exist and lay foundations to improve us, they still dont strengthen the managers position as another manager can use them, Mowbray wont get the scouting and analysis tools as part of his settlement!

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43 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

The owners have kept paying the bills and despite your numerous claims of your phase of 'tipping point' they keep financing the club. 

Plenty of good and its investment for now and the future going forward. It's not just about the short term but long term. 

Firstly Michael O'Neill had a lot more time there to turn it around. Warnock took over Boro who werent in the bottom 3 when he took over. 

When Mowbray took over here we had 15 games to go and he got 22 points. The problem was Coyle and his awful record here. 

Mowbray delivered what his objective was. Promotion was delivered. 

 

There that term of 'happy clappers' instead of accepting other people views who want to back Mowbray. I can accept that you want a change without any insults. 

So far they've kept financing the club.  As sure as tomorrow is Tuesday, a tipping point will come - seen it too many times in business.

So, what has the investment in infrastructure brought us?  Players good enough to get us promoted, no.  An improved league position, no.  Improved players who we sell for big money, no.  So what is the point?  A client of mine had sales outstripping his manufacturing capacity so he invested in new manufacturing plant.  He lowered his unit production costs, fulfilled the demand for his product and substantially improved his unit and overall profitability.  An investment that WORKED producing TANGIBLE results here and now.

Flip side - O'Neill and Warnock have brought about improvements in Stoke and M'boro  which see them both above Rovers in something like a qurter of the time Mowbray has had.  That is not evolution and a slow build but a feckin result.

Mowbray FAILED in his objective of keeping us up.  Analogy, you get married and promise father-in-law you will look after his daughter.  You give her a slap one night but bring her flowers home from work the next day - have you kept your promise and looked after her?

Don't be so sensitive.  If folk call me a 'boo boy' then fine.  If folk think you are a happy clapper just smile and accept it.

Edited by Mercer
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1 hour ago, Mercer said:

So far they've kept financing the club.  As sure as tomorrow is Tuesday, a tipping point will come - seen it too many times in business.

Mercer, you have mention a tipping point scenario so many times I've lost count, you been better off going on the ITV show instead.

1 hour ago, Mercer said:

So, what has the investment in infrastructure brought us?  Players good enough to get us promoted, no.  An improved league position, no.  Improved players who we sell for big money, no.  So what is the point?  

You keep looking at things as short term instead looking in the long term and benefit of the club. 

A proper scouting and recruitment departments which we havent had since Allardyce time at the club. 

Players have improved and we have players who would bring in money to club like Armstrong, Dack, Kaminski, Travis. 

1 hour ago, Mercer said:

Mowbray FAILED in his objective of keeping us up. 

He got 22 points from 15 games. He did a good job that season. And it was Coyle fault we went down. His defensive signings were awful. Brown, Greer, Hendrie were 3 useless signings. I wonder why you wont attach any blame to Coyle?funny that really. 

 

1 hour ago, Mercer said:

Don't be so sensitive

You dont cant stand that people dont want rid Mowbray and used terms like that wind people. But it just weaken your point and arguments. 

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1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

Mercer, you have mention a tipping point scenario so many times I've lost count, you been better off going on the ITV show instead.

 

 

You dont cant stand that people dont want rid Mowbray and used terms like that wind people. But it just weaken your point and arguments. 

Yeah you’d never try to wind anyone up would you 🤣

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On 04/08/2019 at 00:28, Neal said:

No lessons learned. No possession football. No plan B. No Joe Rothwell. No defence. No defenders signed. No method. No Ryan Nyambe. No positivity. No progress. No idea. 

 

You're a nice bloke, you've done a good job but this is as far you will take us. Don't ruin your legacy, do the right thing and step aside. Charlton are relegation fodder so what does that make us? 

Go. 

This is the first post from over eighteen months ago on this thread. Ok, so Nyambe and Rothwell play more now. But they've stagnated and might bugger off for free sooner rather than later. Other than that, has anything changed? 370 - yep, count 'em! -pages on a "Mowbray Out" thread means that he's not the man to take us into the Premier League. He wasn't 18 months ago, he isn't now and he won't be in the future.

How about a request to change this thread title to "The Never-ending Story"?

Certainly, our attempt to break into the playoff positions is starting to feel that way!!!

Edited by TheRoversReturn
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6 minutes ago, TheRoversReturn said:

This is the first post from over eighteen months ago on this thread. Ok, so Nyambe and Rothwell play more now. But they've stagnated and might bugger off for free sooner rather than later. Other than that, has anything changed? 370 - yep, count 'em! -pages on a "Mowbray Out" thread means that he's not the man to take us into the Premier League. He wasn't 18 months ago, he isn't now and he won't be in the future.

How about a request to change this thread title to "The Never-ending Story"?

Certainly, our attempt to break into the playoff positions is starting to feel that way!!!

Great spot and one I fully agree with

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I think Mowbray is feeling the pressure of his early season eulogising!

Everyday there’s something else now...the pitch, the schedule, COVID, injuries, budget, size of the analyst room etc...when a manager starts to do that it’s because basically they’ve blown their load.

He’s been talking about this journey and our ‘transition’ into this possession based team for 18 months but the end of the road is in his sights now. This is his team, playing his way and sadly it’s not working. That leaves managers in a really tight spot...

I really hope it doesn’t become to painful for him. I genuinely think he’s a good guy who’s done a good job but he’s in danger of ruining all of his own hard work.

Those suggesting he’s immoral and topping up his pension are wrong. By all accounts he’s and absolute gentleman and no one works harder. Spends a lot of time away from his family.

Really hope he can turn it around but it’s starting to feel like the beginning of the end for him. Be nice if he got the Celtic job tbh...then he could leave with his head held high and we can freshen it up. Let’s see.

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12 hours ago, perthblue02 said:

Apart from 2007./08 and 2012/13

Ok, one of the highest. Makes no difference and to sack him after 15 games would’ve exacerbated the ‘basket club’ reputation and more importantly weakened our chances of coming straight back up.

 

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19 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

I think Mowbray is feeling the pressure of his early season eulogising!

Everyday there’s something else now...the pitch, the schedule, COVID, injuries, budget, size of the analyst room etc...when a manager starts to do that it’s because basically they’ve blown their load.

He’s been talking about this journey and our ‘transition’ into this possession based team for 18 months but the end of the road is in his sights now. This is his team, playing his way and sadly it’s not working. That leaves managers in a really tight spot...

I really hope it doesn’t become to painful for him. I genuinely think he’s a good guy who’s done a good job but he’s in danger of ruining all of his own hard work.

Those suggesting he’s immoral and topping up his pension are wrong. By all accounts he’s and absolute gentleman and no one works harder. Spends a lot of time away from his family.

Really hope he can turn it around but it’s starting to feel like the beginning of the end for him. Be nice if he got the Celtic job tbh...then he could leave with his head held high and we can freshen it up. Let’s see.

Not sure I agree.

One week he was banging on abut stats and how many chances they have, possession etc etc. 

The next week he says he'll judge with his eyes and not stats....

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13 hours ago, Tom said:

Mowbray took over with 15 games to go and us only 3 points from safety, hardly a lost cause, we had some bad luck in that run in but threw away a few games late on (ffs Gallagher) and had some awful performances to boot, remember Barnsley at home feeling like a surrender. 

When O’Neill took over at Stoke they were 6 points adrift, he had the January window but ultimately he succeeded.

The only facts around our relegation season is we didn’t quite do enough.

As you say, the facts don’t lie.

He should have kept us up, we had the opportunites too, Norwich springs to mind. He screwed up our relegation fight as I believe we should have survived, but he cannot shut a team out. 

The one aspect that pisses me off is the fact he is obsessed with us trying to play like Liverpool. Our formation, playing a deep lying forward with wide forwards, possession with no purpose, lack of cohesion, he just cannot coach. So trying to copy seems foolhardy and we clearly need better. We have good players, we should have our own style, developed to suit our strengths, but alas TM seems to lack originality and creative thought. We need better, the table does not lie, we have stagnated, 3 years is a serious time frame in football. Someone call a cab. 

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34 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Be nice if he got the Celtic job tbh...then he could leave with his head held high and we can freshen it up. Let’s see.

Ha ha I take it you're joking right? I have more chance of getting the Celtic job than Tony Mowbray.

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51 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

I think Mowbray is feeling the pressure of his early season eulogising!

Everyday there’s something else now...the pitch, the schedule, COVID, injuries, budget, size of the analyst room etc...when a manager starts to do that it’s because basically they’ve blown their load.

He’s been talking about this journey and our ‘transition’ into this possession based team for 18 months but the end of the road is in his sights now. This is his team, playing his way and sadly it’s not working. That leaves managers in a really tight spot...

I really hope it doesn’t become to painful for him. I genuinely think he’s a good guy who’s done a good job but he’s in danger of ruining all of his own hard work.

Those suggesting he’s immoral and topping up his pension are wrong. By all accounts he’s and absolute gentleman and no one works harder. Spends a lot of time away from his family.

Really hope he can turn it around but it’s starting to feel like the beginning of the end for him. Be nice if he got the Celtic job tbh...then he could leave with his head held high and we can freshen it up. Let’s see.

Two questions...

1, Why would Celtic want Mowbray back?

2, Do you feel daft for suggesting that we'll finish in the top two after we lost to Watford?

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6 minutes ago, Darrenbot said:

John Barnes gives him a challenge to be the worst ever.

Barnes' record at Celtic was far from the worst, which is somewhat surprising (albeit he didn't get that many games).

I think Lou Macari and Liam Brady might be more on a par with Mowbray at Celtic if I remember correctly. 

Edited by oldjamfan1
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Just now, oldjamfan1 said:

Barnes' record at Celtic was far from the worst, which is somewhat surprising (albeit he didn't get that many games).

I think Lou Macari and Liam Brady might be more on a par with Mowbray at Celtic if I remember correctly. T

the infamous  Inverness Caledonian Thistle defeat was when Barnes was manager,thats what i remember most of his time as Celtic boss.

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  • Backroom

I don't have any issue with Mowbray's performance in his first two and a half seasons. I never blamed him for us being relegated, he got us up at the first attempt from L1 and we consolidated in mid-table the season after that.

The last season and a half have been pretty shit though. Long stretches of really poor football, the famed death spirals, questionable transfers and refusal to address our obvious defensive problems, increasingly stupid quotes in the media and no sense of real direction or purpose. 

TM did a decent job for us initially - better than I would have expected. He's tried to give the club some structure with the scouting network. He's achieved a trust with the owners which has allowed him to keep our better players and have some money to spend on building the squad. There have been positives under his tenure.

Unfortunately as with most managers he's reached the point where he's taken us as far as he can. His limitations as a tactician and a motivator are holding us back. I think some of the comments and criticism towards him are too harsh, but a significant amount of them are completely legitimate and make a very strong case for change.

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