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5 hours ago, K-Hod said:

he won’t be changing his views, he’s a Tory voter no matter what,

My stance is no different than JIm or Gav or other people who always vote Labour at elections. So I don't see why certain people have so a problem with me being Conservative voter. 

I don't see these people calling out Jim or Gav for an example for always being Labour Voter so what's the different if you don't mind me asking? 

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54 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

The Bank of England has revised its 2021 growth forecast upwards to 7.25%, the fastest economic growth rate since official records began in 1949. Project Fear has morphed into Project Opportunity. 

 

What you fail to point out is that last year due to government mismanagement last year the economy shrank by a record 9.9%.

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Just now, Ewood Ace said:

What you fail to point out is that last year due to government mismanagement last year the economy shrank by a record 9.9%.

I have already answered several times why our economy shrank by so much and this was to be expected when we are so much based on the service and financially sector in our economy.  

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

I have already answered several times why our economy shrank by so much and this was to be expected when we are so much based on the service and financially sector in our economy.  

We had the biggest contraction of any major economy. You can use your line from Tory HQ about a services economy but that is simply propaganda. America's economy is very service based and their economy last year shrank by 3.5% compared to our 9.9%. The French economy is service based and it shrank by 1.6% less than out last year. Even a minor economy like Cyprus that is very heavily service based only shrank by 5%. The reason our economy shrank so much was government mismanagement.

19 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

My stance is no different than JIm or Gav or other people who always vote Labour at elections. So I don't see why certain people have so a problem with me being Conservative voter. 

The difference with you is that you fail to see a single fault with your party or it's leader. 

Edited by Ewood Ace
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14 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

I have already answered several times why our economy shrank by so much and this was to be expected when we are so much based on the service and financially sector in our economy.  

If that's the case then surely you should accept that the growth this year is just the country picking up some of the slack caused last year and that whilst it's clearly better than not growing we will still be behind where we were in December 2019 at the end of this year.

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Posted (edited)

 

The hypocrisy of Chaddy.

Loves his "working class" game yet votes for the rent-seeking managerial owning class

Unlike him, some of the best football managers know their roots

 

I'm on the left, of course. More left than middle. I believe in the welfare state. I'm not privately insured. I would never vote for a party because they promised to lower the top tax rate. My political understanding is this: if I am doing well, I want others to do well, too. If there's something I wlll never do in my life is vote for the right

Jurgen Klopp

 

The images of decay and neglect have remained with me and I have never ceased to curse the Tory government for vandalising the NHS. Margaret Thatcher's aggressive efforts to privatise health care in this country were a betrayal of a service that has been one of the proudest achievements of our society

Sir Alex Ferguson

 

The logic in the world at the moment, and football is not outside of this, is that rich get rich at the expense of the poor, and then they demand more privileges

Marcelo Bielsa

 

The socialism I believe in is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards. That's how I see football, that's how I see life.

Bill Shankly

 

Edited by jim mk2
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1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

My stance is no different than JIm or Gav or other people who always vote Labour at elections. So I don't see why certain people have so a problem with me being Conservative voter. 

I don't see these people calling out Jim or Gav for an example for always being Labour Voter so what's the different if you don't mind me asking? 

Appreciate a repost here. 

@chaddyrovers if you take me off ignore you will see a long post listing the differences. 

It's to do with the hypocrisy, double standards, question dodging, fault ignoring, never criticising the government, missing all the naughty stuff they do that people take issue with. Not which way you lean politically. 

Appreciate a repost. 

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

The difference with you is that you fail to see a single fault with your party or it's leader. 

Loyalty is something we sadly lack in buckets loads in this country, its a trait to be admired in my book.

From a political standpoint if the Labour party had unity behind the scenes and across the membership they'd have a better chance of being elected, sadly we have the avocado brigade fighting against the left wing, we have momentum fighting against anyone they feel like and don't get me started on anti-Semites fighting against the Jewish membership. 

No wonder the country votes Tory...

Edited by Gav
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There’s an acid test coming up for Labour, and early suggestions are not good. 
 

It speaks volumes for them that even with all the rampant corruption, sleaze and cronyism they still cannot make ground on the Tories. Reports the Tories are polling higher in Scotland too. 
 

They are disconnected with the majority and seem to have found themselves on the wrong side of an ever deepening cultural divide. Then again, by the sounds of it the Labour activists don’t think the problem is them, instead referring to “stupid red wallers”. Let’s hope Starmer is a bit more pragmatic in failure and looks inward instead of blaming everybody else. 
 

I personally think the rule of politics is changing. Labour do not represent working class people in the thing that matters most: culture. There is a loud minority within Labour - mainly their social media presence - that has put them on the side of “woke”. That’s just a matter of fact. They have let themselves down on two big issues: Brexit and culture, and both are linked and both are important. Starmer is partly to blame for that because let’s not pretend Corbyn was a remainer. He might have actually gotten over the IRA links and scruffiness if he had stood true to his self and ignored the remainers. 
 

You are now finding that Labour appeal to those who worry whether Waitrose has fresh avocado in whilst the Tories now appeal to the tradesman, who doesn’t want to see the British culture he has grown up around degraded anymore by the clearly British-phobic ruling minority of the Labour Party grassroots movement. 

 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Gav said:

Loyalty is something we sadly lack in buckets loads in this country, its a trait to be admired in my book.

There's a world of difference between loyalty and blind faith.

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37 minutes ago, Gav said:

Loyalty is something we sadly lack in buckets loads in this country, its a trait to be admired in my book.

From a political standpoint if the Labour party had unity behind the scenes and across the membership they'd have a better chance of being elected, sadly we have the avocado brigade fighting against the left wing, we have momentum fighting against anyone they feel like and don't get me started on anti-Semites fighting against the Jewish membership. 

No wonder the country votes Tory...

First Gav, there's nothing inherently laudable about loyalty. For example loyalty to the Nazi Party, KKK etc. Where the loyalty is placed determines whether it's a laudable thing or not. In the case of loyalty to a corrupt government I'd say it's not that admirable. 

Mind you it is worth saying that what's being talked about isn't loyalty. Loyalty allows for the recognition of faults, criticism, saying when something is wrong. Heck we are all loyal to Rovers but readily acknowledge their weaknesses and sometimes even oppose elements of the club. What we are seeing here is beyond that into uncritical fanaticism (or I suspect WUM). 

As for no wonder the country votes Tory, I do wonder why. The pandemic has been handled badly. There has been rampant corruption and immorality. They've cocked up on a ton of other issues such as education. I mean if that isn't enough reason to vote against them, what is? Labour aren't in a great way by any mark but the current incumbents are utterly terrible. Hard to see how the country can tolerate it. I'm not talking ideology but rather on moral and competence grounds. You'd have thought at least one of those have mattered. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

There’s an acid test coming up for Labour, and early suggestions are not good. 
 

It speaks volumes for them that even with all the rampant corruption, sleaze and cronyism they still cannot make ground on the Tories. Reports the Tories are polling higher in Scotland too. 
 

They are disconnected with the majority and seem to have found themselves on the wrong side of an ever deepening cultural divide. Then again, by the sounds of it the Labour activists don’t think the problem is them, instead referring to “stupid red wallers”. Let’s hope Starmer is a bit more pragmatic in failure and looks inward instead of blaming everybody else. 
 

I personally think the rule of politics is changing. Labour do not represent working class people in the thing that matters most: culture. There is a loud minority within Labour - mainly their social media presence - that has put them on the side of “woke”. That’s just a matter of fact. They have let themselves down on two big issues: Brexit and culture, and both are linked and both are important. Starmer is partly to blame for that because let’s not pretend Corbyn was a remainer. He might have actually gotten over the IRA links and scruffiness if he had stood true to his self and ignored the remainers. 
 

You are now finding that Labour appeal to those who worry whether Waitrose has fresh avocado in whilst the Tories now appeal to the tradesman, who doesn’t want to see the British culture he has grown up around degraded anymore by the clearly British-phobic ruling minority of the Labour Party grassroots movement. 

 

 

 

When you’re looking for reasons for Labours problems, you’re starting from a position of bias. Maybe we all are, but IMO you are.

Firstly, how big are Labours problems? A survation poll just a few days ago put them just one point behind. Meaningless ? Maybe, maybe not.

Also, don’t forget the Tories don’t hold a majority in this country. They have less than 50% of the votes.  That doesn’t tally with the number of seats they hold, thus doesn’t suggest that there’s a majority for Tory politics either.

When you talk about culture, you aren’t looking at the current Tory culture. Why not? Windrush, ministers being found guilty of breaking the ministerial code and refusing to accept responsibility, illegally proroguing parliament, cronyism and the Accusations of the Tories lining the pockets of their “VIP” friends with millions of pounds worth of PPE contracts, 130,000 covid deaths, being shamed into providing school meals by a footballer, lies day after day....... and on and on......

Not too long ago just one of those things would have had ministers resigning and the polls would have been reflecting that big time.

Could part of the reason at least be because brexit caused a damaging split in the electorate. People engaged with it and pinned their flags to the mast and now they will stick with it whatever it throws up and however it pans out? They seem to be sticking with the party that brought them the brexit they craved, no matter what that party does, however nauseating they become, however irresponsibly they behave? 
 

Labours culture can be criticised, but not the Tories? This current situation doesn’t come simply down to one party being politically acceptable and one not. 
 

*I read Blue Bloods post just after I wrote mine. He’s making the same points.

Edited by den
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Blue blood said:

First Gav, there's nothing inherently laudable about loyalty.

Bit of advice, NEVER use Hilter or Nazi party to make a point, you'll insult more people than you'll convince, I learnt that lesson many years ago.

Due to a lack of loyalty the Labour party has lost its support to the Tories, I understand why, but if we had more loyalty in politics the party would be much stronger, agreed?

 

Edited by Gav
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26 minutes ago, den said:

When you’re looking for reasons for Labours problems, you’re starting from a position of bias. Maybe we all are, but IMO you are.

Firstly, how big are Labours problems? A survation poll just a few days ago put them just one point behind. Meaningless ? Maybe, maybe not.

When you talk about culture, you aren’t looking at the current Tory culture. Why not? Windrush, ministers being found guilty of breaking the ministerial code and refusing to accept responsibility, illegally proroguing parliament, cronyism and the Accusations of the Tories lining the pockets of their “VIP” friends with millions of pounds worth of PPE contracts, 130,000 covid deaths, being shamed into providing school meals by a footballer, lies day after day....... and on and on......

Not too long ago just one of those things would have had ministers resigning and the polls would have been reflecting that big time.

Could part of the reason at least be because brexit caused a damaging split in the electorate. People engaged with it and pinned their flags to the mast and now they will stick with it whatever it throws up and however it pans out? They seem to be sticking with the party that brought them the brexit they craved, no matter what that party does, however nauseating they become, however irresponsibly they behave? 
 

Labours culture can be criticised, but not the Tories? This current situation doesn’t come simply down to one party being politically acceptable and one not. 
 

*I read Blue Bloods post just after I wrote mine. He’s making the same points.

Well if the shoe fits, den.

I don't think I am coming from a position of bias. In my voting history I have voted Lib Dems, Labour and Tory in various elections / forms. I am a swing voter.

I am not talking about the political culture of Conservatives vs Labour I am talking about the cultural divide the population is faced with. Same sex marriage/teachings in school, "non-gender" toilets, the divide between Western British values and that of the immigration population, crime, climate change and your favourite Brexit. There is a pattern of change happening across Europe and people are fighting back by voting for populist right-wing politicians who advocate the status-quo and the rolling back of perceived overly-Liberal freedoms. You can take your pick at a date this goes back to but you are burying your head in European sand if you think it began with the Brexit referendum. 

You talk of bias but once again are looking to blame Brexit and blaming people for "pinning their flags to the mast". You are assuming that everybody cared as much about Brexit as you did but quite frankly towards the end I got the impression the majority of people just wanted it over with. I don't know anyone personally who cares about it anymore. Brexit was the tipping point for the "Red Wall" but as Ewood Ace has displayed in numerous posts their decline happened way before that issue.

And I do think I have every right to criticise Labour's culture, because we have you and everybody else to criticise the Tories. Labours grass-roots culture is pretty toxic to be truthful, den. Whether it is harassing people on social media, or abjectly calling all fascists if you vote Tory, it has a pretty negative 'social media footprint'. It doesn't align with your working class family. 

The Tories engage in behaviour that I think all find morally repugnant but they have the protection of being politicians. The Tories faults in corruption, cronyism or breaking ministerial code is easily dismissed as "it is all politicians". Where the Tories have come good is that they are standing against the 'progressive' politics of the left-wing and that is quite clearly resonating with the general public. In particular in immigration. Like it or not the towns and cities have England have changed dramatically in demographic since the early 90s and many people blame the 'progressive' politics of the left for that. Yes, this has racial undertones to it, but many people do not resent seeing foreign faces but resent seeing an entire post-code dominated by non-British folk. I grew up in it so it doesn't matter either way for me but when you listen to older voters it is one of the single biggest issues for them. Farage noticed this. He blamed the EU. It worked. And worst of all in the UK Labour have been blamed for it.

What is strange is the amount of immigrants that now seem to vote Conservative also, simply because their traditions surrounding the issues listed above (gender, sexuality, justice and climate change) seem to align more with Conservative values than they do progressives. See the protests in Birmingham regarding same-sex teachings as point & case.

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Posted (edited)

Another brilliant post Dreams, probably the best post I've read on this thread in years.

Superb son, take a bow.

Edited by Gav
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Counting in Hartlepool underway, result should be in by the time we wake up in the morning.

Peter Mandelsons old seat, been Labour since the dinosaurs roamed this land.

If Keir and Labour lose this seat against a backdrop of Covid mismanagement, cronyism and sleaze, I fear for the party.

We have a former Labour MP in the family, who thinks Labour will win in Hartlepool, fingers crossed. 

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1 hour ago, Gav said:

Bit of advice, NEVER use Hilter or Nazi party to make a point, you'll insult more people than you'll convince, I learnt that lesson many years ago.

Due to a lack of loyalty the Labour party has lost its support to the Tories, I understand why, but if we had more loyalty in politics the party would be much stronger, agreed?

 

Thanks for the advice Gav although its a tad disappointing you seem to have missed my points in highlighting this. 

I can see the point of your advice although imo if ever there is an occasion for the analogy there seems to be grounds for likening it to this or other political parties where immorality is overlooked and excused. Admittedly the first small steps but I'll be honest; with how dodginess has been ignored here and in the US by a lot of voters I do fear for the way politics is going. 

As for your last statement I'm not sure I agree. If there was less tribalism and more judging on merit and integrity we wouldn't be in the sorry mess we are in. It would force both the main political parties to significant up their game and politics would be a lot stronger. 

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  • Backroom

Loyalty to a party (to the extent displayed by a few on here) is just baffling to me.

My only loyalty in politics is to whichever party is trying to make Britain better, and is showing through actions that it will.

Imo, the Conservative party have failed to do that, and won't get my vote until something drastic changes.

Even Labour are making me struggle now, failing to hold such a bullshit ragtag bunch of cretins to account.

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5 hours ago, Ewood Ace said:

We had the biggest contraction of any major economy. You can use your line from Tory HQ about a services economy but that is simply propaganda

Yet again Ewood we have been over and over this issue before and we disagree on it. 

 

5 hours ago, only2garners said:

If that's the case then surely you should accept that the growth this year is just the country picking up some of the slack caused last year and that whilst it's clearly better than not growing we will still be behind where we were in December 2019 at the end of this year.

Well I will accept that Garners but my point still stands that we need to keep growing through investment in infrastructure, private sector jobs, etc after this year of 7.25% of growth. 

 

5 hours ago, jim mk2 said:

The hypocrisy of Chaddy.

Loves his "working class" game

And your point being Jim? 

Why do you face the facts that working class people dont want Labour party in power or the policies and dont relate to people in power. People don't want a socialise agenda or policies in Government. Surely you know this when you have been campaigning during the last election or these elections? Tell you woke up and smell the coffee Jim. 

@Dreams of 1995 has made 2 excellent posts today and he has made some excellent points. Maybe you read them and accept them. @Gavhas already made some good points on the Labour party over recent days.

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4 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

What is strange is the amount of immigrants that now seem to vote Conservative 

Look at number of Conservative candidates from Asian or ethnic backgrounds standing in the local elections yesterday. They seem to agree with Conservative policies and happy with Johnson as leader of the party. 

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4 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Labours grass-roots culture is pretty toxic to be truthful, den. Whether it is harassing people on social media,

Like they have being to my local MP Sara Britcliffe? I posted a link to Story from last summer of the online abuse she had received from Labour activists and one local Labour councillor standing down cos of it recently. 

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Posted (edited)

Labour admits defeat in Hartlepool:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-57016689

Shadow transport secretary Jim McMahon has conceded defeat in the Hartlepool by-election, telling the BBC that Labour “hasn’t got over the line”.

With the result still to be officially declared, Mr McMahon said: “It’s quite clear when we see the ballots landing on the table that we just haven’t got over the line on the day… that’s clearly very disappointing.”

Results:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/c481drqqzv7t/england-local-elections-2021

A few early results have come in overnight, with Labour holding control of Newcastle andSunderland, while the Conservatives kept control of Redditch.

The Tories have also won overall control ofHarlow Council in Essex, taking seven seats from Labour, and now control the council for Nuneaton and Bedworth, taking 10 seats from Labour.

Doncaster is likely to be the first mayoral race to be announced - potentially this morning - with the rest following later in the day and over Saturday and Sunday.

Edited by Gav
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  • Backroom
Posted (edited)

It's frightening to me that we lurch ever more to the right, with ex-BNP/UKIP types winning votes on a Conservative ticket.

That's why 'loyalty to a party' is bullshit if you don't care who stands or what they do 😞

Edited by Mike E
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53 minutes ago, Mike E said:

It's frightening to me that we lurch ever more to the right, with ex-BNP/UKIP types winning votes on a Conservative ticket.

That's why 'loyalty to a party' is bullshit if you don't care who stands or what they do 😞

Loyalty to a party is a thing of the past Mike, it used to be an obligation in politics, families would fall out, relationships would be broken, people would be beaten up if they broke the 'rules' and voted for the other side, but no longer.

People now vote for what they believe to be right and that can change from one elections to the next. The days of putting a red or blue rosette on a pig that would then win a landslide victory are long gone.

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