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9 hours ago, jim mk2 said:

Eating too many greens has turned old Swampy's brains into mush

Questions for the red wallers.

Who gutted the north in the 1980s by shutting down manufacturing and moving the economy down south to the knowledge and services sector?

Which party has made the north so "grim" as a result of those policies that it has led to the most unequal country in the developed world?

Who has been in power for the past decade and inflicted austerity on ordinary people to pay for the excesses of the rich in financial crisis?

Who created the London/City culture the red wallers say they loathe?

Clues - they're easy one word answers even Chaddy could answer

Clearly, none of this matters because the flag-waving Brexiteers in Hartlepool have won the day

Interesting to see the vote share for Labour in Hartlepool  (29%) almost exactly the same percentage as percentage that voted Remain in Hartlepool (30%)

 

 

 

 

What amuses me is when you hear voters in Hartlepool saying they voted Tory because “ they wanted things to change “. Maybe they haven’t realised who’s been in government for the past 11 years.

Edited by Tyrone Shoelaces
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Thought I would offer an insight into the School Meal Voucher scheme being used to provide vouchers to those parents and children that need it desperately.  The scheme is provided by Edenred a co

This sermon is brought to you by the Daily Mail. Victim-blaming repugnant nonsense. 

You need to completely change your perspective. Do you think they don’t realise how dangerous is?  They don’t have other options. Of course it’s dangerous but the alternative, for most, is l

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, den said:

The Peter Mandelsson who quotes these stats about Labours recent General Election results TS...

LLLLL Blair Blair Blair LLLLLL

While Labour need to look very closely at what went wrong last night, they also need to look at what made them winners.

Mandelson isn’t the greatest example of propriety to use. He could give the Tories a sleeze lesson.

He resigned once over a dodgy loan were he was accused of lying to Parliament.

He resigned a second time after he tried to use his influence improperly to obtain a passport for an Indian business man.

He said “ I’m a fighter not a quitter “ - then quit to take up a plum job with the EU.

The smell of duplicity follows him around like a bad smell.

Just one last thing - Who said - “ I work every single day to bring forward the end of Corbyn’s tenure in office “ ? 

Boris Johnson, Teresa May, Nigel Farrage, Tony Blair ?

Err no, Mandelson.

This was after Corbyn had been democratically elected leader of the party with overwhelming majorities twice.

The man’s a scum bag who was only ever in politics for what he could get out of it.

 

Edited by Tyrone Shoelaces
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Dominic Cummings, love him or loathe him....

Mr Cummings advised Sir Keir to hire David Shor, an American data scientist who worked on former US president Barack Obama's re-election campaign in 2012, and to tell Labour's shadow cabinet "to do as he says".

He claimed Mr Shor "understands politics better" than any Labour MP or Sir Keir's office.

Mr Cummings also used his string of tweets to lash out at Mr Johnson's Downing Street operation.

"We have a No10 & Opposition who see their job as Media Entertainment Service," he posted, adding: "Neither will try to be… a government."

Mr Cummings predicted UK politics "will for a while" resemble the early 2010s when ex-prime minister David Cameron and his chancellor George Osborne faced Labour's Ed Miliband.

"Two groups focused on the media but not as good at it as (Tony) Blair, neither focused on country or *being a serious gvt*," he said.

He added that if Labour had a leader "80% as good" at communications as Mr Blair and "focused on ActualReality, they'd win next [general election] easy".

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My perception of Starmer and why I wouldn't mind him being prime minister is that he comes across as someone in the work place who is very competent, actually reads and understands reports that are sent to him and is pragmatic in what he does. What he lacks, or hasn't demonstrated so far is the ability to play politics, state firmly what his beliefs are and go hell for leather to achieve them. 

Having strong beliefs, to me, isn't a selling point necessarily. I dont want someone who is at either end of a polarised political spectrum I'd quite like someone in the middle who considers both sides of things. People have strong views on immigration when in reality too much is bad and too little is bad so the truth is somewhere in the middle of a polarised debate. I don't want someone who is entrenched at one end of it. Tony mowbray has strong beliefs that his possession based game was to get us top 6 this season. 

 

In short, I think he'd do a good job as PM  but I think he lacks a certain something to actually get there. That certain something is the part of politics that most of us hate. 

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For what it's worth the way I look at it is that winning elections is ultimately about building coalitions.

Tories have developed quite a solid one - basically a combo of the traditional wealthy and middle class Conservative supporters and working class voters, binding them together with a shared nationalist, aspirational message (very much like Thatcher) but also (unlike Thatcher) a careful avoidance/opting out of social politics. Their regional supporters tend to be more socially conservative and their city supporters more socially liberal. They avoid the issue by just not talking about it.

Labour on the other hand have a real coalition issue. The two big blocs of the party - the activist, urban,young, socially liberal, pro-internationalist on one side, and the traditional, regional, more nationalist, older, more socially conservative side - really don't sing from the same hymn sheet on social policy at all and the activists keep the social politics and brexit very high on the agenda which emphasises the division. You go to Hackney and get a Labour voters view, and you go to Stoke to get a view, and it's very very different on social policy (trans rights, immigration, gay marraige, brexit etc) . There is more similarity economically, but with the Tories pumping cash in at the moment it's harder to get traction with that message - even staggeringly offensive stories like the 1% pay rise for nurses. 

Labour are kind of stuck just waiting for Tories to turn the cash off, and then they can rally around a platform to attack the Conservatives and build a coalition. But that's very reactive and disempowered.

I would say the party needs to pivot to a new coalition which allows them to seize the agenda rather than just wait for the government to drop the ball (I know a lot of people on here will say government has dropped the ball a lot, but the opinion polls suggest the public doesn't think they have enough yet). Not sure what that coalition is though, and it will be very hard as it will mean deprioritising either the traditional regional voters or the urban social politics activists as you can't have both. 

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56 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Just one last thing - Who said - “ I work every single day to bring forward the end of Corbyn’s tenure in office “ ? 

Boris Johnson, Teresa May, Nigel Farrage, Tony Blair ?

Err no, Mandelson.

 

How right was Peter Mandelson, pity Corbyn lasted in office as long as he did, it has set Labour back decades clearly.

 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Gav said:

How right was Peter Mandelson, pity Corbyn lasted in office as long as he did, it has set Labour back decades clearly.

The 2017 election under Jeremy Corbyn is the only election since 1997 where Labour increased both it's number of seats and share of the popular vote. I know you'd love to try to lay all the blame for Labour troubles as Corbyn's door but it goes back well beyond him.

Edited by Ewood Ace
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21 minutes ago, joey_big_nose said:

For what it's worth the way I look at it is that winning elections is ultimately about building coalitions.

Tories have developed quite a solid one - basically a combo of the traditional wealthy and middle class Conservative supporters and working class voters, binding them together with a shared nationalist, aspirational message (very much like Thatcher) but also (unlike Thatcher) a careful avoidance/opting out of social politics. Their regional supporters tend to be more socially conservative and their city supporters more socially liberal. They avoid the issue by just not talking about it.

Labour on the other hand have a real coalition issue. The two big blocs of the party - the activist, urban,young, socially liberal, pro-internationalist on one side, and the traditional, regional, more nationalist, older, more socially conservative side - really don't sing from the same hymn sheet on social policy at all and the activists keep the social politics and brexit very high on the agenda which emphasises the division. You go to Hackney and get a Labour voters view, and you go to Stoke to get a view, and it's very very different on social policy (trans rights, immigration, gay marraige, brexit etc) . There is more similarity economically, but with the Tories pumping cash in at the moment it's harder to get traction with that message - even staggeringly offensive stories like the 1% pay rise for nurses. 

 

Put very well Joey. 

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Just now, Ewood Ace said:

The 2017 under Jeremy Corbyn is the only election since 1997 where Labour increased both it's number of seats and share of the popular vote. I know you'd love to try to lay all the blame for Labour troubles as Corbyn's door but it goes back well beyond him.

Irrelevant with respect EA.

Corbyn and his mates have destroyed the Labour party, or you could say have read them the last rights, I'd go with that.

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45 minutes ago, RoverDom said:

Having strong beliefs, to me, isn't a selling point necessarily. I dont want someone who is at either end of a polarised political spectrum I'd quite like someone in the middle who considers both sides of things. People have strong views on immigration when in reality too much is bad and too little is bad so the truth is somewhere in the middle of a polarised debate. I don't want someone who is entrenched at one end of it. Tony mowbray has strong beliefs that his possession based game was to get us top 6 this season. 

The problem is he doesn't seem to have any beliefs. His sole selling point for the last year is that he isn't Jeremy Corbyn. Labour had absolutely no message to put across on the door step, its a rudderless ship at the moment.

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Gav said:

Irrelevant with respect EA.

Corbyn and his mates have destroyed the Labour party, or you could say have read them the last rights, I'd go with that.

Yet he was the only Labour leader since 1997 to buck the trend and increase Labours number of seats and popular vote. I'm surprised as someone who likes to deal in fact that you deem it irrelevant.

Perhaps Labour should look at why in 2017 they found a way to get people to move back to Labour and why then in 2019 and since they have left them again.

In 2017 they had policies that did and still do poll popularly in terms of their positions on the economy and renationalisation of services etc. They also respected the referendum result.

In 2019 the policies on the economy and renationalisation were the same but then the party had got to involved in what I would call stupid fringe social issues that the vast majority of Labour voters quite frankly aren't interested in. Then of course by 2019 they had also foolishly disregarded the referendum result.

In my experience Labour voters on the whole tend to be economically left of centre and more Conservative on social issues and I'd actually say that applies to the country on the whole. That is what the Labour party need to do get back to focusing on the economy, services etc like they did in 2017 and stop dedicating so much time to trivial issues. 

Edited by Ewood Ace
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13 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

Yet he was the only Labour leader since 1997 to buck the trend and increase Labours number of seats and popular vote. 

Perhaps Labour should look at why in 2017 they found a way to get people to move back to Labour and why then in 2019 and since they have left them again.

Under Corbyn Labour changed the agenda, they lurched left in a big way and initially saw a bounce in the polls, which resulted in defeat at the general election and then the worst defeat in living memory.

You seem to be holding on to that as some sort of victory which is baffling to me, the reason most of those voters left was probably due to racism, no position on Brexit and pie in the sky manifestos. 

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2 minutes ago, Gav said:

Under Corbyn Labour changed the agenda, they lurched left in a big way and initially saw a bounce in the polls, which resulted in defeat at the general election and then the worst defeat in living memory.

You seem to be holding on to that as some sort of victory which is baffling to me, the reason most of those voters left was probably due to racism, no position on Brexit and pie in the sky manifestos. 

No position on Brexit? They certainly had a position on Brexit it wasn't a very sensible one but they had one and that is what led to such a dreadful result in 2019.

You say pie in the sky manifesto but the manifesto wasn't much different to the 2017 one the big change of course was the position on the referendum. A lot of Labour big policies such as it's positions on the economy and renationalisation that you describe as Pie in the sky are actually policies that did and still do consistently poll well with voters.

Your letting your hate of Corbyn obscure you from looking at anything objectively and your eagerness to blame him for all the Labour parties problems is clouding you judgement.

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21 hours ago, jim mk2 said:

 

The hypocrisy of Chaddy.

Loves his "working class" game yet votes for the rent-seeking managerial owning class

Unlike him, some of the best football managers know their roots

 

I'm on the left, of course. More left than middle. I believe in the welfare state. I'm not privately insured. I would never vote for a party because they promised to lower the top tax rate. My political understanding is this: if I am doing well, I want others to do well, too. If there's something I wlll never do in my life is vote for the right

Jurgen Klopp

 

The images of decay and neglect have remained with me and I have never ceased to curse the Tory government for vandalising the NHS. Margaret Thatcher's aggressive efforts to privatise health care in this country were a betrayal of a service that has been one of the proudest achievements of our society

Sir Alex Ferguson

 

The logic in the world at the moment, and football is not outside of this, is that rich get rich at the expense of the poor, and then they demand more privileges

Marcelo Bielsa

 

The socialism I believe in is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards. That's how I see football, that's how I see life.

Bill Shankly

 

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29 minutes ago, Gav said:

You seem to be holding on to that as some sort of victory which is baffling to me, the reason most of those voters left was probably due to racism, no position on Brexit and pie in the sky manifestos

I'll give you brexit but if voters aren't turned away by the tory party being corrupt, racist, chumocracy and in 2019 having an equally unaffordable manifesto then I don't see why those issues would be a factor in labour losing votes.

Voting Labour is now associated with being a 'wokey remainer libtard' and I think that's a far bigger issue for the electorate than anti-semitism. I'd wager not many people are that bothered about it but it was a nice stick to beat corbyn with. 

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1 hour ago, Ewood Ace said:

Yet he was the only Labour leader since 1997 to buck the trend and increase Labours number of seats and popular vote. I'm surprised as someone who likes to deal in fact that you deem it irrelevant.

Perhaps Labour should look at why in 2017 they found a way to get people to move back to Labour and why then in 2019 and since they have left them again.

In 2017 they had policies that did and still do poll popularly in terms of their positions on the economy and renationalisation of services etc. They also respected the referendum result.

 

Labour's policies 2017-19 were good. Polls and analysis showed strong support for bringing many sectors back into public ownership (and still do)

Like it or not, the problem was Corbyn. The novelty factor of 2017 wore off by 2019. The public had 2 years to look at him and didn't like what they saw. He wasn't seen as a prime minister. The anti-semitism lie in the right wing media stuck to him.

 

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1 hour ago, RoverDom said:

I'll give you brexit but if voters aren't turned away by the tory party being corrupt, racist, chumocracy and in 2019 having an equally unaffordable manifesto then I don't see why those issues would be a factor in labour losing votes.

Voting Labour is now associated with being a 'wokey remainer libtard' and I think that's a far bigger issue for the electorate than anti-semitism. I'd wager not many people are that bothered about it but it was a nice stick to beat corbyn with. 

Have a read of the last manifesto Dom, it was the stuff of unicorns, a desperate bid to win votes against a backdrop of incompetence.

I've never heard anyone say voting Labour is woke or libtard and once again we have another excuse (A stick to beat Corbyn with) for the very deliberate and orchestrated anti-Semitism that occurred under his tenure.

Don't take my word for it, ask the EHRC, Luciana Berger, Margaret Hodge, Charlotte Nichols, Keir Starmer and many many more.

Here a guardian story that won't have made these pages, the mans an racists and he was surrounded by them:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/04/jeremy-corbyn-says-he-regrets-calling-hamas-and-hezbollah-friends

Edited by Gav
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3 minutes ago, Gav said:

Have a read of the last manifesto Dom, it was the stuff of unicorns, a desperate bid to win votes against a backdrop of incompetence.

What specific policies exactly do you think were the stuff of unicorns?

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3 hours ago, RoverDom said:

Voting Labour is now associated with being a 'wokey remainer libtard' and I think that's a far bigger issue for the electorate than anti-semitism. I'd wager not many people are that bothered about it but it was a nice stick to beat corbyn with. 

I can't quite put into words why I feel people are being turned away from labour, and I'm not sure 'wokey remained libtard' is the right choice of words, but I think your on the right lines for some of it. 

 

Edited by Hasta
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26 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

What specific policies exactly do you think were the stuff of unicorns?

I wouldn't call them the stuff of unicorns either.

I actually think the problem was that while it was all achievable, it was far too much promised too soon.

Far better to under-promise and overdeliver, to the extent that I think the 2017 manifesto COMPLETELY replicated in 2019 would've seen (imo) a Labour-led coalition.

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7 minutes ago, Gav said:

Labour have lost control of SHEFFIELD CITY council.

That is quite simply stunning news.

https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/local-news/live-updates-sheffield-city-councils-20542058

The Mrs is over the moon. A paid up Green. They’ve made some serious inroads lately. 
 

What all of these more left wing parties should do is band together to attempt to change the voting system. There is far more competition on the left than there is on the right when it comes to voting. 

Edited by Dreams of 1995
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5 hours ago, Ewood Ace said:

You asked 'Wonder why Labour party wont listen to Mandelson and Blair but rather listen to McDonnell and Mccluskey'. The Labour party are not listening to John McDonnell I can assure you of that or for that matter Len McCluskey. You just have an obsession with Corbyn and McDonnell where you keep bringing them up even though both have been back bench MP's for over a year. 

Also you must have missed this. Starmer calls in Mandelson to inject a dose of New Labour’s ‘winning mentality’ | News | The Sunday Times (thetimes.co.uk)

Why listen to McDonnell and McClusky when they haven't win general election with their socialist ideas and after they were rejected by the public including by working class voters. Why are so many normal working class people not voting Labour in these local elections? 

I ain't obsession by those 2. I was quoting Mandelson who appear on the BBC news channel. 

I knew that Starmer bought Mandelson into his inner circle of his team since I posted that story at the time. But will Starmer listened to him tho? Why not speak to Blair aswell? 

4 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

What amuses me is when you hear voters in Hartlepool saying the voted Tory because “ they wanted things to change “. Maybe they haven’t realised who’s been in government for the past 11 years.

Well the 1st 5 years was part of a coalitiion government and similar between 2017 to 2019 but now the Conservative Party has majority in Parliament and Johnson has only been Prime Minister for just short of 2 years so people don't see them in power for 11 years plus Johnson is a good campaigner and can connect with the Voters and working class people

3 hours ago, Ewood Ace said:

The 2017 election under Jeremy Corbyn is the only election since 1997 where Labour increased both it's number of seats and share of the popular vote. I know you'd love to try to lay all the blame for Labour troubles as Corbyn's door but it goes back well beyond him.

Then Corbyn delivered Labour worst Election results since 1935 in 2019

1 hour ago, jim mk2 said:

Labour's policies 2017-19 were good. Polls and analysis showed strong support for bringing many sectors back into public ownership (and still do)

Like it or not, the problem was Corbyn. The novelty factor of 2017 wore off by 2019. The public had 2 years to look at him and didn't like what they saw. He wasn't seen as a prime minister. The anti-semitism lie in the right wing media stuck to him.

 

And do the Labour tell you how much all this renationalisation of industries? Lets see how it would poll after people find out how much their taxes would go up to pay for it all. 

Plus Johnson is a much better campaigner than May ever was. 

29 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

What specific policies exactly do you think were the stuff of unicorns?

renationalisation of industry like Water, electricity and Broadband

1 hour ago, RoverDom said:

I'll give you brexit but if voters aren't turned away by the tory party being corrupt, racist, chumocracy and in 2019 having an equally unaffordable manifesto then I don't see why those issues would be a factor in labour losing votes.

Voting Labour is now associated with being a 'wokey remainer libtard' and I think that's a far bigger issue for the electorate than anti-semitism. I'd wager not many people are that bothered about it but it was a nice stick to beat corbyn with. 

The vast majority of PPE contracts provided the correct quality PPE and it was only small percent of stock provided by some companies wasn't. 

On racist point, so why do the Conservative party have so many Asian and ethic background running for councillor seats in these local elections? Must be pleased with Johnson as leader of the party. 

Yes more and more people want a Conservative policies and the party speaks on their issues. Plus Voters like Johnson and he is someone thats can connect with people and they like his personality. 

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16 minutes ago, Gav said:

Labour have lost control of SHEFFIELD CITY council.

That is quite simply stunning news.

https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/local-news/live-updates-sheffield-city-councils-20542058

It's not that radical a shift Gav. The council has gone to no overall control for the 4th time since 1999 and there have been 5 years of Lib Dem control in that period too.

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