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11 hours ago, Ewood Ace said:

That's not what he said 2 months earlier though, 

He was given evidence to the Health and social care select committee in May. 

Are you suggesting he lied to the select committee meeting?

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

How could you test them at the time when we never had the tests available and more importantly question is how did the elderly people get infected in the first place and where? 

At the start of the pandemic the government were obsessed with clearing beds across NHS and on the face of it that seemed like a good move. But what they didn't tell anyone was that the elderly were being pushed back into the care sector, discharged whilst ill, no testing and that was a perfect storm which resulted in 20/30k deaths in that sector. The reason so many were in hospital is because social care is broken and the Tories have done nothing about it, another scandal. 

The government also failed to realise that care workers often moved between care homes throughout the working week, again creating that prefect storm, thousands more deaths as a result.

Its insulting to anyone's intelligence that Hancock threw a protective ring around care homes, its a complete and utter fabrication and for that lie alone he should be sacked.

It seems to me that the elderly and most vulnerable in society were seen as expendable, I can think of no other reason for the gross Incompetnance and Johnsons words backup this claim up.

Someone close to me spent most of February/March 2020 pleading with the governemnt and senior civil service to not allow this to happen, she knew what was about to happen, the government didn't listen and we now know the results.

Its a scandal, probably the biggest one of the lot and the buck stops with Hancock.

 

Edited by Gav
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2 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

He was given evidence to the Health and social care select committee in May. 

Are you suggesting he lied to the select committee meeting?

I'm suggesting that what he said in May was very different to what he said in March, when he said and I quote 'Our aim is to try and reduce the peak, broaden the peak, not suppress it completely. Also, because the vast majority of people get a mild illness, to build up some kind of herd immunity.'

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Just an excerpt from the latest “ Private Eye “ regarding the “ Low Pay Commission “.

” The Low Pay Commission’s annual report on employers breaking minimum pay laws has warned that higher unemployment post Covid could well create conditions for underpayment and other forms of exploitation - but it’s warnings and recommendations have gone almost entirely unreported.

Filling the vacant post of Director of Labour Market Enforcement should be a priority, the commission says, in order to coordinate minimum-wage enforcement. Boris Johnson’s government signalled it’s attitude to enforcing the minimum wage when it allowed this post to go unfilled at the end of January, even though outgoing Director Mathew Taylor was willing to stay on without pay until a replacement was found “.

So much for the new friends of the working class.

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14 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

All depends when and where they were infected surely? Since we now know that you can now be infected up to 14 days without showing any symptoms or be asymptomatic even. 

I would just like to flag this up as another horrifically reality altering post. The point being made is that we can't tell where the poor old people got the virus from - in other words it wasn't the Tory's fault for sending them to care homes. 

Firstly let's assume this is correct - they could have picked it up anywhere. I dunno maybe down at the nightclubs or when doing white water rafting. In one sense this is immaterial. If their sequence was activity - hospital - care home, then the onus is still on the government to test them before they are sent into care homes. Where it was picked up in some ways doesn't matter, if you are protecting the care homes then you test them before going in!

Let me give an illustration. If I am a bouncer for a club and I let people in with drugs - it doesn't matter if they got them in the pub, the bus station or off some random chap in the street. The issue is I let them into the club with drugs. Where they got them in many ways is immaterial to the impact it has on the club. It's my mistake in allowing it to happen regardless of where it is from. Where they got it doesn't absolve not testing and sending into care homes. 

However if we examine the idea that they picked it up elsewhere, whilst possible it is far from probable. For starters some of those were returning to care homes from hospitals, in other words they won't have been out and about to pick it up. And a fair number also would have stayed in hospital for the more than the duration that they could be infected too. So yeah it might be possible that they picked it up elsewhere but it is unlikely. Especially (and I am speaking in generalities here) since some old people will have less contact with others than say a younger person.

Of course the biggest factor in the likelihood of where they got it, is where the virus is known to be. I think I'd place hospital as the most likely place to get it for, well, obvious reasons - that's where they were treating people with Covid. 

So this is a desperate attempt to deflect justified criticism from the government. A ton of mental gymnastics are needed to do so. firstly moving the goalposts (where they got it as oppose to lack of testing being sent into care homes) before then suggesting the least likely places that they got it as the most plausible option. Again we have an utterly implausible defence of the government with no baring on logic or credibility. 

Appreciate a repost as it's a little naughty to move the goal posts and take the least likely option as an excuse. 

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10 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Just an excerpt from the latest “ Private Eye “ regarding the “ Low Pay Commission “.

” The Low Pay Commission’s annual report on employers breaking minimum pay laws has warned that higher unemployment post Covid could well create conditions for underpayment and other forms of exploitation - but it’s warnings and recommendations have gone almost entirely unreported.

Filling the vacant post of Director of Labour Market Enforcement should be a priority, the commission says, in order to coordinate minimum-wage enforcement. Boris Johnson’s government signalled it’s attitude to enforcing the minimum wage when it allowed this post to go unfilled at the end of January, even though outgoing Director Mathew Taylor was willing to stay on without pay until a replacement was found “.

So much for the new friends of the working class.

 And the post is still unfilled....

A Tory government that cracks down on labour market abuse is a contradiction in terms. The new working class Tory voter who has obviously forgotten what his/her forefathers faced at the hands of the "natural party of government" will find out soon enough.  

As always, it's interesting to look at what's going on beneath the surface and this story shows the government's real agenda. 

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Just now, Blue blood said:

I would just like to flag this up as another horrifically reality altering post. The point being made is that we can't tell where the poor old people got the virus from - in other words it wasn't the Tory's fault for sending them to care homes. 

Firstly let's assume this is correct - they could have picked it up anywhere. I dunno maybe down at the nightclubs or when doing white water rafting. In one sense this is immaterial. If their sequence was activity - hospital - care home, then the onus is still on the government to test them before they are sent into care homes. Where it was picked up in some ways doesn't matter, if you are protecting the care homes then you test them before going in!

Let me give an illustration. If I am a bouncer for a club and I let people in with drugs - it doesn't matter if they got them in the pub, the bus station or off some random chap in the street. The issue is I let them into the club with drugs. Where they got them in many ways is immaterial to the impact it has on the club. It's my mistake in allowing it to happen regardless of where it is from. Where they got it doesn't absolve not testing and sending into care homes. 

However if we examine the idea that they picked it up elsewhere, whilst possible it is far from probable. For starters some of those were returning to care homes from hospitals, in other words they won't have been out and about to pick it up. And a fair number also would have stayed in hospital for the more than the duration that they could be infected too. So yeah it might be possible that they picked it up elsewhere but it is unlikely. Especially (and I am speaking in generalities here) since some old people will have less contact with others than say a younger person.

Of course the biggest factor in the likelihood of where they got it, is where the virus is known to be. I think I'd place hospital as the most likely place to get it for, well, obvious reasons - that's where they were treating people with Covid. 

So this is a desperate attempt to deflect justified criticism from the government. A ton of mental gymnastics are needed to do so. firstly moving the goalposts (where they got it as oppose to lack of testing being sent into care homes) before then suggesting the least likely places that they got it as the most plausible option. Again we have an utterly implausible defence of the government with no baring on logic or credibility. 

Appreciate a repost as it's a little naughty to move the goal posts and take the least likely option as an excuse. 

Repost done

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1 hour ago, Gav said:

and the buck stops with Hancock.

Good post but the buck stops with Johnson. Hancock's failings are obvious and multiple but Johnson has declared he has full confidence in him.

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44 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

 And the post is still unfilled....

A Tory government that cracks down on labour market abuse is a contradiction in terms. The new working class Tory voter who has obviously forgotten what his/her forefathers faced at the hands of the "natural party of government" will find out soon enough.  

As always, it's interesting to look at what's going on beneath the surface and this story shows the government's real agenda. 

As always - “ Don’t just listen to what they say they’re going to do, look at what they actually do. “ Or in this case, don’t do.

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Posted (edited)

The Good Law project has shown evidence today that high ranking ministers intervened in the awarding of overpriced contracts for PPE provision, despite the governments insistence that ministers had no role in PPE procurement decisions.

a short summary here, there’s much more involving Patel/Hancock if you click on the link

   both Boris Johnson’s controversial adviser Munira Mirza and the Home Secretary Priti Patel intervened to help middlemen win two enormous contracts for PDL;

      the first middleman was Samir Jassal. He is a Conservative councillor who has been photographed with Boris Johnson, Theresa May, David Cameron, and has personal links to Priti Patel, and a string of other high profile Conservative figures;

      the second middleman was Surbjit Shergill. A company he owned went from £200 in value to almost £10m in value in the year of the pandemic. Documents leaked to Good Law Project suggest he billed PDL over £16m for his services;

      the £28.8m contract was won shortly after a direct intervention by Priti Patel – and was above the average market price;

      the £102.6m contract (for “Meixin 2016v” FFP3 face masks) was concluded on 7 July – and only after Cabinet Office officials overruled objections that it was overpriced by £50m;

    several days earlier, on 2 July, another bidder who had passed technical assurance – and had been sent a draft contract by DHSC to supply the same model “Meixin 2016v” at the exact same time – was told we had already bought enough FFP3 face masks;

      that other bidder is one of several Good Law Project is aware of who, when close to winning a lucrative PPE contract, was parked and lost out to politically connected/VIP bidders. There is a strong suspicion Government insiders were passing details of contracts to their preferred bidders.

 

Edited by den
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Unless their actions were unlawful (which because of the lax rules they probably aren't), and they can be prosecuted in a court of law, they will get away with it. Again. 

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Posted (edited)
On 28/05/2021 at 09:48, Gav said:

At the start of the pandemic the government were obsessed with clearing beds across NHS and on the face of it that seemed like a good move. But what they didn't tell anyone was that the elderly were being pushed back into the care sector, discharged whilst ill, no testing and that was a perfect storm which resulted in 20/30k deaths in that sector. The reason so many were in hospital is because social care is broken and the Tories have done nothing about it, another scandal. 

The government also failed to realise that care workers often moved between care homes throughout the working week, again creating that prefect storm, thousands more deaths as a result.

Its insulting to anyone's intelligence that Hancock threw a protective ring around care homes, its a complete and utter fabrication and for that lie alone he should be sacked.

It seems to me that the elderly and most vulnerable in society were seen as expendable, I can think of no other reason for the gross Incompetnance and Johnsons words backup this claim up.

Someone close to me spent most of February/March 2020 pleading with the governemnt and senior civil service to not allow this to happen, she knew what was about to happen, the government didn't listen and we now know the results.

Its a scandal, probably the biggest one of the lot and the buck stops with Hancock.

 

Gav, I am very sorry I haven't replied back sooner but was busy with family and day out. 

I think is something that is misunderstood by alot people that alot of care workers whether working in a care home or caring for the elderly at their homes is that they work different places daily and alot work on the agency so can be working in 3 or 4 different care homes weekly for example. I know this cos I have family members and family friends who work in NHS and Social care sector and plenty of experience in this sector. Plus one of former girlfriend parents owned a couple of Elderly residents homes at the time. So have an insight in how they operated and how they recruit staff at short notice by using agency staff 

I disagreed that our elderly and most vulnerable in society were seen as expendable. We didn't have the structures in place to deal with this sort of virus and we were prepared for Flu pandemic not a Coronavirus pandemic. The lack of ready to go test centres around the country to be set up within Days and the personal to staff them is a massive flawed in our pre planning for these sort of pandemic. I never thought back 16 months ago thats this would have affected our country and people so badly in a number of different factors. 

I would agree that we need need to fix Social Care for the long term. Gav, Do you have any suggestions or thoughts how we can do this for the long term? 

Edited by chaddyrovers
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The public don't trust Dominic Cummings: Vaccines rollout sees Boris Johnson ride high in Mail poll.... but voters back call to axe Matt Hancock 

People think Boris Johnson's former aide Dominic Cummings was motivated by revenge on his Tory foes 

Polls show the public are prepared to forgive the Prime Minister for errors made during the pandemic

https://mol.im/a/9632763

Screenshot_20210529-195703_Daily Mail Online.jpg

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Posted (edited)

Chaddy thinks govt did nothing wrong with care homes. 
 

Almost 40,000 mainly elderly people in care homes died unnecesssrily. Even though the amount of tests needed was only a fraction of what was being done.  Even though Hancock told the PM, Cummings and cab. Sec. that he wouldn’t send untested people into care homes. Even though other countries stopped their carers  from moving between care homes.

nothing wrong.

Edited by den
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  • Moderation Lead
1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

The public don't trust Dominic Cummings: Vaccines rollout sees Boris Johnson ride high in Mail poll.... but voters back call to axe Matt Hancock 

People think Boris Johnson's former aide Dominic Cummings was motivated by revenge on his Tory foes 

Polls show the public are prepared to forgive the Prime Minister for errors made during the pandemic

https://mol.im/a/9632763

Screenshot_20210529-195703_Daily Mail Online.jpg

‘Errors’. Bit of an understatement. 

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1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

Gav, I am very sorry I haven't replied back sooner but was busy with family and day out. 

I think is something that is misunderstood by alot people that alot of care workers whether working in a care home or caring for the elderly at their homes is that they work different places daily and alot work on the agency so can be working in 3 or 4 different care homes weekly for example. 

I disagreed that our elderly and most vulnerable in society were seen as expendable. We didn't have the structures in place to deal with this sort of virus and we were prepared for Flu pandemic not a Coronavirus pandemic. The lack of ready to go test centres around the country to be set up within Days and the personal to staff them is a massive flawed in our pre planning for these sort of pandemic. I never thought back 16 months ago thats this would have affected our country and people so badly in a number of different factors. 

I would agree that we need need to fix Social Care for the long term. Gav, Do you have any suggestions or thoughts how we can do this for the long term? 

This is a brilliant new defence of the Tory's - it wasn't their fault because they weren't ready. 

Apparently its the care home workers who transmitted it, not those going from hospitals to care homes. Now whilst I'm sure this is a factor it's another disingenuous excuse for the government. 

Firstly there is the odds - what's the likelihood of it coming from a hospital, with Covid patients rather than another care home. Certainly early on the odds surely have to be in the favour (if that's the correct word) of the hospital. For starters if it transfers from care home to care home, it has to get into the care home system somehow. 

Secondly - and I freely admit I haven't done the maths - whilst they can be in several care homes a week, possibly even 3 or 4 - how often or how likely was this the case? I only really know about teaching and nursing supply and whilst that can and does happen, quite often as well it's only one or two per week. Often it's a run of shifts somewhere. So I'm not saying it isn't a factor, in fact I think it is, rather that it's been exaggerated and focussed on to try absolving the government of blame. And that's before I get into windows of infection and the like which also limits how much infection would be caused by carers. 

Of course the third issue is that carers weren't given PPE and were shamefully neglected by the government. Sure I get there were shortages but that's on the government's preparation and decisions. 

Once again we see a reality changing post in order to defend the government. The idea that sending people from hospitals to care homes wasn't an issue is lies and propaganda in the extreme. 

Appreciate a repost. 

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2 hours ago, Blue blood said:

This is a brilliant new defence of the Tory's - it wasn't their fault because they weren't ready. 

Apparently its the care home workers who transmitted it, not those going from hospitals to care homes. Now whilst I'm sure this is a factor it's another disingenuous excuse for the government. 

Firstly there is the odds - what's the likelihood of it coming from a hospital, with Covid patients rather than another care home. Certainly early on the odds surely have to be in the favour (if that's the correct word) of the hospital. For starters if it transfers from care home to care home, it has to get into the care home system somehow. 

Secondly - and I freely admit I haven't done the maths - whilst they can be in several care homes a week, possibly even 3 or 4 - how often or how likely was this the case? I only really know about teaching and nursing supply and whilst that can and does happen, quite often as well it's only one or two per week. Often it's a run of shifts somewhere. So I'm not saying it isn't a factor, in fact I think it is, rather that it's been exaggerated and focussed on to try absolving the government of blame. And that's before I get into windows of infection and the like which also limits how much infection would be caused by carers. 

Of course the third issue is that carers weren't given PPE and were shamefully neglected by the government. Sure I get there were shortages but that's on the government's preparation and decisions. 

Once again we see a reality changing post in order to defend the government. The idea that sending people from hospitals to care homes wasn't an issue is lies and propaganda in the extreme. 

Appreciate a repost. 

Done

 

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12 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

The public don't trust Dominic Cummings: Vaccines rollout sees Boris Johnson ride high in Mail poll.... but voters back call to axe Matt Hancock 

People think Boris Johnson's former aide Dominic Cummings was motivated by revenge on his Tory foes 

Polls show the public are prepared to forgive the Prime Minister for errors made during the pandemic

https://mol.im/a/9632763

Screenshot_20210529-195703_Daily Mail Online.jpg

Realised what was bothering me about this post. 

1) I'm pretty certain you've never admitted the government have made any "errors". In fact I recall you blaming teachers for not being ready for third lockdown and we have two posts on here changing the reality to shift the blame from the government sending people from hospitals to care homes. 

2) How come what the public thinks of Cummings matters now. You were adamant it didn't matter when the public thought he broke lockdown rules. Then only the government's interpretation mattered. Why the change in the validity of public opinion? 

3) How come you can identify an agenda here in what Cummings said, but when pressed on why the government defended him, you were adamant there were no agendas or ulterior motives? How could agendas could be identified now but not then? 

4) I'm confused as to the Mail's validity as a source. Depending on whether it has been a pro or anti Tory story it's validity has changed. Please help me out on this one. 

Maybe it's me but it seems to all be all little bit... confusing. 

Appreciate a repost. Not that such questions will ever get answered but it's good to flag the double standards. 

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  • Moderation Lead
2 hours ago, Sparks Rover said:

Posts being deleted eh?  Any reason mods...again.

Chaddy must be related to the mods.  He can spout tripe but if you call him out....

If you call anyone a piece of work, particularly several times a week, then your post will be hidden. It’s also been recommended time and again that you ignore that poster as they clearly annoy you so much.

Post without the insults and you’re all good. 

To answer another poster’s question, we only hide posts that break rules.

(Baiting, insults, etc- which we could easily punish with a ban, but we rarely do, we are miles more lenient than people realise). 

We can’t win when it comes to this particular poster, as I’ve said time and again. We are either ‘enabling the bullying’ or ‘protecting him too much’.

Also- for the rest of the class, and for the last time, can we please query hidden posts by PMing a mod, or in ask admin?

Any posts contravening this will be hidden.

You can also use the report button if something has bothered you, as this gets our attention more quickly, just like sending us a PM does. (We get email alerts, so it saves us logging onto the forum and trawling through all the threads to see matters detailed by petty squabbling that all could have been avoided by following processes that we want posters to use).


It feels like I’ve mentioned all the above numerous times, but, it obviously bears repeating.

 

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16 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

The public don't trust Dominic Cummings: Vaccines rollout sees Boris Johnson ride high in Mail poll.... but voters back call to axe Matt Hancock 

People think Boris Johnson's former aide Dominic Cummings was motivated by revenge on his Tory foes 

Polls show the public are prepared to forgive the Prime Minister for errors made during the pandemic

https://mol.im/a/9632763

Screenshot_20210529-195703_Daily Mail Online.jpg

You've omitted the fact that they don't trust Johnson either.

image.thumb.png.26dd7ee7d638e87d17af398a7de5e393.png

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