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8 hours ago, arbitro said:

Instead of dancing around their handbags the powers that be should get Cummings and Hancock in a TV studio and do a live broadcast with no holds barred questioning. Then let the public make their own minds up as to which of the rats in telling lies.

Better still, get them in the ring with the gloves on. I’d pay to watch that.

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Thought I would offer an insight into the School Meal Voucher scheme being used to provide vouchers to those parents and children that need it desperately.  The scheme is provided by Edenred a co

This sermon is brought to you by the Daily Mail. Victim-blaming repugnant nonsense. 

You need to completely change your perspective. Do you think they don’t realise how dangerous is?  They don’t have other options. Of course it’s dangerous but the alternative, for most, is l

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7 hours ago, RoverDom said:

I'm not sure this was necessarily wrong. I think there is a finite time people will tolerate lockdown. They may have underestimated it but I don't think it's completely wrong. 

I can only speak anecdotally but I've seen people gradually give up with the restrictions to some degree. My parents  "bubble" could have filled ewood back in January. Even one of my colleagues who locked themselves away for the whole time, even when restrictions were eased last summer, is now done with lockdowns. Me n my best mate have been in each others houses since early March. After the first three weeks or so there's been media articles and posts on here about "idiots not obeying the rules".

I've very surprised how many people followed the lockdown rules for so long now and people want to get to normality again whether that's meeting friends or going to the pub or a restaurant. Since measures has been eased I've have been to friends homes for a barbecue or just drinks outside enjoying this good British summer weather. 

 

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More from the latest “ Eye”.

” No prizes for guessing who dominates the latest list of donors to the Tory party. It’s the builders and bankers - shock horror !
Top of the list was £500,000 from new peer and on line trading mogul Lord Peter Cruddy. Just below him came £250,000 from Howard Shore owner of Guernsey asset manager Shore Capital. A similar amount came from the investment company owned by banker Sir Henry Angest, and another £100,000 came from city broker Michael Spencer’s IPGL Ltd.

Other financiers taking up the Tory cause included Mark Slater, through his Northglen Investments company, with £50,000. Proffering a similar amount was Robert Doumar, behind the shadow banking outfit Park Square Capital that runs funds in Luxembourg and Guersey.

The property money was led by a £150,000 cheque from John Bloor’s  Bloor Holdings, owner of Bloor Homes and a major beneficiary of help-to-buy ( extended yet again last December ) and stamp duty holidays. Barely less generous, with £100,000, was the man-about-town with a renewed interest in the Tories under Boris Johnson, Nick Candy. This doubles his donations since Johnson became leader, consistent with the rumours last year that he had his eye on the Party Treasurer’s ( ie fundraiser ) job.

Other major property donors included Bridgemere with £62,500 and Countywide, also with £62,500.

 

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11 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

More from the latest “ Eye”.

”The property money was led by a £150,000 cheque from John Bloor’s  Bloor Holdings, owner of Bloor Homes and a major beneficiary of help-to-buy ( extended yet again last December ) and stamp duty holidays. Barely less generous, with £100,000, was the man-about-town with a renewed interest in the Tories under Boris Johnson, Nick Candy. This doubles his donations since Johnson became leader, consistent with the rumours last year that he had his eye on the Party Treasurer’s ( ie fundraiser ) job.

Other major property donors included Bridgemere with £62,500 and Countywide, also with £62,500.

 

They're all in this together.

https://bylinetimes.com/2020/09/16/company-conservative-donations-government-ppe-procurement-deal/?fbclid=IwAR2WrdsVRy1yiuAcU1e5q9Va66i0XqKLtzezQ0Cvi-PFARcAnZCFhyzE8Ps

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I saw an interesting discussion begin in the coronavirus thread and would like to see it continued. Hopefully this is now posted on the most relevant place:

 

Hey @Dreams of 1995 didn't @Ewood Ace say this was all made up? 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57386625.amp

 

Very trustworthy government overe there alright. Every other country is just being so mean 
 

@Ewood Ace what do you think of the above report?

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1 hour ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

More from the latest “ Eye”.

” No prizes for guessing who dominates the latest list of donors to the Tory party. It’s the builders and bankers - shock horror !
Top of the list was £500,000 from new peer and on line trading mogul Lord Peter Cruddy. Just below him came £250,000 from Howard Shore owner of Guernsey asset manager Shore Capital. A similar amount came from the investment company owned by banker Sir Henry Angest, and another £100,000 came from city broker Michael Spencer’s IPGL Ltd.

Other financiers taking up the Tory cause included Mark Slater, through his Northglen Investments company, with £50,000. Proffering a similar amount was Robert Doumar, behind the shadow banking outfit Park Square Capital that runs funds in Luxembourg and Guersey.

The property money was led by a £150,000 cheque from John Bloor’s  Bloor Holdings, owner of Bloor Homes and a major beneficiary of help-to-buy ( extended yet again last December ) and stamp duty holidays. Barely less generous, with £100,000, was the man-about-town with a renewed interest in the Tories under Boris Johnson, Nick Candy. This doubles his donations since Johnson became leader, consistent with the rumours last year that he had his eye on the Party Treasurer’s ( ie fundraiser ) job.

Other major property donors included Bridgemere with £62,500 and Countywide, also with £62,500.

 

and at PMQ’s Johnson had the nerve to refer Starmer to his “paymasters” (the unions).

Unions represent workers in this country, while big business and the rich are paymasters to the Tory party.

and yet you have voters and some posters on here arguing that the Tories are the party of the workers. It’s astonishing really how gullible a large percentage of the population are. ….. or maybe it’s not.

 

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3 minutes ago, The Hypnotic said:

I saw an interesting discussion begin in the coronavirus thread and would like to see it continued. Hopefully this is now posted on the most relevant place:

 

 

Hey @Dreams of 1995 didn't @Ewood Ace say this was all made up? 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57386625.amp

 

Very trustworthy government overe there alright. Every other country is just being so mean 
 

@Ewood Ace what do you think of the above report?

Personally I think it is about time organisations like Amnesty put pressure on nations to sanction China. It is clearly documented, with first hand accounts, the atrocities the chinese government are willing to perform in their quest for cultural dominance and power. The Han-Chinese population thrive whilst the minorities suffer. It is a rogue state that I believe Western governments are enabling by exploiting their cheap Labour and poor workers rights which culminate in cheap exports. 

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1 hour ago, den said:

and at PMQ’s Johnson had the nerve to refer Starmer to his “paymasters” (the unions).

Unions represent workers in this country, while big business and the rich are paymasters to the Tory party.

and yet you have voters and some posters on here arguing that the Tories are the party of the workers. It’s astonishing really how gullible a large percentage of the population are. ….. or maybe it’s not.

 

That’s the thing Den. You and I know big business is pouring really serious money into the Tory party and has been doing for a long, long while. Pardon my cynicism but there’s a reason for that. These people aren’t known for their generosity. You don’t normally get rich by giving money away. They’ll be wanting something in return. What that something is won’t be to the benefit of you or I.
 

None of the so called popular media outlets comment on this unless it’s a particularly blatant case. The ordinary man in the street is completely un-aware of this situation.

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1 hour ago, The Hypnotic said:

I saw an interesting discussion begin in the coronavirus thread and would like to see it continued. Hopefully this is now posted on the most relevant place:

 

 

Hey @Dreams of 1995 didn't @Ewood Ace say this was all made up? 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57386625.amp

 

Very trustworthy government overe there alright. Every other country is just being so mean 
 

@Ewood Ace what do you think of the above report?

Unlike @Dreams of 1995 I don't just read things and take it as gospel. I found out the other night that he is rather susceptible to misinformation when he claimed that Boca fans killed a grave worker.

Firstly Amnesty talk about 'under the guise of a campaign against terrorism'. The terrorism's very real and has resulted in thousands upon thousands of deaths in a conflict that has been going on since the 1930's. Amnesty call it a 'purported terrorist' threat, tell the families who have lost loved ones to terrorism in the region that it is only a 'purported terrorist' threat. Now Amnesty is either completely ignorant to the history of terrorism in the region or it doesn't place any value on certain lives. 

What they also omitted to put in the report is that since the opening of the Education centres there have thankfully been no terrorist attacks in the region whereas in the decade before them the situation was getting very bad and over 1000 people lost their lives. Now though Xinjiang is beginning to thrive as I have stated previously on this forum over the last decade the Uyghur population in Xinjiang has risen by over 25%, that is more than the population in general and more than any other minority. Over the last few years the Chinese government has invested over $100 Billion on infrastructure projects in Xinjiang and the GDP of Xinjiang from 2014-2019 grew by 7.2% annually even last year it grew by 3.4% and for the first quarter of this year it grew by a staggering 12.1%. Absolute poverty in Xinjiang has been eradicated and the Per capita disposable income in Xinjiang rises every year and in the last 6 years has risen by nearly 10,000 yuan. We also know that since the formation of the People's Republic the average life expectancy in Xinjiang has risen from just 30 years of age up to 74.4

The so called testimonies are all completely unnamed so therefore unverifiable. Although it was interesting to note that some of them were interviewed in Kazakhstan & Kyrgyzstan which are two countries where Turkistan Islamic Party have roots. And of course Amnesty haven't actually been on the ground in Xinjiang to actually see what has been happening in fact they didn't even talk to anyone who lives there, like say these religious leaders from the region ( https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20210514/p2g/00m/0in/073000c). 

Also have you noticed Muslim countries aren't the ones pushing this propaganda because they know it is just that. Just look at what the Pakistani Ambassador to China said on a recent visit to Xinjiang ( https://nation.com.pk/11-Apr-2021/pakistan-supports-china-s-position-on-xinjiang-envoy) or the Palestine & Saudi Ambassadors to China on a recent visit to Xinjiang ( “Nice people, great government”: Xinjiang in the eyes of Saudi Arabian and Palestinian ambassadors - People's Daily Online) or the UAE Ambassador ( https://news.cgtn.com/news/2021-02-06/CGTN-exclusive-interview-with-UAE-Ambassador-to-China-Part-2-XEFcGEVaJW/index.html ).  

The propaganda always seems to come from western nations (and their lackies) who have unlike China been responsible for the deaths of millions of Muslims across the world and are still to this day destroying their countries. Also let's not forget that Amnesty have a history of doing the work of the US government most famously or rather infamously with the Nayirah testimony.

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4 hours ago, Ewood Ace said:

Unlike @Dreams of 1995 I don't just read things and take it as gospel. I found out the other night that he is rather susceptible to misinformation when he claimed that Boca fans killed a grave worker.

Firstly Amnesty talk about 'under the guise of a campaign against terrorism'. The terrorism's very real and has resulted in thousands upon thousands of deaths in a conflict that has been going on since the 1930's. Amnesty call it a 'purported terrorist' threat, tell the families who have lost loved ones to terrorism in the region that it is only a 'purported terrorist' threat. Now Amnesty is either completely ignorant to the history of terrorism in the region or it doesn't place any value on certain lives. 

What they also omitted to put in the report is that since the opening of the Education centres there have thankfully been no terrorist attacks in the region whereas in the decade before them the situation was getting very bad and over 1000 people lost their lives. Now though Xinjiang is beginning to thrive as I have stated previously on this forum over the last decade the Uyghur population in Xinjiang has risen by over 25%, that is more than the population in general and more than any other minority. Over the last few years the Chinese government has invested over $100 Billion on infrastructure projects in Xinjiang and the GDP of Xinjiang from 2014-2019 grew by 7.2% annually even last year it grew by 3.4% and for the first quarter of this year it grew by a staggering 12.1%. Absolute poverty in Xinjiang has been eradicated and the Per capita disposable income in Xinjiang rises every year and in the last 6 years has risen by nearly 10,000 yuan. We also know that since the formation of the People's Republic the average life expectancy in Xinjiang has risen from just 30 years of age up to 74.4

The so called testimonies are all completely unnamed so therefore unverifiable. Although it was interesting to note that some of them were interviewed in Kazakhstan & Kyrgyzstan which are two countries where Turkistan Islamic Party have roots. And of course Amnesty haven't actually been on the ground in Xinjiang to actually see what has been happening in fact they didn't even talk to anyone who lives there, like say these religious leaders from the region ( https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20210514/p2g/00m/0in/073000c). 

Also have you noticed Muslim countries aren't the ones pushing this propaganda because they know it is just that. Just look at what the Pakistani Ambassador to China said on a recent visit to Xinjiang ( https://nation.com.pk/11-Apr-2021/pakistan-supports-china-s-position-on-xinjiang-envoy) or the Palestine & Saudi Ambassadors to China on a recent visit to Xinjiang ( “Nice people, great government”: Xinjiang in the eyes of Saudi Arabian and Palestinian ambassadors - People's Daily Online) or the UAE Ambassador ( https://news.cgtn.com/news/2021-02-06/CGTN-exclusive-interview-with-UAE-Ambassador-to-China-Part-2-XEFcGEVaJW/index.html ).  

The propaganda always seems to come from western nations (and their lackies) who have unlike China been responsible for the deaths of millions of Muslims across the world and are still to this day destroying their countries. Also let's not forget that Amnesty have a history of doing the work of the US government most famously or rather infamously with the Nayirah testimony.

Thanks for the detailed response. 


I’d never heard of the Nayirah testimony so that was also an interesting read for me. While I accept that the Nayirah testimony was a shocking error of judgement, I wonder is it logical to believe that an international charity like Amnesty would falsify reports at the behest of western democratic countries purely to denigrate China in the eyes of the world?
 

I’d also suggest that ambassadors from countries like the UAE and Pakistan might have one eye on securing trade deals, oil sales or arms purchases. Not long ago Ghadaffi was being feted in the UK, Saddam and Idi Amin were at one time allies to the British. To the ruling classes, human rights sometimes don’t have the same importance as a strategic alliance. 
 

I don’t doubt that there have been terrorist atrocities committed in the region but I don’t agree with the measures taken (as outlined in the amnesty report) to eradicate the threat. Guantanamo bay might have stopped terrorist attacks in the US in the short term but it was undoubtedly a place where human rights were not respected and where atrocities were committed. The British did terrible things in Kenya, the Belgians in the Congo, all in the name of security and stability. But that does not make it right. I have faith in the Amnesty report (which I guess you don’t share) and China is committing human rights abuse on a massive scale.
 

For me what it all boils down to is that people are being harmed for ideological reasons. The weak are being oppressed by the strong. Whether the oppressor is China, the US, the UK or whoever, is irrelevant. I am happy to criticise my own country and it’s allies when they commit war crimes or fail to uphold standards of democracy, free speech and human rights. It seems like you can’t bring yourself to criticise China or Russia when they (like every powerful country) use their power in unacceptable ways. Ironically we are lucky enough to live in a country where we are free to make such criticisms entirely free from threat, unlike citizens of the countries you seem to admire the most. 

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6 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Personally I think it is about time organisations like Amnesty put pressure on nations to sanction China. It is clearly documented, with first hand accounts, the atrocities the chinese government are willing to perform in their quest for cultural dominance and power. The Han-Chinese population thrive whilst the minorities suffer. It is a rogue state that I believe Western governments are enabling by exploiting their cheap Labour and poor workers rights which culminate in cheap exports. 

Does the impetus for these kinds of sanctions not begin with the general public although I imagine it would be near impossible to engage in a boycott of Chinese goods!

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6 hours ago, Ewood Ace said:

Unlike @Dreams of 1995 I don't just read things and take it as gospel. I found out the other night that he is rather susceptible to misinformation when he claimed that Boca fans killed a grave worker.

I will reply to the rest another time but this is just desperate. If only you could see past the end of your own nose you’d realise the irony of this post. 
 

You are right - I shouldn’t have believed what I heard. The fans did send him death threats though. 
 

Starting a post where you discredit a 150+ page report by an independent charity, less than 24 hours after it was published, by claiming you don’t take anything as gospel is.....dumb.
 

How is it that you do not take “anything as gospel” yet assume you know far more than the investigators at Amnesty International, despite living thousands of miles away, based on the statistics a government (with form for lying) have reported? You are far more informed than others, and definitely don’t take anything for gospel with the U.K. government, but appear more than ready to believe whatever the Chinese Communist Party allow you to know. 
 

I mean, I could go on how it is unlikely you have read the 150+ page report before claiming you “could pick it apart”. Yet, here you are, quite obviously having not read the report, managing to deduce it is lies, jealousy, misinformation and plain wrong. 
 

But you do not believe misinformation 
 

You must be on the wind up 

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On 11/06/2021 at 19:28, The Hypnotic said:

 
 

I don’t doubt that there have been terrorist atrocities committed in the region but I don’t agree with the measures taken (as outlined in the amnesty report) to eradicate the threat. Guantanamo bay might have stopped terrorist attacks in the US in the short term but it was undoubtedly a place where human rights were not respected and where atrocities were committed. The British did terrible things in Kenya, the Belgians in the Congo, all in the name of security and stability. But that does not make it right. I have faith in the Amnesty report (which I guess you don’t share) and China is committing human rights abuse on a massive scale.

Calling them 'terrorist atrocities' is not necessarily true.

The Uigher region is another within China whose history is clouded with claims of independence. Throughout the 20th century separatists were active in securing autonomy from a country and society they don't assimilate with. This guy here spells it out far better than I could:

https://blogs.soas.ac.uk/china-institute/2021/05/25/the-politics-of-naming-xinjiang-violence-as-terrorism-i/

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter and there is a lot of evidence out there to show China have abused the "global war on terror" (a farce to begin with) to further their own war against Turkic Muslims.

If I was a devout Muslim and was banned from making the Mecca Pilgrimage for decades there is every reason to think I might also rise up against those who oppress me.

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On 10/06/2021 at 10:42, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

From this weeks “ Private Eye “ - 

“ The Electoral Commission revealed last week that billionaire Peter Cruddas donated £500,000 to the Conservatives on 5 th February just three days after being introduced into the Lords as a Conservative peer. This is the same Cruddas who was a picture of injured innocence in 2012 after the “ Sunday Times “ accused him of offering “ access for cash “ in his capacity as the party’s new co-treasurer. After that expose he had to resign.”

PS: Cruddas’s elevation is in keeping with other recent Tory cash-and-honours coincidences. Party treasurer Ehud Sheleg became “ Sir “ Ehud in Teresa May’s September 2019 resignation honours, a few weeks after writing cheques for nearly half a million quid. A fortnight after his gong , Sheleg shelled out another £375,000. “


See if you can guess which  blonde haired ham shanker wrote this in the “ Telegraph “ in March 2006 - “ There is one fact that is now obvious to the whole country - that peerages, places in the upper house of our legislature, can be bought and sold like golf club memberships. It is odious and it must stop “.

I know, you couldn’t make it up.

The most prescient comment I saw in the latest epistle from Lord Gnome was actually in the funny bits. Matt Hancock is reported as saying that arse coverings will have to continue after 21st June. "I'm going to have to cover my arse for some considerable time yet, possibly right up to the start of the public inquiry in 2022."

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Boris Johnson called health secretary hopeless in WhatsApp message - Dominic Cummings

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57498845

Cummings sticks the knife in again

Waited for Hancock to deny it all before the parliamentary committee, then publishes the evidence. Cummings might be slippery but you can’t deny he’s smart 

It won't matter sadly. Large sections of the voting public have been effectively radicalised. Their emotional investment in this government overcomes any appeal to facts and logic.

 

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3 hours ago, jim mk2 said:

Boris Johnson called health secretary hopeless in WhatsApp message - Dominic Cummings

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57498845

Cummings sticks the knife in again

Waited for Hancock to deny it all before the parliamentary committee, then publishes the evidence. Cummings might be slippery but you can’t deny he’s smart 

It won't matter sadly. Large sections of the voting public have been effectively radicalised. Their emotional investment in this government overcomes any appeal to facts and logic.

 

They’ve been Brexitised Jim.

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4 hours ago, jim mk2 said:

Boris Johnson called health secretary hopeless in WhatsApp message - Dominic Cummings

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57498845

Cummings sticks the knife in again

Waited for Hancock to deny it all before the parliamentary committee, then publishes the evidence. Cummings might be slippery but you can’t deny he’s smart 

It won't matter sadly. Large sections of the voting public have been effectively radicalised. Their emotional investment in this government overcomes any appeal to facts and logic.

 

If Cummings has all this evidence why has he FAILED to supply any of it the Joint committee co-chairmen of Hunt and Clark to back up his evidence he gave to them? 

NO the voting public hasn't been radicalised at all and its just a just typical comment from yourself cos you can't face or admit that Labour Party has been nowhere for years and policies the voters don't want and you have lost the working class voters to the conservative Party. I have asked several questions on several occasions on why the Labour Party has lost working class voters and you failed to answered every time. 

Enough of voting public want Conservative Party policies and ideas plus Johnson has PM and in number 10 Downing Street

44 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

They’ve been Brexitised Jim.

You always blame the same thing without looking deeper in the reasons why the Voting Public has voted to given the Conservative Party the keys to number 10 in a such overwhelming majority in the last general election 2019 and last local elections only a month ago and rejected two different Labour Leaders plus their Policies and ideas

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12 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

If Cummings has all this evidence why has he FAILED to supply any of it the Joint committee co-chairmen of Hunt and Clark to back up his evidence he gave to them? 

Did you not read Jim’s post? 
 

He has provided it. It’s there to see.

 

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20 minutes ago, den said:

Did you not read Jim’s post? 
 

He has provided it. It’s there to see.

 

He hasn't provided any evidence to the co-chairmen of Hunt and Clark have said. Maybe properly read LauraK Tweet properly. Why not? Where is all this supposing evidence? That tweet shows nothing apart from 3 words but no context to the message. Wonder why?

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3 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

He hasn't provided any evidence to the co-chairmen of Hunt and Clark have said. Maybe properly read LauraK Tweet properly. Why not? Where is all this supposing evidence? That tweet shows nothing apart from 3 words but no context to the message. Wonder why?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9692327/amp/Dominic-Cummings-posts-bombshell-WhatsApp-message-Boris-Johnson.html

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5 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

He hasn't provided any evidence to the co-chairmen of Hunt and Clark have said. Maybe properly read LauraK Tweet properly. Why not? Where is all this supposing evidence? That tweet shows nothing apart from 3 words but no context to the message. Wonder why?

That’s just one screenshot of Johnsons comments about Hancock on Cummings’ WhatsApp page.

For all the evidence - and there’s a lot of it - go and read Cummings Twitter feed.

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1 hour ago, den said:

That’s just one screenshot of Johnsons comments about Hancock on Cummings’ WhatsApp page.

For all the evidence - and there’s a lot of it - go and read Cummings Twitter feed.

Does he show proof that Hancock lied?

That was the main accusation in the hearing. That the chair asked if he could verify, and he said he'd go away and look.

All the mud slinging is good fun, but they need to produce a smoking gun. Where's Starmer gone with his "let the bodies pile high" witnesses?

People keep insinuating they've got the goods and then produce nothing. 

Makes no sense. A hammer blow would probably topple this regime. I'm beginning to think no one has an ace up their sleeve. 

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3 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

They’ve been Brexitised Jim.

 

"Brexit is not really a destination but a state of mind. It is not something that government can do, but a way of deferring all the things government should be doing but would rather not contemplate. It is the drink that British politics takes in the morning to postpone the hangover for another day, and Johnson is the national bartender. He keeps the tab open and the punters in good cheer ..."

Rafael Behr

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/16/british-politics-drunk-brexit-spirit-boris-johnson#comments

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