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1 hour ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

Bercow says he regards today’s Conservative party as “reactionary, populist, nationalistic and sometimes even xenophobic”.

“I am motivated by support for equality, social justice and internationalism. That is the Labour brand,” he said. 

John Bercow defects to Labour with withering attack on Johnson | John Bercow | The Guardian

Seems he sees the Labour Party and Labour policies as a better fit for his own views these days. Seems an obvious move on the face of it. 

I suspect that Bercow's move is for one reason which is that he wants his peerage. The man is an egomaniac and the title Lord Bercow or whatever he is given will certainly appeal to him.

1 hour ago, jim mk2 said:

Does it matter? Does ideology and political purity triumph over what surely must be a common cause to rid the country of this inept, divisive and corrupt Tory party?

A & C was a seismic result - hence the panic in Central Office. There are strong underlying reasons why people are moving against the government. Hopefully you would applaud that. 

I think you are getting a little bit carried away with one by election result. There is no evidence in polling that people are moving against them and they are on course to gain a second seat in a by election within a matter of months which is unprecedented in modern British Politics for a governing party.

1 hour ago, 47er said:

What about the great famine in Ukraine? (why the Ukraine still hate Russia today and, at first welcomed the Nazi invaders as their saviours! That's how much they thought of the USSR). That was 1932-3!

French President Edouard Herriot after a visit to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic in 1933 described it as 'like a garden in full bloom' and stated 'When one believes that the Ukraine is devastated by famine, allow me to shrug my shoulders'. The UK Foreign Office in the House of Lords said in 1934 that there was no evidence of a famine and in 1933 Sir John Maynard a famine expert visited the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic and dismissed what he called "tales of famine-genocide propagated by the Ukrainian Nationalists". 

 

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13 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

 

I think you are getting a little bit carried away with one by election result. There is no evidence in polling that people are moving against them

Cronyism, corruption, indifference to the electorate, disdain for parliament, racism, the populist politics of division, lying, contempt for international law, aggression towards the devolved countries of the UK

Then there are international policy failures. Foreign aid is one. Northern Ireland is very obviously another one.

Brexit also hangs heavy. We face labour shortages, food shortages and major border issues. There are threats to agriculture, steel too is at risk. So much for an industrial policy for the "red wall" The City, tourism, hospitality and the leisure sector are losing faith. 

And then there is Covid

All these and much more all turn reasonable people off a party pursuing such activities.

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1 minute ago, jim mk2 said:

Cronyism, corruption, indifference to the electorate, disdain for parliament, racism, the populist politics of division, lying, contempt for international law, aggression towards the devolved countries of the UK

Then there are international policy failures. Foreign aid is one. Northern Ireland is very obviously another one.

Brexit also hangs heavy. We face labour shortages, food shortages and major border issues. There are threats to agriculture, steel too is at risk. So much for an industrial policy for the "red wall" The City, tourism, hospitality and the leisure sector are losing faith. 

And then there is Covid

All these and much more all turn reasonable people off a party pursuing such activities.

I don't disagree with a fair amount of what you say there but there is no particularly strong evidence that 'people are moving against the government' as you said. They have a double digit lead in most polls and as I said earlier are on course to gain a second seat in a by election within a matter of months which is unprecedented in modern British Politics for a governing party.

Labour aren't cutting through on anything because they have no policies and when it comes to opposition they have been no use and have allowed the Tories to get off very very lightly on Covid.

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19 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

French President Edouard Herriot after a visit to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic in 1933 described it as 'like a garden in full bloom' and stated 'When one believes that the Ukraine is devastated by famine, allow me to shrug my shoulders'. The UK Foreign Office in the House of Lords said in 1934 that there was no evidence of a famine and in 1933 Sir John Maynard a famine expert visited the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic and dismissed what he called "tales of famine-genocide propagated by the Ukrainian Nationalists".

Just so we are all clear on your point here: are you denying the Ukrainian famine happened? 

All other arguments centre around whether it is classified as genocide or natural famine. The disputes come in whether the Soviets policy enabled the famine or not. I have never heard anybody deny it existed. 

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2 hours ago, Ewood Ace said:

The Soviet Union up until 1953 is again another great success story for how Socialism develops the lives of people. Again the lives of millions of people were improved, literacy rates soared, standard of living improved, homelessness abolished, a fully public healthcare system was created some 28 years before our NHS, there was mass employment, a basic wage for workers, there was gender equality, a free world class education system & economic growth of incredible levels whilst many other countries were going through the depression.

In 1917 the Soviet Union was a country with no industry whatsoever and by 1945 had been able to defeat the Nazi's, the rate of industrialisation is still unprecedented. You talk about freedoms & rights but without the Soviet Union you wouldn't have any, we would most likely not be having this conversation or at the very least we would be having it in German. The great tragedy with the Soviet Union was the path it took after 1953 which ultimately led to it's demise.

You’ve completely missed the point I was making.

The Soviet Union started at zero in terms of economic stability and prosperity. By adopting a policy of mass industrialization they were able to bring about the growth that every other major nation had already experienced. Therefore that rapid growth and relative prosperity cannot be attributed to communism, it’s simply a sign of the Soviet Union modernizing to match its competitors. However, the effects of that unprecedented growth can be attributed to communism - famines, pogroms, purges and mass executions and imprisonments. Yes the pace of industrialization was unprecedented but that is because it came at a huge cost that democratic countries were unwilling to pay.

We’re starting to drag this topic further away from political discussion and I don’t think either of us will change the other’s mind now so I suggest that we just agree to disagree. 

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1 hour ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Just so we are all clear on your point here: are you denying the Ukrainian famine happened? 

All other arguments centre around whether it is classified as genocide or natural famine. The disputes come in whether the Soviets policy enabled the famine or not. I have never heard anybody deny it existed. 

Those aren't my quotes they are the words of the French President at the time, the UK Foreign Ministry in the House of Lords at the time and the renowned famine expert Sir John Maynard. I'm surprised that you have never seen any of them before. I think that those quotes certainly do give food for thought.

I am not denying there was a famine but I would certainly deny that there was any genocide. What I would say is that the numbers are greatly exaggerated and originate from some very dubious sources. And that the problems in regards to food the region at the time were caused by poor weather conditions (bad harvests in 31 and 32) and Kulak sabotage which is the biggest reason. You also have to remember something which is rarely mentioned which is that during this period there were also typhus and malaria epidemics. 

If you read accounts from foreign observers at the time you will read that they note how the Kulaks would slaughter livestock, set fire to crops and grain and burn down property rather than have them collectivised. In 1928 there were 7 Million pigs in the Ukraine by 1933 there were 2.1 Million, cattle in the same period fell from 8.6 Million to 4.4 Million and horses fell from 5.4 Million to 2.6 Million.

Mikhail Hrushevsky a Ukrainian nationalist who is still admired and respected in the Ukraine to this day said that 'again a year of drought coincided with chaotic agricultural conditions; and during the winter of 1932-3 a great famine, like that of 1921-2 swept across Soviet Ukraine'. 

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1 hour ago, Ewood Ace said:

The UK Foreign Office in the House of Lords said in 1934 that there was no evidence of a famine and in 1933 Sir John Maynard a famine expert visited the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic and dismissed what he called "tales of famine-genocide propagated by the Ukrainian Nationalists". 

 

Well they got it bloody wrong then didn't they? Like the Red Cross reps who visited the camp at Theresienstatd and filed a report stating that Jews were not ill-treated. With totalitarian regimes you see what they want you to see.

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Labour Muslims urge Starmer to take action over party official’s ‘vile Islamophobia’

14:38 , Conrad Duncan

Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer has been urged to take action after a senior party official suggested Muslim voters were abandoning his party over the leadership’s fight against anti-Jewish racism.

An anonymous party strategist was quoted by the Mail on Sunday newspaper as claiming that Labour was “haemorrhaging” Muslim voters because of “what Keir has been doing on antisemitism” ahead of the Batley and Spen by-election.

Our reporter, Jon Stone, has the full story below:

Labour Muslims urge Keir Starmer to take ‘urgent action’ over party official’s ‘vile Islamophobia’ | The Independent

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2 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

If you read accounts from foreign observers at the time you will read that they note how the Kulaks would slaughter livestock, set fire to crops and grain and burn down property rather than have them c

So would I. If you're blaming the weather don't forget that millions of tonnes of grain were exported anyway.

There are stats on that. I must find them.

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2 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Labour Muslims urge Starmer to take action over party official’s ‘vile Islamophobia’

14:38 , Conrad Duncan

Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer has been urged to take action after a senior party official suggested Muslim voters were abandoning his party over the leadership’s fight against anti-Jewish racism.

An anonymous party strategist was quoted by the Mail on Sunday newspaper as claiming that Labour was “haemorrhaging” Muslim voters because of “what Keir has been doing on antisemitism” ahead of the Batley and Spen by-election.

Our reporter, Jon Stone, has the full story below:

Labour Muslims urge Keir Starmer to take ‘urgent action’ over party official’s ‘vile Islamophobia’ | The Independent

Deflection alert!

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1 hour ago, jim mk2 said:

Cronyism, corruption, indifference to the electorate, disdain for parliament, racism, the populist politics of division, lying, contempt for international law, aggression towards the devolved countries of the UK

Then there are international policy failures. Foreign aid is one. Northern Ireland is very obviously another one.

Brexit also hangs heavy. We face labour shortages, food shortages and major border issues. There are threats to agriculture, steel too is at risk. So much for an industrial policy for the "red wall" The City, tourism, hospitality and the leisure sector are losing faith. 

And then there is Covid

All these and much more all turn reasonable people off a party pursuing such activities.

It was one by election result Jim. Which your party that you are member of failed to win either and has resulted in a Key member of Keir Starmer's his director of communications to quit his role. But You never comments on that which I find bizarre and really embarrassing for such a passionate Labour Party member. 

what food shortages Jim? care to elaborate please Jim? My supermarkets and local market fruit and vegetables stall I visited weekly still have all the items they had pre-brexit. So what food shortages?

 

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1 minute ago, chaddyrovers said:

It was one by election result Jim. Which your party that you are member of failed to win either and has resulted in a Key member of Keir Starmer's his director of communications to quit his role. But You never comments on that which I find bizarre and really embarrassing for such a passionate Labour Party member. 

what food shortages Jim? care to elaborate please Jim? My supermarkets and local market fruit and vegetables stall I visited weekly still have all the items they had pre-brexit. So what food shortages?

 

The story is about the Amersham Electorate turning a 16,000 Tory majority into a 8,000 vote defeat.

Thats huge. 
 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, 47er said:

So would I. If you're blaming the weather don't forget that millions of tonnes of grain were exported anyway.

There are stats on that. I must find them.

You will be in for a bit of a shock when you do find them as exports of grain dropped dramatically in 32 and 33.

 

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21 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

Those aren't my quotes they are the words of the French President at the time, the UK Foreign Ministry in the House of Lords at the time and the renowned famine expert Sir John Maynard. I'm surprised that you have never seen any of them before. I think that those quotes certainly do give food for thought.

Ok

What about the slaughter of Cossacks; The August Uprising; the Great Purge and the Kazakh famine? 
 

Is that all a load of “western lies” too? 

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34 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Labour Muslims urge Starmer to take action over party official’s ‘vile Islamophobia’

14:38 , Conrad Duncan

Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer has been urged to take action after a senior party official suggested Muslim voters were abandoning his party over the leadership’s fight against anti-Jewish racism.

An anonymous party strategist was quoted by the Mail on Sunday newspaper as claiming that Labour was “haemorrhaging” Muslim voters because of “what Keir has been doing on antisemitism” ahead of the Batley and Spen by-election.

Our reporter, Jon Stone, has the full story below:

Labour Muslims urge Keir Starmer to take ‘urgent action’ over party official’s ‘vile Islamophobia’ | The Independent

Mad that you have 20:20 vision for this, but the Tory investigation into it passed you by….

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2 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

What about the slaughter of Cossacks; The August Uprising; the Great Purge 

Protecting the revolution from Counter revolutionaries. And you should be very pleased that they did manage to protect it because without the Soviet Union we would most likely be not having the discussion now,  in fact we might quite possibly have never been born and if we were we'd be talking German.

11 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

the Kazakh famine? 

Again very similar circumstances to what we have just been talking about in the Ukraine.

4 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Is that all a load of “western lies” too? 

You quote me here as using the phrase "western lies" could you point my in the direction of where I have used that term in regards to this discussion.

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2 hours ago, Ewood Ace said:

I don't disagree with a fair amount of what you say there but there is no particularly strong evidence that 'people are moving against the government' as you said.

The A & C result suggests otherwise. 

I suspect the so-called red wall will take time to join this trend. And the hard core Tory seats may still vote for whichever electoral donkey the party does put up. 

But last Thursday shows there are straws in the wind

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12 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

Mad that you have 20:20 vision for this, but the Tory investigation into it passed you by….

But the report didn't pass me by tho K-Hod but I choose not to comment on the site. 

Do I really need to comment on every negative Conservative story that get posted on the site? Ever wonder why other Rovers supporting Conservative voters don't come on this part of the site and comment? 

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17 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

But the report didn't pass me by tho K-Hod but I choose not to comment on the site. 

Do I really need to comment on every negative Conservative story that get posted on the site? Ever wonder why other Rovers supporting Conservative voters don't come on this part of the site and comment? 

You chose not to comment on that, but you comment on this though? 
You’d have to ask them, they’re their own people?

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7 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

You chose not to comment on that, but you comment on this though? 

But I haven't comment on this Labour's story but all I have done is posted the article on the forum without any comment from myself? 

maybe the Politics thread should just be Labour Party supporters or Voters?

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52 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

Protecting the revolution from Counter revolutionaries. And you should be very pleased that they did manage to protect it because without the Soviet Union we would most likely be not having the discussion now,  in fact we might quite possibly have never been born and if we were we'd be talking German.

Again very similar circumstances to what we have just been talking about in the Ukraine.

You quote me here as using the phrase "western lies" could you point my in the direction of where I have used that term in regards to this discussion.

Nope. You don’t get to twist it into us not being grateful for the sacrifice Soviet people made if we also acknowledge the atrocities the Soviet state made. That is once again attempting to gaslight the discussion. 
 

I don’t feel grateful that Stalin ordered millions of political ‘dissidents’ to either be executed or sent to Gulags. I don’t feel grateful that his policies starved an entire ethnicity to the point whereby they became a minority in their own country. 
 

I am fed up of this “discussion” with you. Although it isn’t really a discussion because of the outright denialism. I will take The Hypnotics lead and walk away from it all. Your morale compass is reprehensible and you have put on display your ability to ignore human rights atrocities depending on the political ideology which drives it. If you are content with yourself then that is all that matters. In this country we are very lucky the likes of you on the fringe of the political spectrum; represented by the fat cat man George Galloway and his ilk. Some of what you have said in this thread is repugnant to be quite truthful. You either do not have the ability to balance positives and negatives or you have a total disregard for human life so long as your politics wins. Either way, it is totally impossible to debate when met with such stone wall denial that there could be more to it than what the “state” has allowed you to know. 
 

As Blue Blood pointed out, you are more than happy to make conclusions on reports from western governments and organisations by first seeking for ulterior motives and questioning credibility. But quite clearly you do not use those same analytical tools to question the credibility of political leaders like Mao and Stalin. They have the blood of millions on their hands despite all of the advancements they made. You quote them people and appear proud to do so. You are no different to the Neo-Fascists who adore Hitler but your colours are different. And on that note I will leave this discussion because frankly digesting the content you put on here is a lot of effort.

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1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

But the report didn't pass me by tho K-Hod but I choose not to comment on the site. 

Do I really need to comment on every negative Conservative story that get posted on the site? Ever wonder why other Rovers supporting Conservative voters don't come on this part of the site and comment? 

And yet you are happy to comment on every negative Labour story. I'm at a loss as to how you can complain about that happening to the Conservatives yet do the same in reverse. 

Also not liking the negativity towards the Tory party's ahem, misdemeanours, isn't really an excuse to brush them under the carpet... 

Appreciate a repost. 

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36 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

But I haven't comment on this Labour's story but all I have done is posted the article on the forum without any comment from myself? 

maybe the Politics thread should just be Labour Party supporters or Voters?

GOAL POST SHIFTING ALERT

Apparently posting links isn't commenting?!?! Tenuous at best.

Attempting to move the goal posts from highlighting his hypocrisy to it being about who you support! 

If England countered as quickly as he shifted the goal posts we will win the Euros at a canter. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

You are no different to the Neo-Fascists who adore Hitler but your colours are different. And on that note I will leave this discussion because frankly digesting the content you put on here is a lot of effort.

Never forget that it was people who share the same ideology as me who crushed Hitler and his armies. Who in the words of Mr Churchill 'tore the guts out of the German war machine'. They liberated the Nazi death camps at Auschwitz, Gross-Rosen, Kaiserwald, Kauen, Majdanek, Ravensbrück, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof & Vaivara. They liberated Berlin from Nazi rule and were responsible for over 90% of German loses. It was a great shame that British and French governments ignored repeated Soviet attempts to form an anti-Hitler alliance from as early as the mid 30's, who knows how different history may have been. You may not like my ideology but it is the reason that you are able to pompously rant away at me.

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