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8 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

They have been bribed by the so called freedom day. After what I have seen at Asda at Colne last night and at Wembley v Germany and Italy Jim says restrictions will be back by November I'll say sooner.

and yet has 13 points lead over the Labour Party and Starmer. why is this?

 

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14 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

and yet has 13 points lead over the Labour Party and Starmer. why is this?

Probably because Labour under Starmer aren't providing much opposition or offering much of an alternative to the Tories.

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31 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

and yet has 13 points lead over the Labour Party and Starmer. why is this?

Your answer to every crticisim of the Conservatives is "Yeah but labour" but you seem to forget that a large number of people who hate the tories aren't big fans of Labour either (granted there are a few Labour members on here). 

The majority of the electorate did not vote for the Conservative party and the 'disapprove' is consistently higher than the 'approve' so "Yeah but Labour" isn't an argument against this being a shocking Tory government. 

 

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15 minutes ago, RoverDom said:

Your answer to every crticisim of the Conservatives is "Yeah but labour" but you seem to forget that a large number of people who hate the tories aren't big fans of Labour either (granted there are a few Labour members on here). 

The majority of the electorate did not vote for the Conservative party and the 'disapprove' is consistently higher than the 'approve' 

 

They are 2 main parties and the only parties who will get enough MP's to form a one party government. 

on your second point I agree but with our FPTP system it gave the Conservative Party huge majority in the commons. I want a Conservative Party government 

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49 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

They are 2 main parties and the only parties who will get enough MP's to form a one party government. 

on your second point I agree but with our FPTP system it gave the Conservative Party huge majority in the commons. I want a Conservative Party government 

Wanting a Tory party doesn’t excuse supporting an undemocratic FPTP system 

If the Tory party was good it would remain in power under a fairer election system 

As it happens, neither Labour nor Tory want that to happen because they know people will realise they have other options. They are trying to turn this into a Republican v Democrat style nation and people are falling for it 

To fix our broken system we must first fix our voting

And don’t tell me about the last referendum because that was a while ago and was not a fair crack at change 

You just need to understand that FPTP is wholly unfair and does not deliver genuine democratic results 

Edited by Dreams of 1995
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48 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

The most gullible electorate in the world  may be - finally - beginning to notice.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/government-approval

same tracker poll that Ewood posted earlier so why post it again?

Conservative Voters approved of Johnson as do leave voters and nearly 50% of the 65 years old plus do. 

Other party voters don't approved of Johnson but is that a shock? not at all. 

But the latest YouGov Party poll shows Labour party over double digits behind Conservative Party. why is this Jim?

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2 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Wanting a Tory party doesn’t excuse supporting an undemocratic FPTP system 

If the Tory party was good it would remain in power under a fairer election system 

As it happens, neither Labour nor Tory want that to happen because they know people will realise they have other options. They are trying to turn this into a Republican v Democrat style nation and people are falling for it 

To fix our broken system we must first fix our voting

And don’t tell me about the last referendum because that was a while ago and was not a fair crack at change 

You just need to understand that FPTP is wholly unfair and does not deliver genuine democratic results 

See I don't see the FPTP System as undemocratic at all but it is democratic that has this great country for years. I don't think its is wholly unfair at all. 

Dreams, I don't agree about the voting referendum not being fair at all. Clegg got his wish for a vote on it and the Voters rejected it. Clearly didn't want change then. 

I think I can gather from your post above that you don't vote for either main party in the last general election or local election? is that correct Dreams?

 

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Just now, chaddyrovers said:

See I don't see the FPTP System as undemocratic at all but it is democratic that has this great country for years. I don't think its is wholly unfair at all. 

Dreams, I don't agree about the voting referendum not being fair at all. Clegg got his wish for a vote on it and the Voters rejected it. Clearly didn't want change then. 

I think I can gather from your post above that you don't vote for either main party in the last general election or local election? is that correct Dreams?

 

It doesn’t matter if I did really. 
If there is a voting system which effectively has renders millions of votes pointless then it is unfair - which is what FPTP does 

They also painted the vote out like it would pave the way for extremists and embarked on another “project fear” 

If the voters would reject it again, I don’t see a reason why it shouldn’t be put to another vote, but this time without watering down the proposals. Full Proportional Representation is fair

but this topic has been done to death anyway 

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5 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

It doesn’t matter if I did really. 
If there is a voting system which effectively has renders millions of votes pointless then it is unfair - which is what FPTP does 

They also painted the vote out like it would pave the way for extremists and embarked on another “project fear” 

If the voters would reject it again, I don’t see a reason why it shouldn’t be put to another vote, but this time without watering down the proposals. Full Proportional Representation is fair

but this topic has been done to death anyway 

we will have to agree to disagree on this. 

 

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26 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

See I don't see the FPTP System as undemocratic

Two definitions of democracy could you tell me how FPTP fits into either of these? 

1) government by the people especially : rule of the majority

 

The majority didn't vote conservative


2) a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

 

A system of representation where 40% of the vote gets and overwhelming majority

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18 minutes ago, Gav said:

Another step in the right direction for Labour, expel the toxic extremists.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-set-expel-1000-24557627

Reading about the state of Labour's finances you'd have thought he'd want all the membership fees he could get because they are increasingly dwindling.

Edited by Ewood Ace
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53 minutes ago, RoverDom said:

Two definitions of democracy could you tell me how FPTP fits into either of these? 

1) government by the people especially : rule of the majority

 

The majority didn't vote conservative


2) a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

 

A system of representation where 40% of the vote gets and overwhelming majority

That's where we differ. I believe Democracy is voters voting in open and free election where you can vote for whoever you want? 

If you have problem with FPTP system fair enough but the majority don't judging from the referendum we had on this issue 10 years ago

37 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

Reading about the state of Labour's finances you'd have thought he'd want all the membership fees he could get because they are increasingly dwindling.

Let's him keep losing members and membership fees 

Edited by chaddyrovers
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27 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

They never learn do they ? They turn on the socialists in  the party and then they wonder why activists won’t come out and work for the cause.

They turn on the communists and racists Tyrone, call me old fashioned but that’s a plus in my book.

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4 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

same tracker poll that Ewood posted earlier so why post it again?

...... because you missed it the first time  and it doesn't suit your agenda?

Some friendly advice on avoiding Tory bad news:  Only listen to what "PM" Johnson says every three days.  

This will give an impression of consistency.

You will miss the double U-turns from the days between.

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47 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

...... because you missed it the first time  and it doesn't suit your agenda?

Some friendly advice on avoiding Tory bad news:  Only listen to what "PM" Johnson says every three days.  

This will give an impression of consistency.

You will miss the double U-turns from the days between.

How did I miss it when I replied to Ewood about it. Maybe slow down and read the link. no comment about why Labour are still down 13 points on the Conservative Party? guess not cos comment on negative stories about Labour and Starmer. Same old Jim just a different day. 

Jim, the only thing you are consistency on is not answering any questions about the Labour Party and Starmer leadership.

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14 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

How did I miss it when I replied to Ewood about it. Maybe slow down and read the link. no comment about why Labour are still down 13 points on the Conservative Party

Why do you think that the Tories lead is shrinking? Are people starting to have had enough of 'PM' Johnson.

 

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3 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

That's where we differ. I believe Democracy is voters voting in open and free election where you can vote for whoever you want? 

Well many voters can't do that with FPTP.

Let's say I supported the Greens or Reform UK. In my constituency where I have lived and voted for 36 years there have never been candidates for those parties (or their predecessors). There has always been a Lib Dem but that candidate has never stood a chance of winning. Therefore my vote for a choice of party who most closely represents my views can never win.

Of course this also applies to many Conservative and Labour voters in many, maybe even most constituencies in England - for many seats a vote for one or the other is a wasted vote. indeed until the last election it will have been the case for you in your own constituency of Hyndburn Chaddy.

The Greens are currently recording about 5-6% in current opinion polls. That's based on voting intentions under the current system though. If there was a more proportional voting system their share would I guess be closer to 10%. How in god's name can it be an open and free election where around 10% of the electorate are represented by 1 of 650 MPs?

The same applies to most parties most of the time, just not quite as extreme.

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34 minutes ago, only2garners said:

Well many voters can't do that with FPTP.

Let's say I supported the Greens or Reform UK. In my constituency where I have lived and voted for 36 years there have never been candidates for those parties (or their predecessors). There has always been a Lib Dem but that candidate has never stood a chance of winning. Therefore my vote for a choice of party who most closely represents my views can never win.

Of course this also applies to many Conservative and Labour voters in many, maybe even most constituencies in England - for many seats a vote for one or the other is a wasted vote. indeed until the last election it will have been the case for you in your own constituency of Hyndburn Chaddy.

The Greens are currently recording about 5-6% in current opinion polls. That's based on voting intentions under the current system though. If there was a more proportional voting system their share would I guess be closer to 10%. How in god's name can it be an open and free election where around 10% of the electorate are represented by 1 of 650 MPs?

The same applies to most parties most of the time, just not quite as extreme.

The reality would be worse for Labour than it would Tory, too. Labour are becoming increasingly insignificant. It is a shame we are forced to have them as opposition. I think under PR Labour would lose more votes than Tories. 
 

But the Tories also know it would give rise to “progressive” alliances and that’s why they oppose it. It’s all a game to the “big 2” - it’s why when given the chance for fairer voting the Tory party said no and Labour, in typical fashion, sat on the fence 

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32 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

The reality would be worse for Labour than it would Tory, too. Labour are becoming increasingly insignificant. It is a shame we are forced to have them as opposition. I think under PR Labour would lose more votes than Tories. 
 

I don't think so! But if that's what the voters want I don't see that as a problem.

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Just watched a fascinating Dominic Cummings interview with Laura Kuensberg.

Pretty much confirms what many of us on here have said about Johnson and his mishandling of the pandemic from day 1 and how completely useless Johnson is. 
 

When asked if he could back up many of his claims, he said apart from his notes and WhatsApp’s there were a number of witnesses who will speak out in his favour at the covid enquiry which he argues should be undertaken now.

Well worth watching unless you don’t want to hear these things.

 

 

 

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