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Just an observation but the 980 poor souls reported yesterday didn't for the majority apparently die in the last 24 hours some deaths were in March with the majority in the first week of April. It seems to take some time for the deaths to be registered. Not surprising in the present appalling circumstances. The point is the headline daily rate is not what it appears to be

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2 minutes ago, Rogerb said:

Just an observation but the 980 poor souls reported yesterday didn't for the majority apparently die in the last 24 hours some deaths were in March with the majority in the first week of April. It seems to take some time for the deaths to be registered. Not surprising in the present appalling circumstances. The point is the headline daily rate is not what it appears to be

This is a fair ppint

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15 minutes ago, 47er said:

You say "undoubtedly" but I doubt it very much. Lack of beds, lack of staff, lack of PPE would, I suspect, dwarf selfish people doing what they like. I've no data to prove that one way or another but many people did things that were not banned early on and were able to say, like Chaddy, they had followed government instructions to the letter. The government was too late with the restrictions and the virus spread. THEN the restrictions were tightened. You can blame people for not showing common sense but common sense isn't all that common as government should have known, by looking at other countries.

I can agree with you that the government has made some bad calls and I can accept the obvious ---that ignorant people have made things worse.

But the biggest culprit is poor government decision-making. That's not "party political" as some would spring to say, its a criticism of government and I would have made it whoever was in power.

We'll agree to disagree. 

I think in many parts they've been too trusting without a doubt, but they SHOULD be able to trust us to behave!

I'd be glad if we went down the lines France have regarding the times of 'exercise' as people are clearly taking the piss with that one for starters. Some of the things other countries have adapted regarding going to the shops would ideally be rolled out as well.

The most frustrating thing is it's the people that ARE doing as they were asked are suffering most. My poor mum and dad have met their 1 month old daughter literally one time since she was born and it breaks their damn heart.

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15 minutes ago, Rogerb said:

Just an observation but the 980 poor souls reported yesterday didn't for the majority apparently die in the last 24 hours some deaths were in March with the majority in the first week of April. It seems to take some time for the deaths to be registered. Not surprising in the present appalling circumstances. The point is the headline daily rate is not what it appears to be

Look at hospital admissions 

look at how many people die anyway 

look at how deaths are recorded 

look how positive cases are recorded 

everyone just have a little rationale 

them await your post to be deleted

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15 minutes ago, 47er said:

You say "undoubtedly" but I doubt it very much. Lack of beds, lack of staff, lack of PPE would, I suspect, dwarf selfish people doing what they like. I've no data to prove that one way or another but many people did things that were not banned early on and were able to say, like Chaddy, they had followed government instructions to the letter. The government was too late with the restrictions and the virus spread. THEN the restrictions were tightened. You can blame people for not showing common sense but common sense isn't all that common as government should have known, by looking at other countries.

I can agree with you that the government has made some bad calls and I can accept the obvious ---that ignorant people have made things worse.

But the biggest culprit is poor government decision-making. That's not "party political" as some would spring to say, its a criticism of government and I would have made it whoever was in power.

Yeah. I think that's a fair comment. Take the PPE situation for example. A mate on a covid 19 ward firstly had inadequate protection for 2 full days - no goggles, thin plastic aprons the cleaners use to serve dinner, the rest of the protection below WHO standard. 

When the proper equipment came it was 5 years out of date with new best before labels stuck over the originals. Again clearly inadequate. 

It's been the same in other branches of the NHS too, for example the community. And that whether Chaddy likes it or not is a huge government failing. Both in the level of protection and the manner that it has been done. That's not political point scoring, one upmanship but solid facts of government inadequacies and a care and concern for friends and family. It wouldn't matter who was leading the country, the Cons, Labour or Attila the Hun - it's bad. 

And that's before the soft.and slow measures came in, different strategies etc.are considered. 

That said I think there is a huge amount of selfishness and disobedience from a significant minority of the population that is making things way worse. There are significant parts of Leeds for example that aren't isolating. I posted an article about the Greater  Manchester police disrupting a ton of parties and there's the high profile football cases too. All of this is having a huge impact and is making it much harder for the NHS to cope. Incidentally a firmer government response and greater powers to the police could help tackle this problem more. 

The NHS is fighting with its hands tied behind its back. Add in people's disobedience and it has no chance of coping. 

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1 minute ago, Perthrover said:

Can have all this complaining about the Tories but what would have the Labour Party done differently and HAD IN PLACE during the election where they got wiped out?

Hard time to manage the country and this is very distasteful.

For starters they may have closed the schools and public places earlier. 

They may not have pursued herd immunity to begin with. 

They may have added tougher measures on those breaking lockdown. 

They may have been honest with NHS about PPE shortages and not pretended it is all ok and treated them like dupes. 

They may have started planning for the crisis in January. 

They may have joined the European ventilator scheme. 

They may have given quicker support to the self employed. 

They may have already have increased NHS spending (Less sure on impact on this one.) 

They may well have ballsed it up even worse. We won't know. But to suggest there is no room for improvement in a government response is a bit naive. 

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Part of the PPE issue is a lot of it comes from China, our company has had to air freight a load in last week, the cost of which has now become completely extortionate. The freight companies really are taking people for a ride at the moment. I'm not for one minute saying that's the sole reason it just hasn't helped matters.

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3 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

For starters they may have closed the schools and public places earlier. 

They may not have pursued herd immunity to begin with. 

They may have added tougher measures on those breaking lockdown. 

They may have been honest with NHS about PPE shortages and not pretended it is all ok and treated them like dupes. 

They may have started planning for the crisis in January. 

They may have joined the European ventilator scheme. 

They may have given quicker support to the self employed. 

They may have already have increased NHS spending (Less sure on impact on this one.) 

They may well have ballsed it up even worse. We won't know. But to suggest there is no room for improvement in a government response is a bit naive. 

And all those things could have been bang on correct decisions.

Right things at the right times.

Not to mention the fantastic effort to have the Nightingale hospitals operational in such a short timescale, which may not even be required (until winter)....because of the Government response.

The simple measure in hindsight will be if we kept deaths below 20K or not. Even Spain & Italy have not reached that figure yet. Until then we should all shut up and let the grown ups, with all the information, run the country.

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5 minutes ago, OldEwoodBlue said:

And all those things could have been bang on correct decisions.

Right things at the right times.

Not to mention the fantastic effort to have the Nightingale hospitals operational in such a short timescale, which may not even be required (until winter)....because of the Government response.

The simple measure in hindsight will be if we kept deaths below 20K or not. Even Spain & Italy have not reached that figure yet. Until then we should all shut up and let the grown ups, with all the information, run the country.

The Nightingale hospitals are a real pro for which to praise the government.

I'm not sure we all should shut up. It's our husbands, wives, sons, daughters, parents, friends and extended family who're the ones suffering because of inadequate PPE. It's the vulnerable, the advice abiders, the frontline heroes who are being damaged by those ignoring social distancing. I think we have a right and a duty to speak out about this - you don't need to be an expert to see both these situations are not satisfactory and more needs to be done to tackle these issues. 

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29 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

 

36 minutes ago, Perthrover said:

Can have all this complaining about the Tories but what would have the Labour Party done differently and HAD IN PLACE during the election where they got wiped out?

Hard time to manage the country and this is very distasteful.

 

 

Sorry Blue blood, this isn't your post but it doesn't seem to appear anywhere else.

So, to Perthrover, I have NEVER claimed the Labour Party would have done better. No-one can know but they are not in power and therefore it is not an issue.

The criticism I'm making are of the government, the only government.

I do accept that they are facing huge challenges but the day when it is "distasteful" to criticise their mistakes is the day democracy has died.

Further I am on the record as praising the economic measures the government has taken to alleviate poverty for the newly unemployed.

As I said at the time, the health side of it has not been as well done.

Edited by 47er
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Not only are the German Army donating ventilators, but Turkish forces are donating 100k hazmats 100k surgical masks, and 59k N95 masks.

Grateful ofc, but it looks like we're having to receive handouts from other countries because we didn't prepare in advance.

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42 minutes ago, Ossydave said:

Part of the PPE issue is a lot of it comes from China, our company has had to air freight a load in last week, the cost of which has now become completely extortionate. The freight companies really are taking people for a ride at the moment. I'm not for one minute saying that's the sole reason it just hasn't helped matters.

It's a good job we weren't relying on China for uniforms in 1939. As it recall the aid went the other way in those days. The bottom line is we've had 40 years of deindustrialisation and now it takes us all our time to make enough plastic aprons. 

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11 minutes ago, Mike E said:

Not only are the German Army donating ventilators, but Turkish forces are donating 100k hazmats 100k surgical masks, and 59k N95 masks.

Grateful ofc, but it looks like we're having to receive handouts from other countries because we didn't prepare in advance.

We've been doing to other countries for years to be fair so it's good to get something in return.

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40 minutes ago, OldEwoodBlue said:

And all those things could have been bang on correct decisions.

Right things at the right times.

Not to mention the fantastic effort to have the Nightingale hospitals operational in such a short timescale, which may not even be required (until winter)....because of the Government response.

The simple measure in hindsight will be if we kept deaths below 20K or not. Even Spain & Italy have not reached that figure yet. Until then we should all shut up and let the grown ups, with all the information, run the country.

People will discuss what’s going on, as it affects us all. If you and everyone else want to continue to be able to be able to post on a message board, then surely everyone shutting up would be counter productive? 
In terms of on here, it’s the mods that will decide what is acceptable content....

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39 minutes ago, Yoogo said:

I did read that some woman in Lidl was forced to return 1,000 packets of yeast from her trolley back onto the shelf. So where the UK panic-buys loo roll, Croatia seems to think yeast is the one to panic about! Although that was just one story. There has been absolutely no issue with toilet roll (or anything else for that matter), there have been no reports of empty shelves (other than the odd rare story like the aforementioned), and the saying here tends to be that people can't afford to panic buy.

Yeast has been and continues to be one of the items that is very very difficult to buy here too. Loo rolls are fine now but yeast and flour are very hard to find.

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11 hours ago, 47er said:

A clear endorsement of herd immunity by the Government's chief scientific officer and as late as March 13th. I don't see how anyone can deny that.

Doesn't want "knee-jerk reactions" which will lead things to develop "at the wrong rate"!!

and an acceptance that all scientists don’t necessarily agree with the strategies. That makes the claim that we are following the science questionable. 

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Not us. We got the yeast and flour as Christmas gifts along with the bread maker. Have used up all the flour but have yeast left. 

 

Shortage of flour is apparently to do with packaging issues. Most flour produced goes to big manufacturers and is packed in sacks. Ordinary people want 1 or 2 kilo bags and there aren't enough bags in stock.

Edited by gumboots
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2 hours ago, Rogerb said:

Just an observation but the 980 poor souls reported yesterday didn't for the majority apparently die in the last 24 hours some deaths were in March with the majority in the first week of April. It seems to take some time for the deaths to be registered. Not surprising in the present appalling circumstances. The point is the headline daily rate is not what it appears to be

 

I agree because the death rate is likely to be far worse than reported.

The UK does not report deaths in care homes. A clear case of the government trying to hide the true picture. 

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2 minutes ago, gumboots said:

Not us. We got the yeast and flour as Christmas gifts along with the bread maker. Have used up all the flour but have yeast left. 

 

Shortage of flour is apparently to do with packaging issues. Most flour produced goes to big manufacturers and is packed in sacks. Ordinary people want 1 or 2 kilo bags and there aren't enough bags in stock.

Best to shop at Health Stores then where they usually sell it loose?

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 Hancock and the government he works for is a disgrace and letting down the citizens of this country.

Even now Hancock is trying to cover for the lack of PPE equipment by suggesting health workers use what they have sparingly.

"But what I am reiterating, stressing, is the importance to use the right amount of PPE,"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52252470

Susan Masters, national director of nursing policy and practice at the Royal College of Nursing, said the amount of PPE being delivered would only be impressive "when nursing staff stop contacting me to say what they need to use wasn't available".

"The calls are still coming through - people are petrified. They have seen colleagues die already."

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12 minutes ago, gumboots said:

Not us. We got the yeast and flour as Christmas gifts along with the bread maker. Have used up all the flour but have yeast left. 

 

Shortage of flour is apparently to do with packaging issues. Most flour produced goes to big manufacturers and is packed in sacks. Ordinary people want 1 or 2 kilo bags and there aren't enough bags in stock.

Theoretically, shouldn't you always have yeast left?

Edited by Mike E
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3 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

 Hancock and the government he works for is a disgrace and letting down the citizens of this country.

Even now Hancock is trying to cover for the lack of PPE equipment by suggesting health workers use what they have sparingly.

"But what I am reiterating, stressing, is the importance to use the right amount of PPE,"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52252470

Susan Masters, national director of nursing policy and practice at the Royal College of Nursing, said the amount of PPE being delivered would only be impressive "when nursing staff stop contacting me to say what they need to use wasn't available".

"The calls are still coming through - people are petrified. They have seen colleagues die already."

All part of not heeding the warnings early on and not taking this virus seriously. I don’t think that can be denied when Johnson was openly telling the country that he’d been shaking hands with coronavirus patients. There’s a lot of effort going in now, but because of that early reticence we are seemingly permanently behind the game. We will get there but it’s been very costly. 10,000 deaths by the weekend.

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26 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

 Hancock and the government he works for is a disgrace and letting down the citizens of this country.

Even now Hancock is trying to cover for the lack of PPE equipment by suggesting health workers use what they have sparingly.

"But what I am reiterating, stressing, is the importance to use the right amount of PPE,"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52252470

Susan Masters, national director of nursing policy and practice at the Royal College of Nursing, said the amount of PPE being delivered would only be impressive "when nursing staff stop contacting me to say what they need to use wasn't available".

"The calls are still coming through - people are petrified. They have seen colleagues die already."

Due to a global shortage of PPE equipment NHS staff are being asked to use it sparingly and rightly so, back office staff who don't come into contact with patients should not be wearing masks and gloves at the expense of nurses on the front line, makes perfect sense whilst stocks are low.

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