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Your point Do1995 is taken, but I think that they may, just may have seen the light.

We have a right wing government, probably further to the right than the UK. They have wanted, to the point of hysteria, a budget surplus, have campaigned on this since time immemorial and lambasted the opposition when the GFC hit, but, when the shit hit the fan this time, they have unloaded bigtime. Their surplus has gone up in smoke.

We are going into recession for the first time in 30 years and it will be a Liberal (right wing) government that will take us there.

Goes to show, you never know what's around the corner, and always plan for the worst.

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False dichotomy alert. I don't quite see how the two are related. I mean it's not an either or is it? Given the furlough and mortgage schemes (both excellent btw) are already in place before Cumm

Have spent a couple of days thinking what to write on here as I am utterly bewildered as to what this so called government is up to regarding schools. Firstly, before Christmas my school had seve

as you know i dont post on here anymore but i will this once just to wish everyone the best and hope everyone stays safe and comes thru at the other side  of this sad mess.  i would also like to

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11 minutes ago, 47er said:

Er didn't you rely on population density a post or 2 back?

Australia's population density 7 per sq mile. Just about the lowest in the world! You can argue its relevancy given that much of Australia is uninhabitable but it shows the dangers we are getting into with statistical comparisons. You could probably find anomalies in the examples given above, or someone else could!

Really? I'm glad for him and his friends and family. They'll get a boost. Can't say I'd take it farther than that.

Oh no! Really sad about that.

What has density to do with it, it's about transmission.

Sydney has the same density as England (check it out).

The closest stats I can get are for NSW, where we have had 23 deaths.

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55 minutes ago, 47er said:

Still the "nasty Party" I'm afraid.

This isn't the right thread for politics but I firmly believe the Labour party under Corbyn was far more nasty that the Tories.

You know what you get from the Tories, but this hard left nasty racist element in the Labour party is hidden which makes it more difficult to route out. 

My father in law stood for parliament in 80's for Labour and he always talked about Labour members being beaten up at conference, threatened and intimidated at meetings and on marches, things don't seem to have changed much, the people involved are just older and probably more radical.

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I think we locked down too late in Ireland and we did it before the UK, closed schools beforehand too. There was no health reason not to lock down asap when it became apparent what was happening on the continent. 

Please ,please nobody say hindsight. I see that so much online and it's not applicable here. 

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As she says, we have our issues here too of course. If anyone cares ,fore away and ask me. This is worth reading though. Some really have the blinkers on and I think anyone who accuses another for being "political" , are generally playing the political card themselves. 

Screenshot_20200412-144733_Twitter.jpg

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12 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

 I don't get some of your prickliness towards Philipl. I think some just don't want to hear the truth. 

This woman is worth a follow 

Screenshot_20200412-143000_Twitter.thumb.jpg.196e39f451cc368dd54944952bce55b9.jpg

 

Screenshot_20200412-143012_Twitter.jpg

 

11 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I think we locked down too late in Ireland and we did it before the UK, closed schools beforehand too. There was no health reason not to lock down asap when it became apparent what was happening on the continent. 

Please ,please nobody say hindsight. I see that so much online and it's not applicable here. 

Posts like these add to the 'prickliness'. It is taking raw data and analysing it without considering any variables. Refer to The Guardian column where two actual experts in the field have said you can't use the death rate in comparison to confirmed cases to make a reasonable, fair and accurate assessment of governments handling. That viewpoint is shared throughout the field, from all countries. It is only people like Lindsay Doyle, who aren't qualified in this field, who are making convoluted twitter feeds that really just spout misinformation and lead to an uptake in false criticism. 

She came up on my twitter feed not long back with a real-emotive couple of hours bleating on about how we are being failed by our government. In terms of the response to this crisis, we aren't. In terms of testing? Maybe, but Public Health England has to answer questions too. Should we have been more prepared? Well, according to the WHO who's opinion you hold sacrosanct, we were the most prepared nation in the EU for this. 

You have said we don't want to hear the truth but it is actually the exact opposite. Phillipl, and Lindsay Doyle, are both cherry picking information and misrepresenting that to affirm their own opinions. Opinions that may have been formed through conscious bias. 

There are a multitude of reasons why the death rate could be lower in Ireland, Croatia or Australia in comparison to the UK. Actual experts have said as much. We won't know the truth of this until them experts have time away from this virus to collate data, consider variables, understand the virus better and ultimately conclude with a rationale how each government and its health body performed. Right now people like you are taking bits of misinformation and forming a damming opinion which is completely baseless, all the while slamming those that refuse to listen to such trivia as "not wanting to hear the truth".

You don't know the truth just like I don't so stop pretending you are the town crier. o

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3 hours ago, Blue blood said:

 

Not sure Nurses etc. are sick of the negative press. I think they just want adequate protection!

 

I suggested you look at social media cos I have seen posts that NHS staff are fed up with the negative press and just want to their job. 

2 hours ago, Silas said:

What does the comparison look like with Spain, Italy, and France included.

You're cherry picking, which makes them misleading statistics.  

Official statistics they may be, but fair comparison, not so much. 

Edit: Netherlands too, as they are closest to us in terms of population to land mass.

Because he picks the stats which shows our country performing badly. The comparisons aren't right cos you cannot compare the UK to Malta as dreams of 1995 has posted. 

1 hour ago, Silas said:

Deaths per million of population:

1. Spain -  363

2. Italy - 322

3. Belgium - 311

4. France - 212

5. Netherlands - 160

6. UK -    145

7. Switzerland -  120

8. Germany -  34

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/?

 

Far more accurate comparison of the state of play at the moment. Amazing what Germany are doing so far. Well done them. And I have no doubt we will climb this list, probably into the top 3. 

But, some of the blatant misinformation and false comparisons in this thread are becoming tiresome. 

good post Silas which shows the stats are much worse in mainland Europe. 

1 hour ago, Gav said:

Yes he’s been discharged. 

3 nights in intensive care, was touch and go at one stage, but was claimed on here that he wasn’t that ill at all.......sort of backs up my earlier point.

You only hope that Johnson will now understand how important it is to fund the NHS properly and all our front line services, time will tell on that score.

Excellent news PM Johnson has been discharged and will now rest at checkers for a couple of weeks. I am sure he will be involved in discussions this week about extending the lockdown. I wonder if @jim mk2 and other Labour supporters over social media will apologise for their comments about Johnson's health being unwell and ill was just BS and just a cover up? Or will it just be silence?

I think Johnson has always know that the NHS is important. He did announce the 40 new/rebuild hospitals over a number of years. They did announce more funding for the NHS and I would imagine this will be increase year on year. 

I don't know if you read my post earlier which I posted links showing that Labour party under Blair did and wanted to bring even more private medical groups even more into the NHS system. I don't see any Labour supporters complaining about this. wonder why? 

 

Edited by chaddyrovers
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3 hours ago, Blue blood said:

How about the nurses and care workers? See this is the thing. It may look ok but actually when compared to WHO standards and the best before date (or whatever it is) is checked, it may not actually be adequate protection. No way you could know that - or me.for that matter - unless told by NHS staff and those in the know. Sadly the reports from.the NHS - including photographic evidence- is that best before dates and WHO standards are being missed.

No, no, no, no that is not the question, very cleverly diverted. My issue is: was/ is there enough PPE and is it at the right level- the answer to which is a resounding no. Nice change of question though 

From all the hospitals and communities I know of. From the vast outpourings on social media and by the nursing and doctor reps. So yeah I think that is representative of most of the NHS. 

A significant minority - as I agree not everyone will keep the rules - is a level at which it purpetuates and spreads the virus. This is clearly the case as it's not just one or two, it's thousands. Now given the impact this has on multiplying the virus and spreading it those are unacceptable numbers and affects innocent lives too. 

The point of it was that it shows across society there is a significant level of disregard for the isolation. From street parties to footballers the point of mentioning it was to show evidence that there is real issues with people not obeying the lockdown. 

Why didn't NHS bosses make sure that they had enough in date PPE and the right standard? did they check? Either would know the answer to that but I am sure that if the NHS request more PPE the government would have receive it. 

I have family members who work in Hospital and social care and they haven't complained about the PPE not being the right quality or in date.

The third paragraph is misleading as I posted this morning when staff from NHS Lanarkshire said the right quality PPE and in date.

what is a significant minority tho? You have conceded that not everyone has been follow the rules. I have just been to take my uncle tea around I have prepare for him so he still gets his roast dinner and I must have seen around 30 people mainly doing exercise.

what is significant level tho? a few thousand people? if that's the case is less than 1% of the country 

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3 hours ago, Yoogo said:

Patient zero was in Wuhan, and so we all know that it originated in China - that makes them responsible, and they should answer to the world when all of this is over. I just find it curious as to why the Express is saying with certainty that he virus originated in a bat cave, when the rest of media outlets appear to be suggesting without certainty that it originated in a seafood market. No major issue. Just wondering.

China has alot to answer for. 

I'm not sure I believe it from a seafood market at all 

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If there's a biological lab in the Wuhan area, I'd bet that had something to do with it. A massive cock up in the handling of the virus which led to it escaping, and then the Chinese state covering up with stories about bat caves, dodgy markets etc. The all encompassing Communist party must never be seen to make a mistake under Xi's leadership so if a research or weapons lab caused this outbreak, then it has to be someone else's fault. 

There may not be such a facility in that region though, I might be completely wrong, which adds to the fog of rumours and disinformation leaders like Putin or Xi use to rule so completely.

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The Department of Health and Social Care has updated the total number of deaths from Covid-19 of people in hospitals in the UK to 10,612, as of 5pm Saturday, a daily rise of 737.

Wonder what the real number is because not for the first time the government is probably telling lies.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-government-close-to-lies-over-coronavirus-deaths-warns-expert-11972083

 

 

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43 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Why didn't NHS bosses make sure that they had enough in date PPE and the right standard? did they check? Either would know the answer to that but I am sure that if the NHS request more PPE the government would have receive it. 

 

Maybe because the govt didn't order more or prepare them for a pandemic? Maybe because there hasn't been something on this scale for 100 years? Maybe because of the budget cuts to the NHS? Also even if they were culpable it is up to the government to sort it out. They knew it was coming and did little till too late to combat it. The NHS's culpability (which imo is limited) does not take away from the government's whatsoever

43 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

I have family members who work in Hospital and social care and they haven't complained about the PPE not being the right quality or in date.

All my friends and family working in those fields would say the opposite. As do many others on social media and with the nursing and doctors representatives too. Funnily enough none of these sources count unless they back up your point. Even if you are right- and I'm not convinced - keeping it simple, if A has enough and B doesn't that means there still isn't enough. 

The fact you are disputing the PPE narrative when everyone widely accepts there have been issues suggests there's real problems with you engaging with reality. 

43 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

The third paragraph is misleading as I posted this morning when staff from NHS Lanarkshire said the right quality PPE and in date.

Why is it misleading. I use similar sources to what you have quoted in your posts - media, social media and friends and family. Talk about hypocritical. Do these sources only count when you reference them? 

43 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

what is a significant minority tho? You have conceded that not everyone has been follow the rules. I have just been to take my uncle tea around I have prepare for him so he still gets his roast dinner and I must have seen around 30 people mainly doing exercise.

what is significant level tho? a few thousand people? if that's the case is less than 1% of the country 

Again without knowing the numbers a significant minority is one which furthers the spread and continuation of the disease. Whether that's 1 percent or 10 percent of the population is in some respects if the number causes the disease to keep spreading! That's the target, compliance that keeps it from spreading rather than a specific percentage of compliance. Does that make sense? 

That said I think the numbers are bigger then we think. For example round my way seems really good at social distancing but East Leeds is not. Add in people are in house parties, popping round for tea and chats, or in Walkers case high jinks, I don't think we are seeing as much of the non social distancing as is going on. To say we're not seeing it therefore it isn't happening is naive because a lot is happening behind closed doors. Police and media reports are more likely to spot it than us.

 

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The UK entered this crisis with the lowest level of ventilators per head of all OECD countries and no clear testing strategy, very limited PPE. Compare us to Germany who are trouncing us on every metric in combating Covid19.

We also had weeks of advance knowledge from seeing Wuhan, Iran, Italy and Spain and dithered on the lockdown, and mismanaged the production of ventilators and PPE. 

It's nonsense to say we should wait until this crisis is over before having an inquiry on this government's failings. There needs to be an honest national debate now Recall parliament and let Starmer haul the government over the coals. 

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-uk-could-be-worst-affected-country-in-europe-11972251

Meanwhile this guy is straight out the Pritti Patel charm school of ministers who don't know how to say sorry.

People would have more respect for this government if it put its hand up and admitted it screwed up from the start, and was trying its best to put it right. As it stands, its lies and deceit and incompetence is an insult to the British public

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-we-need-to-be-doing-even-more-on-protective-equipment-minister-admits-11972202

 

 

 

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Just watched the latest briefing. I’ve tried to avoid making this political, but this mob really do have no idea what is going on:

19th March - Boris - By the end of April we will he conducting 250K tests a day

2nd April - Hancock - I am setting a new target of 100K tests a day by the end of April

12th April - We are currently testing just 1,500 a day. 
 

We’re still being told to stay inside, yet AT LEAST 1,000 people are dying each day and we are tracking to be the worst death toll in the entirety of Europe. And we are ONLY including people dying in hospitals in our figures.

We have a lockdown in place yet the NHS still cannot cope with the numbers. Not enough PPE, not enough ventilators. The medical college is telling the Government if they don’t provide the PPE they will tell their doctors and nurses NOT TO GO INTO WORK. 
We’re getting handouts from European countries including Germany and Turkey — who are sending the supplies they have SPARE — meanwhile, we are completing tests on our patients to see who we try to keep alive and who we let die whilst building make shift mortuaries to keep the dead out of eyesight. 
It’s an absolute disgrace that we are this underprepared.

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1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

Why didn't NHS bosses make sure that they had enough in date PPE and the right standard? did they check? Either would know the answer to that but I am sure that if the NHS request more PPE the government would have receive it. 

 

Blaming the NHS for this disaster is bullshit and typical deflection tactics by Tory supporters 

This is the government at fault here and it's lack of funding for healthcare over the past 10 years. 

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Stewart Lee very good in today's paper -

" To combat Corona, the government are reassembling the Isaac Levido-led team that won the election. The virus is sure to be defeated by cynically re-edited footage of Keir Starmer appearing confused or by faking Facebook posts and temporarily renaming the Conservative party website coronavirusgohome.com. You cannot beat Covid-19 with lies. That plague ship has sailed. Dominic Cummings is in a sealed off cellar somewhere, his two headed dog of deceit irrelevant in this particular fight ".

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This is unreviewed and therefore unpublished.

But could be significant.

There are indications of blood group transmissions of Covid 19:

A can infect A and AB

B can infect B and AB

AB can infect AB

O can infect everybody- A B AB and O

Super spreaders are typically in blood group O.

 

There is also evidence emerging that Covid 19 inflames membranes in the brain:

https://elemental.medium.com/coronavirus-might-attack-the-brain-too-21ea92a39c04

Edited by philipl
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10 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Stewart Lee very good in today's paper -

" To combat Corona, the government are reassembling the Isaac Levido-led team that won the election. The virus is sure to be defeated by cynically re-edited footage of Keir Starmer appearing confused or by faking Facebook posts and temporarily renaming the Conservative party website coronavirusgohome.com. You cannot beat Covid-19 with lies. That plague ship has sailed. Dominic Cummings is in a sealed off cellar somewhere, his two headed dog of deceit irrelevant in this particular fight ".

You can see Levido's "work" already with the statements from Patel and Sharma - no apologies and an attempt to deflect blame away from themselves on to anyone, even the poor NHS which is having to take the brunt of their incompetence. Healthcare workers are losing their lives FFS. 

Patel actually said the government aren't sorry about their dreadful failings, but they're sorry that you feel that these failings even happened!!! 

What the Tories are trying to do is to create the impression that they have actually been doing a fantastic job, and that anyone who is concerned about the lack of protective gear for medics and other essential workers is confused and deluded about reality.

Goebbels would be proud of this lot

 

 

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12 minutes ago, philipl said:

This is unreviewed and therefore unpublished.

But could be significant.

There are indications of blood group transmissions of Covid 19:

A can infect A and AB

B can infect B and AB

AB can infect AB

O can infect everybody- A B AB and O

Super spreaders are typically in blood group O.

 

There is also evidence emerging that Covid 19 inflames membranes in the brain:

https://elemental.medium.com/coronavirus-might-attack-the-brain-too-21ea92a39c04

There is a study from China which shows blood group A are more susceptible and more likely to die.

Type O the least.

 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/blood-type-covid-19/

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If there are no shortages of PPE how come my wife and my sister have spent the weekend knocking up gowns made of old bedlinen to go to Ormskirk hospital at the specific request of my sister-in-law, a nurse manager there?

On the origin of the virus there was an article in The Observer two weeks ago that specifically stated that, however it came about it was scientifically not possible that it could have been created in a lab. I can't find a link to this now and the paper has been recycled. I'm also in no sense any sort of scientist so I've no idea of the validity of the claim, but it probably stands more chance of being right than a few folk guessing on a football website.

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41 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

Blaming the NHS for this disaster is bullshit and typical deflection tactics by Tory supporters 

This is the government at fault here and it's lack of funding for healthcare over the past 10 years. 

so no apologise for your comments about Johnson's health condition not being really and wasn't critical enough for him to be in ICU? what a surprise.

No condemnation for the comments of senior official of the RMT transport union? what a surprise

Did you not see my link this morning that shows the Labour Party under Blair and Brown wanted to bring in more private health companies into the NHS? no comment on this. what a surprise

No comment about how Labour party got waiting times down in late 90's and early 2000's by using these private health companies? what a surprise

 

Yes the government has made some mistakes over the years with the NHS but lets not try to paint the Labour Party was so good and never made any mistakes with the NHS. have you forgotten the Mid staffs hospital scandal or the failure of Foundation trust hospitals programme? 

I don't expect any sort of response to this from Jim or any other Labour supporting person

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