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6 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

I don't expect any sort of response to this from Jim or any other Labour supporting person

I dread to think how Corbyn and his rag tag outfit would have coped, had they won the last election.

Its pretty grim at the moment, but it would have been catastrophic under that lot.

I really hope once this crisis is over the political landscape changes forever and we end up living in a much fairer/equal society.

 

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21 minutes ago, Gav said:

I dread to think how Corbyn and his rag tag outfit would have coped, had they won the last election.

Its pretty grim at the moment, but it would have been catastrophic under that lot.

I really hope once this crisis is over the political landscape changes forever and we end up living in a much fairer/equal society.

 

Thanks for the response Gav. 

at least you replied and response to my post being a Labour supporter ?

 

Edited by chaddyrovers
thanks Gav for response
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1 hour ago, Blue blood said:

 

Maybe because the govt didn't order more or prepare them for a pandemic? Maybe because there hasn't been something on this scale for 100 years? Maybe because of the budget cuts to the NHS? Also even if they were culpable it is up to the government to sort it out. They knew it was coming and did little till too late to combat it. The NHS's culpability (which imo is limited) does not take away from the government's whatsoever

All my friends and family working in those fields would say the opposite. As do many others on social media and with the nursing and doctors representatives too. Funnily enough none of these sources count unless they back up your point. Even if you are right- and I'm not convinced - keeping it simple, if A has enough and B doesn't that means there still isn't enough. 

The fact you are disputing the PPE narrative when everyone widely accepts there have been issues suggests there's real problems with you engaging with reality. 

Why is it misleading. I use similar sources to what you have quoted in your posts - media, social media and friends and family. Talk about hypocritical. Do these sources only count when you reference them? 

Again without knowing the numbers a significant minority is one which furthers the spread and continuation of the disease. Whether that's 1 percent or 10 percent of the population is in some respects if the number causes the disease to keep spreading! That's the target, compliance that keeps it from spreading rather than a specific percentage of compliance. Does that make sense? 

That said I think the numbers are bigger then we think. For example round my way seems really good at social distancing but East Leeds is not. Add in people are in house parties, popping round for tea and chats, or in Walkers case high jinks, I don't think we are seeing as much of the non social distancing as is going on. To say we're not seeing it therefore it isn't happening is naive because a lot is happening behind closed doors. Police and media reports are more likely to spot it than us.

 

can the NHS not order PPE directly anyway. Its a good question why the head of NHS England need to answer along with Matt Hancock. Surely this doesn't need Government approval?

It does appear some shortages in some areas of the country and that's does need to rectify as soon as possible. Whilst some areas of the country seem to have enough. 

You have admit yourself that it is impossible for the 100% to stay indoors without for the reasons why you should be outside. You have said significant minority are not listening but you have no numbers to back this point up as to how many aren't following the rules?. Police are set to release the figures of fines on Wednesday I believe. My area where I live is quiet as I have ever heard it. Nothing is open. people are staying inside. No kids playing football or sport outside. its so peaceful. 

Clearly some people aren't listening but if 99% of the country are following the rules then this is massive bonus for the country and they are doing the right thing for many many people

I

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29 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

so no apologise for your comments about Johnson's health condition not being really and wasn't critical enough for him to be in ICU? what a surprise.

No condemnation for the comments of senior official of the RMT transport union? what a surprise

Did you not see my link this morning that shows the Labour Party under Blair and Brown wanted to bring in more private health companies into the NHS? no comment on this. what a surprise

No comment about how Labour party got waiting times down in late 90's and early 2000's by using these private health companies? what a surprise

 

Yes the government has made some mistakes over the years with the NHS but lets not try to paint the Labour Party was so good and never made any mistakes with the NHS. have you forgotten the Mid staffs hospital scandal or the failure of Foundation trust hospitals programme? 

I don't expect any sort of response to this from Jim or any other Labour supporting person

Great whataboutery. Goodness knows what Blair has to do with today’s problems but what he and brown did was turn around the NHS from the awful state it was in when they inherited it from another Tory government. 
 It will need to be done again when this lot have finished with it.

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1 minute ago, den said:

Great whataboutery.

Goodness knows what Blair has to do with today’s problems but what he and brown did was turn around the NHS from the awful state it was in when they inherited it from another Tory government. 
 It will need to be done again when this lot have finished with it.

Typical response there isn't it. 

You and JIm complained about the Conservatives bringing in private medical companies but this is exactly what Blair and Brown did in the 90's and 00's. Plus if you read the link I posted this morning about Blair and brown wanting to bring in more Private companies into the NHS. 

But no condemnation for Labour doing it but very happy to condemn the Conservatives at every opportunity. 

No condemnation for the RMT official from yourself over his comment about having a party if PM Johnson was to die

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46 minutes ago, only2garners said:

If there are no shortages of PPE how come my wife and my sister have spent the weekend knocking up gowns made of old bedlinen to go to Ormskirk hospital at the specific request of my sister-in-law, a nurse manager there?

On the origin of the virus there was an article in The Observer two weeks ago that specifically stated that, however it came about it was scientifically not possible that it could have been created in a lab. I can't find a link to this now and the paper has been recycled. I'm also in no sense any sort of scientist so I've no idea of the validity of the claim, but it probably stands more chance of being right than a few folk guessing on a football website.

I posted an article on here a few weeks ago. It was from either Nature or Science magazine. It detailed how the virus was created in nature, and not a lab. I'll see if I can dig it up again.

Watching the UK situation from afar it looks like the government did - much like the USA - miss a trick or two and could have got on top of the virus earlier. However, unlike the USA decisions made weren't borne of ignorance, stupidity, and a denial of reality.

 

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I’ve seen numerous reports of pastors refusing to lockdown churches in US over Easter, even though some governors have made gatherings illegal.

Absolutely bonkers, they’ll end up killing thousands.

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46 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

can the NHS not order PPE directly anyway. Its a good question why the head of NHS England need to answer along with Matt Hancock. Surely this doesn't need Government approval?

Not sure. But think it's being done on a national level elsewhere which suggests it is governmental issue. And NHS staff anger is at government which suggests it is also their remit. This also ignores any fault of the government in procurement, precious trashing of the NHS, supporting the NHS in getting the stuff. It seems you are absolving the government of any blame, which really doesn't help you have credibility. 

Even if and I don't think it's the case, it was the NHS responsibility, IF they were failing in it, it's the government's responsibility to oversee, step in and prevent/rectify it. Whatever way you look at it the government has made a clanger on this one

 

Quote

It does appear some shortages in some areas of the country and that's does need to rectify as soon as possible. Whilst some areas of the country seem to have enough. 

In other words there isnt enough PPE. In other words the government have messed up. 

Quote

You have admit yourself that it is impossible for the 100% to stay indoors without for the reasons why you should be outside. You have said significant minority are not listening but you have no numbers to back this point up as to how many aren't following the rules?. Police are set to release the figures of fines on Wednesday I believe. My area where I live is quiet as I have ever heard it. Nothing is open. people are staying inside. No kids playing football or sport outside. its so peaceful. 

The numbers are hard to find as I have explained why. However annicdotally the number of people reporting others not obeying the rules suggests it is more than a couple of people. 

Found the article about the greater Manchester police https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-52221688

This States 660 parties, 1132 breaches in 2 weeks. Now given the parties at a conservative estimate have a number of people this is suggesting that it is not isolated half dozen people we are looking at. 

Remember this is just one area of the country. Multiply this out and it gets scary.

Bare in mind that these are just the ones caught, spotted and recorded too. Factor in the host that are got away with too. All the social visits and the smaller gatherings.

I can't give an accurate number but these are showing the numbers can't be ignored. 

Quote

Clearly some people aren't listening but if 99% of the country are following the rules then this is massive bonus for the country and they are doing the right thing for many many people

I

 Again the rate of success isn't the percentage following the rules but if that percentage stops the virus spreading. Just like when we got relegated under TM (this is a metaphor) the level of success wasn't 50 points or a certain amount of wins but whether we got enough points to stay up. Likewise the success rate isn't an arbitrary percentage but whether it is stopping the virus spreading. If it's 80% to stop it spreading, fine, if it's 99.9% to stop it spreading then that's the measure of success. 

As it is, due to the stats and what I have seen, I don't think we are at 99% of the population abiding by it at all...

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Superb whatabbouttery and all the right wing can say is that it would have been worse under Corbyn. Brilliant!

Interesting that Johnson thanked the New Zealand and Portuguese nurses who helped to saved his life. I wonder if he's still glad he "got Brexit done"?. 

Johnson should do the decent thing for the first time in his life; get the PPE and testing problem finally sorted albeit 3 weeks late and then resign. 

Edited by jim mk2
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Just now, Blue blood said:

Not sure. But think it's being done on a national level elsewhere which suggests it is governmental issue. And NHS staff anger is at government which suggests it is also their remit. This also ignores any fault of the government in procurement, precious trashing of the NHS, supporting the NHS in getting the stuff. It seems you are absolving the government of any blame, which really doesn't help you have credibility. 

Even if and I don't think it's the case, it was the NHS responsibility, IF they were failing in it, it's the government's responsibility to oversee, step in and prevent/rectify it. Whatever way you look at it the government has made a clanger on this one

what I trying to say is that if the NHS wants more PPE then said receive it asap. whether it the NHS or Government ordering it. 

I am not trashing the NHS at all as I am proud of the NHS. Something that has help me through my life from day 1 of my life. 

I want the Government and NHS working together to provide the amount of PPE that all our NHS and social care staff need. 

5 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

The numbers are hard to find as I have explained why. However annicdotally the number of people reporting others not obeying the rules suggests it is more than a couple of people. 

Found the article about the greater Manchester police https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-52221688

This States 660 parties, 1132 breaches in 2 weeks. Now given the parties at a conservative estimate have a number of people this is suggesting that it is not isolated half dozen people we are looking at. 

Like I said at the time these people are idiots and clearly don't get it. But the vast majority get it and support another lockdown period if require to deal with the Coronavirus. Yes it isn't easy not being to see family or Friends members but that is what is require. It is very important that we stick together and follow the government rules

i

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47 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Typical response there isn't it. 

You and JIm complained about the Conservatives bringing in private medical companies but this is exactly what Blair and Brown did in the 90's and 00's. Plus if you read the link I posted this morning about Blair and brown wanting to bring in more Private companies into the NHS. 

But no condemnation for Labour doing it but very happy to condemn the Conservatives at every opportunity. 

No condemnation for the RMT official from yourself over his comment about having a party if PM Johnson was to die

I haven’t complained about the use of private medicine within the NHS ever, as far as I’m aware Chaddy. Wrong person.

does that mean you accept the NHS was underfunded under the Tories then and now? 

Edited by den
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4 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

Superb whatabbouttery and all the right wing can say is that it would have been worse under Corbyn. Brilliant!

Interesting that Johnson thanked the New Zealand and Portuguese nurses who helped to saved his life. I wonder if he's still glad he "got Brexit done"?. 

Johnson should do the decent thing; get the PPE and testing problem finally sorted albeit 3 weeks late and then resign. 

so still no apology for your post saying PM Johnson didn't need a ICU bed. pathetic!

If it a skill or Job we need then people from overseas can come in. Similar to the Australia style immigration points based system. You don't seem to get this. 

I have never mention Corbyn Jim in this debate

No Johnson should rest for a couple of weeks before resuming his full duties as Prime Minister and carry on the job he started in December and deal with this virus. 

You simple cannot stop playing party politics and take that Labour hat off can you? 

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Without knowing all the facts (none of us do), without going back through all this thread, and without wanting to sound like a Gov't apologist, there are a couple of points here about the UK being disproportionately badly affected compared to our peers that I think are being overlooked in some analyses on here, and in the wider media. This centres around the fact that London distorts the whole of the UK's figures (like it does in most other statistical analyses across all walks of life). London is so different to the rest of the country yet its figures are included in general UK statistics; but they cannot be extrapolated across the UK as a whole.

Just like NY in the US, London is the centre of the outbreak here and probably accounts for one third to a half of the UK's total infections & deaths. London is unique not just to the UK but to the rest of Europe (including notably Germany against whom many consider our equal). Besides Moscow & Istanbul (are they European?) London is by far the most populous city in Europe, being about 2.5 times more so than Berlin. Added to that, Heathrow was the 7th busiest airport in the world in 2018, & easily the busiest in Europe.

For spreading a virus that has a 2 week asymptomatic incubation period, high population density & transience are a toxic combination. Nowhere else in Europe has anywhere near that risk combination.

For that reason comparing the UK with anywhere else is like comparing apples with oranges. I absolutely agree that after this settles down an inquiry will be needed, not to scapegoat but to learn lessons. I'm sure mistakes have been made not just by this Gov't but by its predecessors and by those abroad, but in such unprecedented circumstances there was never going to be a "1 size fits all" solution to this, as some would have us believe.

 

 

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I’m taking the liberty of reposting an article that Philipl posted in the politics thread. It’s all in here, the warnings, the inept response from Johnson and the government. It’s quite damning. Worth reading.

https://bylinetimes.com/2020/04/11/a-national-scandal-a-timeline-of-the-uk-governments-woeful-response-to-the-coronavirus-crisis/

Edited by den
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17 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

what I trying to say is that if the NHS wants more PPE then said receive it asap. whether it the NHS or Government ordering it. 

Sorry not sure this makes sense. Perhaps a typo? 

17 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

I am not trashing the NHS at all as I am proud of the NHS. Something that has help me through my life from day 1 of my life. 

I want the Government and NHS working together to provide the amount of PPE that all our NHS and social care staff need. 

Is this admission the government have a role.in and are to blame for the shortage of PPE? 

17 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Like I said at the time these people are idiots and clearly don't get it. But the vast majority get it and support another lockdown period if require to deal with the Coronavirus. Yes it isn't easy not being to see family or Friends members but that is what is require. It is very important that we stick together and follow the government rules

i

You miss my point on 2 levels. Firstly the level necessary for success, which isn't  the same as whether the majority are obeying it. For example it some water is contaminated the issue isn't what percentage of the water is contaminated but whether that percentage is harmful. Does this make sense? You also asked me for numbers and I gave you some from one area. These numbers show that there are a fair few people, albeit in the minority, who are disobeying the lockdown. That these numbers are more than one or two I suggest that support and compliance is not as high as you think it is and that this is causing us real problems. 

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14 minutes ago, den said:

does that mean you accept the NHS was underfunded under the Tories then and now? 

When is then? 

Is the NHS underfunded now? 

I would say some areas are underfunded like Social care or Mental health. But Like I saying a couple of years ago, we need to build more hospitals within the country to help with the demand. This is now happening under PM Johnson.  Also there is a number of people who go to A and E when they don't need to. Go to the GP instead. 

But I also said on here many times that NHS should be fully funded with what the demand is for. Money should be no objection for the greatest institution in our country. 

I have used the 35 years of my life. 

NHS shouldn't be about party politics but fully funded whatever it needed. Simple as!  

I have said both Main political parties have made mistakes with schemes and systems bought into the NHS. 

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The PPE shortage is a global issue. Some countries clearly stockpiled more than others. I must say I know numerous NHS staff too and none of them have experienced supply issues so it clearly depends on location.

80% of PPE equipment is produced in China, well it was, I suspect that will change now. I know its available and I know the price is around 20 times what it was to get it over here  now. 

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1 hour ago, Gav said:

I dread to think how Corbyn and his rag tag outfit would have coped, had they won the last election.

Its pretty grim at the moment, but it would have been catastrophic under that lot.

I really hope once this crisis is over the political landscape changes forever and we end up living in a much fairer/equal society.

 

You're making the mistake of thinking that any Labour Government would have allowed the NHS to sink to the position we find it in now. You also making the mistake of thinking the Tory Party has any interest in creating a more equal society. That's not the name of their game. More for you = less for them.

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2 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

so no apologise for your comments about Johnson's health condition not being really and wasn't critical enough for him to be in ICU? what a surprise.

No condemnation for the comments of senior official of the RMT transport union? what a surprise

Did you not see my link this morning that shows the Labour Party under Blair and Brown wanted to bring in more private health companies into the NHS? no comment on this. what a surprise

No comment about how Labour party got waiting times down in late 90's and early 2000's by using these private health companies? what a surprise

 

Yes the government has made some mistakes over the years with the NHS but lets not try to paint the Labour Party was so good and never made any mistakes with the NHS. have you forgotten the Mid staffs hospital scandal or the failure of Foundation trust hospitals programme? 

I don't expect any sort of response to this from Jim or any other Labour supporting person

Ofc Labour made mistakes with the NHS. But they didn't actively and deliberately starve it of funding to the extent that doctors and nurses are dying by the dozen.

Any defence of Conservative treatment of the NHS is the act of a psychopath or a sycophant.

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15 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

When is then? 

Is the NHS underfunded now? 

I would say some areas are underfunded like Social care or Mental health. But Like I saying a couple of years ago, we need to build more hospitals within the country to help with the demand. This is now happening under PM Johnson.  Also there is a number of people who go to A and E when they don't need to. Go to the GP instead. 

But I also said on here many times that NHS should be fully funded with what the demand is for. Money should be no objection for the greatest institution in our country. 

I have used the 35 years of my life. 

NHS shouldn't be about party politics but fully funded whatever it needed. Simple as!  

I have said both Main political parties have made mistakes with schemes and systems bought into the NHS. 

You're right, money should be no object for the NHS and yet our government have the temerity to 'waive' £13bn ogmf NGS debt to the Government. Ie: an admission they have underfunded it by AT LEAST that amount.

I use the NHS at least once every 6 weeks (even more when I'm ill). Under the Conservatives, it is far worse than it is under Labour.

You only ever get Conservatives who are involved in think-tanks and write books about stopping its existence.

The Conservatives are anti-Healthcare. They believe your right to health is only as good as the number of zeroes on your bank balance.

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40 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

We seem to be encountering a case of " Schrodingers PPE ", that's were we simultaneously have a shortage and at the same time everyone is getting what they need.

Not to mention only 1% of emergency loans being processed plus employers can't access the claim back system.

It's a shambles all round.

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48 minutes ago, Mike E said:

Ofc Labour made mistakes with the NHS. But they didn't actively and deliberately starve it of funding to the extent that doctors and nurses are dying by the dozen.

Any defence of Conservative treatment of the NHS is the act of a psychopath or a sycophant.

Labour made mistakes with the NHS? massive mistakes like North Staffs hospital Mike. Have you what the Cure which is about the crisis within the North Staffs Hospital and how Patients was left to die and poor care by nurses and Hospital management staff. 

You mention Labour didn't starve the NHS so why did North Staffs Hospital trust board want to make 10 million pounds in savings as part of the plan to gain foundation trust status in 2006/07?

Did you read the link I provided this morning about Labour wanting to bring in more private Health companies under Blair and Brown leadership? But Corbyn complained during the 2019 election about The conservatives wanted to sell the NHS to USA but in 2006 under Labour Government with Blair as PM "By 2008 we could have as much as 40 percent of acute operations done in the private sector under the NHS Banner."

Here is the NHS budget for the last 12 years 

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget

42 minutes ago, Mike E said:

You're right, money should be no object for the NHS and yet our government have the temerity to 'waive' £13bn ogmf NGS debt to the Government. Ie: an admission they have underfunded it by AT LEAST that amount.

I use the NHS at least once every 6 weeks (even more when I'm ill). Under the Conservatives, it is far worse than it is under Labour.

You only ever get Conservatives who are involved in think-tanks and write books about stopping its existence.

The Conservatives are anti-Healthcare. They believe your right to health is only as good as the number of zeroes on your bank balance.

I used the NHS for the past 35 years of my life Mike for a number of varied conditions and problems. So to say it is far worse under Conservatives isn't true in my opinion. 

Under the Conservatives government the NHS spending for 2020/21 will be 137.1 billion pounds will be on day to day items whilst 8 billion pounds will be spent on Equipment and buildings

58 minutes ago, Ossydave said:

I must say I know numerous NHS staff too and none of them have experienced supply issues so it clearly depends on location.

80% of PPE equipment is produced in China, well it was, I suspect that will change now. I know its available and I know the price is around 20 times what it was to get it over here  now. 

This was the point I was making Blue Blood. 

Typical China tho. Caused the virus and now put the prices to boost their economy. 

Well now have companies like Burberry making PPE for the NHS which is a good thing for our economy and business. 

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4 hours ago, J*B said:

Just watched the latest briefing. I’ve tried to avoid making this political, but this mob really do have no idea what is going on:

19th March - Boris - By the end of April we will he conducting 250K tests a day

2nd April - Hancock - I am setting a new target of 100K tests a day by the end of April

 12th April - We are currently testing just 1,500 a day. 
 

We had this yesterday. It's not 1,500. It's been way more than that for a while.

Therefore when you have a basic fact wrong such as that, I just skim over the other points of your post as I see them as dubious,  On ventilators, have we breached capacity on a nationwide level? As far as I'm aware we haven't yet.

At work, we deal with companies in both Belgium and Holland. Speaking to them, their hospitals are almost at capacity and they don't have enough PPE.  This despite the fact Hollands first virus case was almost a month after the UK reported our first case.

That's  not saying our response has been great. For example PPE for front line staff should be number one priority, and it has obviously been way too slow and it needs addressing immediately.

But we are having the same issues as many hard-hit european countries, and all their responses can't have been an absolute disgrace.

Its like the Sam Gallagher issue. People say he has either been great or absolutely shit. When in reality it's in the middle. Same here.

Edited by Hasta
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2 hours ago, Blue blood said:

Not sure. But think it's being done on a national level elsewhere which suggests it is governmental issue. And NHS staff anger is at government which suggests it is also their remit. This also ignores any fault of the government in procurement, precious trashing of the NHS, supporting the NHS in getting the stuff. It seems you are absolving the government of any blame, which really doesn't help you have credibility. 

Even if and I don't think it's the case, it was the NHS responsibility, IF they were failing in it, it's the government's responsibility to oversee, step in and prevent/rectify it. Whatever way you look at it the government has made a clanger on this one

 

In other words there isnt enough PPE. In other words the government have messed up. 

The numbers are hard to find as I have explained why. However annicdotally the number of people reporting others not obeying the rules suggests it is more than a couple of people. 

Found the article about the greater Manchester police https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-52221688

This States 660 parties, 1132 breaches in 2 weeks. Now given the parties at a conservative estimate have a number of people this is suggesting that it is not isolated half dozen people we are looking at. 

Remember this is just one area of the country. Multiply this out and it gets scary.

Bare in mind that these are just the ones caught, spotted and recorded too. Factor in the host that are got away with too. All the social visits and the smaller gatherings.

I can't give an accurate number but these are showing the numbers can't be ignored. 

 Again the rate of success isn't the percentage following the rules but if that percentage stops the virus spreading. Just like when we got relegated under TM (this is a metaphor) the level of success wasn't 50 points or a certain amount of wins but whether we got enough points to stay up. Likewise the success rate isn't an arbitrary percentage but whether it is stopping the virus spreading. If it's 80% to stop it spreading, fine, if it's 99.9% to stop it spreading then that's the measure of success. 

As it is, due to the stats and what I have seen, I don't think we are at 99% of the population abiding by it at all...

Measure of success is that, on average, for every person who is currently infected they go onto infect less than one person. That turns the disease from growing to shrinking. 

So to put it in perspective if 100k people have COVID, 80k self isolate really well and infect no one, while 20k go out and party and infect 4 people each the UK would still have a declining disease as that's a reduction from 100k to 80k infected. However obviously disappointing though as you could have got down to 0k except for those people being fuckwits. Instead youve only gone down 20% in this example and as it will take longer to resolve more people will die.

But in essence if the majority act stringently it does offset the actions of the minority. So I would say the vast numbers taking things seriously is having a huge impact.

That said we have to keep it up. Radically reducing high public interraction activities is what is going to control the disease. So that means keeping high people density places like pubs, restaurants, shopping malls, air travel, public transport, non essential workplaces closed or severely restricted for the long term until we have either effective comprehensive mass testing, effective anti-viral drugs or a vaccine. That could take anything from 4 to 18 months.

I do think people will be allowed to meet in small groups and see family etc soon though as that is relatively low risk.

 

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