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24th January 2021 Middlesbrough Away 15:00


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2 hours ago, rigger said:

Each to their own, but for me, Douglas has been going through a poor patch of form. Bell is a poor footballer. Douglas could improve, Bell won't. Therefore I would go with Douglas.

Douglas did look fitter recently. Problem with late signings is you can find yourself halfway through the season and they're just getting up to speed. 

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This guy is turning out to be a good investment!

I see your user name is submarine. Is that why you got this wrong?

2 superb passes from, without doubt, our best player. All those doubting Dack need to give their heads a wobble.

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12 hours ago, davulsukur said:

Worrying if our best player by some distance doesn't suit the system we play (the system being an incomprehensible mess)

 

Our best player is Harvey Elliot, our second best player is Adam Armstrong. Both of them unequivocally suit the 4-3-3. 

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10 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

The system hasnt got Armstrong 17 goals, he has.

Oh come on. When a striker is getting so many open goal chances from 2 yards, you have to acknowledge that the system itself is creating those chances for him. He's matched last seasons goal tally at the half way stage of this season and the major change has been a shift in formation. 

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Bradley Dack isn't any longer our best player. He may become that again, but that's a big maybe. Our best players are the joint top league goalscorer and the leagues best promising young talent in Adam Armstrong and Harvey Elliott.

Armstrong has thrived in the 4-3-3, scoring 17 goals in half a season and having the season of his career so far. Harvey Elliott has come from Liverpool, the masters of the 4-3-3, and knows the system in the RW and RCM roles like the back of his hand at just 17 years old.

But sure, let's permanently switch back to a 4-2-3-1 or to another old system, all to suit an unfit Bradley Dack. Weigh up the pros and the cons that it would bring along with it and surely the logical answer is to use the system that suits your current best players.

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1 hour ago, JoeH said:

Bradley Dack isn't any longer our best player. He may become that again, but that's a big maybe. Our best players are the joint top league goalscorer and the leagues best promising young talent in Adam Armstrong and Harvey Elliott.

Armstrong has thrived in the 4-3-3, scoring 17 goals in half a season and having the season of his career so far. Harvey Elliott has come from Liverpool, the masters of the 4-3-3, and knows the system in the RW and RCM roles like the back of his hand at just 17 years old.

But sure, let's permanently switch back to a 4-2-3-1 or to another old system, all to suit an unfit Bradley Dack. Weigh up the pros and the cons that it would bring along with it and surely the logical answer is to use the system that suits your current best players.

It might suit Armstrong and Elliot, but hard to argue it suits the whole team when we're no better off than last season. Something's gotta change, and if gambling on getting Dack fit and back to his best helps the team then I'm not sure why you'd be against that. If the 4-3-3 had us high in the league then perhaps you'd have a point. 

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1 hour ago, JoeH said:

Bradley Dack isn't any longer our best player. He may become that again, but that's a big maybe. Our best players are the joint top league goalscorer and the leagues best promising young talent in Adam Armstrong and Harvey Elliott.

Armstrong has thrived in the 4-3-3, scoring 17 goals in half a season and having the season of his career so far. Harvey Elliott has come from Liverpool, the masters of the 4-3-3, and knows the system in the RW and RCM roles like the back of his hand at just 17 years old.

But sure, let's permanently switch back to a 4-2-3-1 or to another old system, all to suit an unfit Bradley Dack. Weigh up the pros and the cons that it would bring along with it and surely the logical answer is to use the system that suits your current best players.

I think this is a prime example of people forgetting the impact Dack has had since joining us. Elliott isn’t even our player, Armstrong is out of form and we need to get Bradley Dack back to his best. 
If the system that used to work much better than the current one gets the best out of him, then that’s what we need to go back to....

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1 hour ago, JoeH said:

Bradley Dack isn't any longer our best player. He may become that again, but that's a big maybe. Our best players are the joint top league goalscorer and the leagues best promising young talent in Adam Armstrong and Harvey Elliott.

Armstrong has thrived in the 4-3-3, scoring 17 goals in half a season and having the season of his career so far. Harvey Elliott has come from Liverpool, the masters of the 4-3-3, and knows the system in the RW and RCM roles like the back of his hand at just 17 years old.

But sure, let's permanently switch back to a 4-2-3-1 or to another old system, all to suit an unfit Bradley Dack. Weigh up the pros and the cons that it would bring along with it and surely the logical answer is to use the system that suits your current best players.

We have played 4-3-3 more or less ever since the return from lockdown. That is 33 games of football and in those 33 games we have just 43 points. The 4-3-3 has brought little to no improvement as it does not suit the group of players that we have.

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4 hours ago, rigger said:

Each to their own, but for me, Douglas has been going through a poor patch of form. Bell is a poor footballer. Douglas could improve, Bell won't. Therefore I would go with Douglas.

I can understand your thoughts behind that I’m just not impressed with Douglas. Bell at least puts a shift in.

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14 hours ago, JoeH said:

For me Bradley Dack hasn't warranted a start. He's far from ready & he doesn't suit the system that has got 17 goals for Armstrong so far this season. Bring him on later on in the game if and when needed, much like Dolan & Rothwell too. Travis & Davenport to match their physicality.

Kaminski

Nyambe
Lenihan
Branthwaite
Douglas

Holtby
Travis
Davenport

Elliott
Armstrong
Brereton

The argument that Dack is 'not ready' will continue ad infinitum if he doesn't play. If it is a valid argument then it would also apply to Travis who has looked woefully off the pace so far.  

On the other hand, if they have been rushed back too quickly then that is down to the manager who seems to have a habit of letting the players decide themselves if they are ready or not.

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15 hours ago, JoeH said:

For me Bradley Dack hasn't warranted a start. He's far from ready & he doesn't suit the system that has got 17 goals for Armstrong so far this season. Bring him on later on in the game if and when needed, much like Dolan & Rothwell too. Travis & Davenport to match their physicality.

Kaminski

Nyambe
Lenihan
Branthwaite
Douglas

Holtby
Travis
Davenport

Elliott
Armstrong
Brereton

For me Travis doesn't merit a start either.

I'd pick Davenport, Holtby and Trybull.

Imo Trybull has been good in the few chances he's had; much like Davenport.

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2 hours ago, JoeH said:

Bradley Dack isn't any longer our best player. He may become that again, but that's a big maybe. Our best players are the joint top league goalscorer and the leagues best promising young talent in Adam Armstrong and Harvey Elliott.

Armstrong has thrived in the 4-3-3, scoring 17 goals in half a season and having the season of his career so far. Harvey Elliott has come from Liverpool, the masters of the 4-3-3, and knows the system in the RW and RCM roles like the back of his hand at just 17 years old.

But sure, let's permanently switch back to a 4-2-3-1 or to another old system, all to suit an unfit Bradley Dack. Weigh up the pros and the cons that it would bring along with it and surely the logical answer is to use the system that suits your current best players.

For me we should play the system that gets the best results for Blackburn Rovers.( If that happens to suit our supposed best players all the better) . The one we play at the moment is not doing that.

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Whilst this almost feels like a typical game in which Mowbray pulls a result off just as pressure on him has ramped up, I expect us to be bullied and beaten by a Warnock team with a spine based around some real grafters.

As for system debate, something has to change.

The 4-3-3 seems to invite soft goals and has looked poorer and poorer as the season has gone on.

Added, it will take 2 goals tomorrow just to average a goal scored per game over the last 10 games, so defending the 4-3-3 due to us being top scorers (something like a quarter of these came against 10 men) feels redundant. We see a lot of the ball and create a decent amount of chances, but more often than not the chances are half chances, we also seem to have lost the ability to get it forward quickly and shoot before the defender has a chance to get in to position and block it in recent months. Other sides (Watford, Swansea, Norwich etc) seem to regularly create more nailed on chances to my eye, and find a way to mix it up and beat defences that 'sit in' more regularly, granted I have no data to back that up.

Whatever we do, if we are to even get a sniff of top 6, the defence has to be improve immediately. We then have to pair that with finding a way of getting Travis, Dack, Elliott and Armstrong playing together at the same time. It's a gamble on the fitness of Travis and Dack, but without that gamble I don't think we stand a chance. I would argue developing the 4-2-3-1 looks like a sensible way of doing that on paper. A 3 at the back system would probably allow our attacking players to get in to a shape that best suits them however our defenders would likely get crucified.

Sadly, as has been the problem for years, and looking at some of the goals conceded in recent games against Stoke, Doncaster, Huddersfield, Wednesday and so on, I think it will take more than a change in shape to give us the platform to go and win more games than we draw/lose.

 

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5 hours ago, JoeH said:

Oh come on. When a striker is getting so many open goal chances from 2 yards, you have to acknowledge that the system itself is creating those chances for him. He's matched last seasons goal tally at the half way stage of this season and the major change has been a shift in formation. 

 

5 hours ago, JoeH said:

Bradley Dack isn't any longer our best player. He may become that again, but that's a big maybe. Our best players are the joint top league goalscorer and the leagues best promising young talent in Adam Armstrong and Harvey Elliott.

Armstrong has thrived in the 4-3-3, scoring 17 goals in half a season and having the season of his career so far. Harvey Elliott has come from Liverpool, the masters of the 4-3-3, and knows the system in the RW and RCM roles like the back of his hand at just 17 years old.

But sure, let's permanently switch back to a 4-2-3-1 or to another old system, all to suit an unfit Bradley Dack. Weigh up the pros and the cons that it would bring along with it and surely the logical answer is to use the system that suits your current best players.

Armstrong has been scoring for a year now because he has started to play centrally. Have we been created loads of "open goal chances from 2 yards for him" on the back of playing 433? Have we bollocks.

Dack is unfit but when he is fit he is critical to our team and you have a short memory for implying anything other than that. Elliott is also far less effective in midfield than on the right.

433 has not been any more effective than 4231 but ultimately you are comparing it against the formation when we played a totlaly different way with Danny Graham. If we intend on playing 433 then there was no point giving Dack a new contract. Why not surely play 4231 whereby we can have Armstrong, Dack and Elliott all in their best position? Its not a major difference but it also allows us potentially additional defensive protection from the other 2 midfielders ahead of a creaky defence. 

This idea of replicating Liverpool doesnt sit well either. We dont have the same quality of players, we should come up with our own main way of playing.

Edited by roversfan99
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I normally find some sort of reason to be positive going into a game. But I'm really struggling with this one. 

Boro away, will be well organised and drilled. Something we aren't at the moment. I can't see anything other than a defeat. Hope to god I'm wrong and we do pull a rabbit out of the hat, but I just can't see it. 

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8 hours ago, JoeH said:

Bradley Dack isn't any longer our best player. He may become that again, but that's a big maybe. Our best players are the joint top league goalscorer and the leagues best promising young talent in Adam Armstrong and Harvey Elliott.

Armstrong has thrived in the 4-3-3, scoring 17 goals in half a season and having the season of his career so far. Harvey Elliott has come from Liverpool, the masters of the 4-3-3, and knows the system in the RW and RCM roles like the back of his hand at just 17 years old.

But sure, let's permanently switch back to a 4-2-3-1 or to another old system, all to suit an unfit Bradley Dack. Weigh up the pros and the cons that it would bring along with it and surely the logical answer is to use the system that suits your current best players.

There is the counterpoint though - namely that we have been very crap for a while now using that system.

I think you make the argument well. But I also think the need for a plan B, even if we don't change our plan A beyond a little tinkering, has become increasingly apparent.

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8 hours ago, JoeH said:

Bradley Dack isn't any longer our best player. He may become that again, but that's a big maybe. Our best players are the joint top league goalscorer and the leagues best promising young talent in Adam Armstrong and Harvey Elliott.

Armstrong has thrived in the 4-3-3, scoring 17 goals in half a season and having the season of his career so far. Harvey Elliott has come from Liverpool, the masters of the 4-3-3, and knows the system in the RW and RCM roles like the back of his hand at just 17 years old.

But sure, let's permanently switch back to a 4-2-3-1 or to another old system, all to suit an unfit Bradley Dack. Weigh up the pros and the cons that it would bring along with it and surely the logical answer is to use the system that suits your current best players.

Dack is unfit. He'll be 1 of only 2 genuine goal threats in our team when he's fit again. Elliott coming from Liverpool and being the 'masters of 4-3-3' is fairly irrelevant as it's not working for us any better than 4-2-3-1 did last season. Points-wise I think we've regressed. We might as well play Elliott in Dacks role until Dack is fit. 

Its all a bit moot anyway. Until we get a manager that can keep a clean sheet it doesn't matter what formation we play. I think we play against one on Sunday. 

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Take boro’s squad and rovers squad then swap the managers I’d feel very confident. As it is I fully expect a defeat and more waffle from Tonebola. Injuries 🥱. Defenders 🥱. Journey 🥱. The best result on Sunday isn’t the result but  Moggasarus being put out to grass and Mrs M baking the mother of lemon drizzle cakes to feed the whole of Yarm.

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9 hours ago, JoeH said:

Bradley Dack isn't any longer our best player. He may become that again, but that's a big maybe. Our best players are the joint top league goalscorer and the leagues best promising young talent in Adam Armstrong and Harvey Elliott.

Armstrong has thrived in the 4-3-3, scoring 17 goals in half a season and having the season of his career so far. Harvey Elliott has come from Liverpool, the masters of the 4-3-3, and knows the system in the RW and RCM roles like the back of his hand at just 17 years old.

But sure, let's permanently switch back to a 4-2-3-1 or to another old system, all to suit an unfit Bradley Dack. Weigh up the pros and the cons that it would bring along with it and surely the logical answer is to use the system that suits your current best players.

Whilst I respect your opinion I think you have called this wrong. Bradley Dack is absolutely one of our best players. He's in a group of 4 imo of vital players to us. Kaminski, Trav, Dack and Arma. Dack can fit into a 4-3-3 which I think is the formation we should continue with. We are a better team with Dack than without him

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2 hours ago, matt83 said:

Take boro’s squad and rovers squad then swap the managers I’d feel very confident. As it is I fully expect a defeat and more waffle from Tonebola. Injuries 🥱. Defenders 🥱. Journey 🥱. The best result on Sunday isn’t the result but  Moggasarus being put out to grass and Mrs M baking the mother of lemon drizzle cakes to feed the whole of Yarm.

Its interesting to compare the squads, im not sure there is much in it but Mowbray has had much more time and some of their quality has been upgraded with the management of Warnock.

We have the obvious added goal threat with Armstrong, Dack and Elliott as much as Assombolonga, Akpom, Tavernier and the shrewd signing of Watmore do carry a threat. Behind that, both have steady keepers, there isnt much to seperate the right backs where Warnock has revitalised Dijksteel, McNair has been a revelation having moved to CB and Warnock in general can organise a team much better, he has also changed the fortunes of Bola who was a figure of mockery before Warnock came in. Id also much rather play against our midfield compared to the know how of Saville, Howson and Morsy.

1 hour ago, Roverinbelfast said:

Whilst I respect your opinion I think you have called this wrong. Bradley Dack is absolutely one of our best players. He's in a group of 4 imo of vital players to us. Kaminski, Trav, Dack and Arma. Dack can fit into a 4-3-3 which I think is the formation we should continue with. We are a better team with Dack than without him

He certainly is one of our best players but I still dont see the desire to stick with the 433. It hasnt improved us and a fairly small change allows Dack to play in his natural position behind Armstrong.

Edited by roversfan99
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I’m working so will miss this and I’m genuinely not arsed. Feels horrible to type that but it’s the truth. I’m going a boring 0-0 with Tony prattling on about it being a hard place to come and it’s another point on the bag blah blah

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11 hours ago, JoeH said:

Bradley Dack isn't any longer our best player. He may become that again, but that's a big maybe. Our best players are the joint top league goalscorer and the leagues best promising young talent in Adam Armstrong and Harvey Elliott.

Armstrong has thrived in the 4-3-3, scoring 17 goals in half a season and having the season of his career so far. Harvey Elliott has come from Liverpool, the masters of the 4-3-3, and knows the system in the RW and RCM roles like the back of his hand at just 17 years old.

But sure, let's permanently switch back to a 4-2-3-1 or to another old system, all to suit an unfit Bradley Dack. Weigh up the pros and the cons that it would bring along with it and surely the logical answer is to use the system that suits your current best players.

So 4-3-3 allegedly suits Armstrong and Elliott, what about the other 9 players? Because we look worse in defence and midfield, and we’ve certainly not improved as a team year on year, or year on 2year. This is despite loaning what you’re calling our best / 2nd best player as well as improving at GK and not selling anybody.

When I weigh up the pros and cons I see more benefit to a 4231 than a 433 with our current team and I think the last 3 years show that, despite spending more money, not selling anyone, getting in players on loan we’re regressing in the league on previous years. 
If you genuinely think it’s working and you’re all in favour of 433 I have to question if you’ve actually been watching for the last 2 months as it’s frankly been pathetic.

I honestly can’t remember the last time we dominated in midfield (against 11 players) - maybe the Derby match? All well and good against 10 men Wycombe and Coventry.

The system clearly doesn’t work, or it doesn’t work with the players he’s using (half fit Travis and a carthorse in Johnson). 

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