Brockhall STC - planning permission application ?

[RevidgeBlue]

1 hour ago, only2garners said:

Actually it is my opinion Simon.

I suspect any architect worth his fees can draw up a plan to fill a given plot of land with a quick plan as to how many houses you can fit on it. They will probably have a bit of software that can knock it out in minutes. It's a lot different to design a one-off building from scratch. There will be significant costs in producing the detailed building design. The houses on the other hand would I assume be designed and developed by whoever buys the land and builds them.

I have no idea why anyone wold be more likely to support the plans if they had been presented with some fancy design drawings now. The councils know what a football training building looks like, more or less, as there are already two on site. Whilst what goes inside the new one might very well be more up to date I doubt the outside will look significantly dfferent.

What is absolutely clear is that this is a proof of concept application. It could very easily be thrown out by both councils at the first attempt. Even if they get a green light to go to the next stage it will take a very long time to get full planning permission, I would expect years and there will still be no guarantees of success.

I would doubt that even the proof of concept will be sorted before the councils go into purdah ahead of the May elections.

I honestly don't know how to reply to that John, the amount of time it will take to come to fruition is completely irrelevant.

A bad idea or an outright scam (take your pick) is still a bad idea or an outright scam if it doesn't come to light until a few years later.

[RevidgeBlue]

10 hours ago, renrag said:

Yeah! My front gate looks tired, so I’ll get the house rebuilt to sort it

Brilliant analogy, if I may flesh out the detail of the entire project a bit:

"My gate is starting to look a bit tired and needs a new coat of varnish and a couple of hinges.

However, this bloke I know has suggested that instead  if I knock down my house, he'll build me a smaller one and throw in a new gate instead.

I'll end up with a house half the size of the old one and may even have to contribute a considerable amount of money towards the project. 

I don't even know what the new gate will do that the old one wouldn't. The bloke says however the gate will look great and be "state of the art". 

I think I trust him, so hey ho we'll give it a go!"

[Roverthechimp]

16 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Brilliant analogy, if I may flesh out the detail of the entire project a bit:

"My gate is starting to look a bit tired and needs a new coat of varnish and a couple of hinges.

However, this bloke I know has suggested that instead  if I knock down my house, he'll build me a smaller one and throw in a new gate instead.

I'll end up with a house half the size of the old one and may even have to contribute a considerable amount of money towards the project. 

I don't even know what the new gate will do that the old one wouldn't. The bloke says however the gate will look great and be "state of the art". 

I think I trust him, so hey ho we'll give it a go!"

More concerning is what the new one won't do that the old one does...

[Roverthechimp]

Anyone hazard a serious guess at what typical land procurement costs are for this kind of housing project? (Either as a cash figure or typical percentage of budget)

[RevidgeBlue]

29 minutes ago, Roverthechimp said:

More concerning is what the new one won't do that the old one does...

Yes, I forgot to put that in. Because the shiny looking gate is half the size of the original as well it probably won't be fit for it's original purpose of stopping next door's dog from jumping over and chewing up my flower bed!

(Or in Rovers' case, maintaining Cat 1 Academy Status)

Edited March 11, 2021 by RevidgeBlue

[Ozz]

45 minutes ago, Roverthechimp said:

Anyone hazard a serious guess at what typical land procurement costs are for this kind of housing project? (Either as a cash figure or typical percentage of budget)

If you mean what is the likely sale price of the land you are looking at circa £15 million. 

[RevidgeBlue]

5 minutes ago, Ozz said:

If you mean what is the likely sale price of the land you are looking at circa £15 million. 

Would that be the case as soon as the initial screening applications were passed or only some years down the line after full planning permission was granted?

[Ozz]

Assuming that the sale went ahead, and I am far from convinced it will, if Rovers got MORE than the book value ( not sure what it is currently) but the profit would certainly help with FFP

https://www.sheffieldwednesday.news/news/multi-million-pound-sale-should-put-wednesday-in-clear-regarding-ffp-expert/

 

[Ozz]

Some further interesting reading from Mel Morris on the subject of the sale of assets  and wider issues on cash flow in a Championship club. 

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/pride-park-sale-mel-morris-3290644

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

Is,

26 minutes ago, Ozz said:

Assuming that the sale went ahead, and I am far from convinced it will, if Rovers got MORE than the book value ( not sure what it is currently) but the profit would certainly help with FFP

https://www.sheffieldwednesday.news/news/multi-million-pound-sale-should-put-wednesday-in-clear-regarding-ffp-expert/

 

Is the Trust opposing the Brockhall  development? 

[Gone to seed]

16 hours ago, Leonard Venkhater said:

Reclaim the Rovers...I love that....I will see if my friend can design me a T-shirt!

Sign me up for one of those! Heck, sign me up for 5 in sizes to fit me, my 2 grown up sons and 2  little daughters !

[Gone to seed]

10 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

I absolutely despair. To summarise to date:

- Months of careful planning must have gone on on the quiet ascertaining the maximum potential of the proposed housing development site.

- the screening application has been sneaked in under the radar with zero consultation of either fans or local residents

- Seemingly there has been no consideration given to simply upgrading the existing training  facilities nor has this even been costed up

- the level of thought and planning that has gone into a new training centre extends to a white or red oblong superimposed onto a Google Earth map.

- to reinforce this the specification for the new training centre on the screening application  has simply been copied off that of the existing  STC and the screening application refers to the proposed new build being of "a similar scale".

- Waggott has no idea whatsoever how much the new training centre would cost.

- we have no specific confirmation the owners would meet any shortfall if needed.

- Waggott has no idea if we could configure the pitches outside on a limited space or provide the facilities required inside a single facility the size of the STC to meet existing Cat 1 Academy requirements.

- There is the obvious Coventry connection where the same protagonists attempted to sell their training ground for development.

-Waggott has told the Fans Trust that the owners have categorically NOT asked  him to sell land to raise money

- The people at Coventry even gave exactly the same non benefit for justifying the scheme as they have done here "being under the same roof".

- Neither the manager nor Waggott are able to cite one genuine advantage to the Club arising out of this scheme out or cite one specific example of how the new facilities would be better than the existing ones.

Yet some people still seem to think it could be a good idea! What more evidence do you need?

 

 

That is what I would call a blistering dismembering of a flawed plan being peddled by crooks. BRAVO, Rev, BRAVO!

 

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by WIR Second Coming

[Ozz]

55 minutes ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

Is,

Is the Trust opposing the Brockhall  development? 

Posting personally, as a co founder of the supporters Trust, and only ever present still serving member of the Trust board,   Hell yeah.

[arbitro]

2 hours ago, Ozz said:

Assuming that the sale went ahead, and I am far from convinced it will, if Rovers got MORE than the book value ( not sure what it is currently) but the profit would certainly help with FFP

https://www.sheffieldwednesday.news/news/multi-million-pound-sale-should-put-wednesday-in-clear-regarding-ffp-expert/

 

Waggott actually said that the money brought in by the sale of the STC would all be used in the Academy development and was at pains to point out that the owners may need to be approached for more money if needed. I personally wouldn't trust him and this could be a tactic to cover anything illicit from him and his cohorts but for me it added to the mystique of why they are doing it. The cost, upheaval and many other things massively outweigh the benefits he spoke of which are flimsy at best.

[Dreams of 1995]

On the subject of drawings for training facilities and houses O2g is right in that the cost to produce them site plans for the housing development would be minimal in comparison to the cost of design drawings for the training centre. Although they could have at least knocked up a concept design as opposed to the red box we have.

Although the key is in the 'inclusions' - the concept for the training facility does not match up to the spec of what we have currently. It is a downgrade, simple as that.

[tomphil]

If you were genuinely going down the route of an all in one state of the art upgrade you'd have an idea of what you actually want. You'd then be looking at a cost and if it was really feasible to do it. Then you'd be after funding guarantees for any possible shortfall before you went ahead.

This is back of the fag packet stuff here it's crazy and a plain money grabbing attempt. Get PP, get it flogged, get the money in then see where we are.

Still nobody has come up with an explanation of why now, why embark on this right at this moment. What is the real driving issue ?

 sack the effing lot of them now before anymore pants get pulled down. If the fact schemes like this have been attempted at their other clubs doesn't wave a serious red flag i don't know what does.

 

[only2garners]

12 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

I honestly don't know how to reply to that John, the amount of time it will take to come to fruition is completely irrelevant.

Simon - my first post was responding to someone asking why there are no detailed plans for the new training centre and I just went on to outline my view that the project is years from any completion and may not happen at all. It wasn't a comment one way or the other on the project's desirability.

[arbitro]

Probably the aspect of all this that irks me most is who the f*** does Waggott think he is. He has been pretty much a disaster in his tenure with a litany of failure in almost everything he has done. He has imposed two price increases on loyal fans, closed sections of the ground, introduced an unfair levy on match day tickets and managed to decrease the supporter base amongst others Trying to blag us with this by talking about 'improvement' is an insult to us all, even the ones who think it's going to benefit Rovers. I would ask anyone who agrees with Waggott to list the potential improvements for everybody to see. So far he has come up with 'all on one site' and 'the manager can walk across a pitch or two to watch the kids train'.

The ideal scenario is that this project crashes and burns and Waggott, out of embarrassment leaves and goes back to Gillingham or whichever backwater club will have him.

[Mattyblue]

Exactly that arbito. I know I’m being naive in thinking we are ‘the club’, that it is part of all of us. But to see these here today, gone tomorrow low rent carpet baggers having the brass neck to dismantle our top notch infrastructure just makes me feel sick

[Dreams of 1995]

If Tony Mowbray can't be arsed to walk across to the junior training centre can we invest in a golf buggy to get him from one site to the next?

[Ulrich]

4 hours ago, WIR Second Coming said:

Sign me up for one of those! Heck, sign me up for 5 in sizes to fit me, my 2 grown up sons and 2  little daughters !

Is the wife a claret lover?

Great mothers day present

[Gone to seed]

No, Mrs WIR indulges me for two things, my love of Rovers and my penchant for old Volvos 🙂 She is football agnostic, having been born in Lincoln and, as a Vicar's daughter (ooer missus!) moved around many times whilst growing up, so never forming any strong affinity towards any area.

I've just checked too, and can confirm only 5 fingers on each hand 🙂

She does think the Brockhall plans stink though!

[tomphil]

What about all the drones they've bought and staff to fly them as well as the video scouting offices and staff. You know all that stuff from the last round of bullshitting. where is all that going to go in the new setup ?

[JHRover]

15 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

If Tony Mowbray can't be arsed to walk across to the junior training centre can we invest in a golf buggy to get him from one site to the next?

A one way National Express ticket to Teesside would be even cheaper and more beneficial. 

[tomphil]

4 minutes ago, renrag said:

Maybe, just maybe, the three are hoping to make a quick buck before the axe falls. If that’s the case let’s hope the chop comes before this progresses any further.

I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt on that one for now. I just think they keep coming up with bits to add to this 'journey' they've blagged the owners with. It's all in the name of stringing it out as long as possible to cover the fact at first team level we'll keep falling short.

In terms of Waggot and Venus though there are too many parallels with stuff before for it not to whiff a bit. He's got multiple selling points on this one here though to cover over the cash grab for the club.

And of course these things never ever pass without a set of people in the middle making a few quid.