Brockhall STC - planning permission application ?

[Herbie6590]

9 hours ago, 47er said:

But surely people know what any audit will cover and whether the new reduced Brockhall can contain all the necessary features. Not asking for an official response from the FA or whoever decides these things. Simply, will the "new" Brockhall have all the features necessary for Cat A status before we knock it down.

Sunderland’s initial application was rejected & they revised their approach when they re-applied. I guess it’s like preparing for a health inspection in a restaurant....you know what could be checked, but if you don’t prove it, you don’t get the accreditation.

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/sunderland-academy-category-one-reid-17710283

 

 

[Blue blood]

7 hours ago, Ben Frost said:

 

But let's play devil's advocate for a minute and imagine a scenario where RVBC ignore the lack of infrastructure, inadequate roads etc, and go after the council tax revenue from some new houses, so this actually goes to the next stage. 

That would then be the time to study the detailed plans for the new Training Centre which would inevitably follow. It would also be the right time to raise objections if those plans didn't come up to scratch.

The club is clearly and publicly committing to Category 1. Steve Waggott in the Fans Forum minutes says "the most important criterion for the development was that Category 1 status for the Academy must be retained". The website is even clearer "we are 100% committed" (screenshot) 

The club has achieved and then retained Category 1 ever since the Elite Player Performance Plan was introduced in 2012. That has taken a lot of money and even more hard work.

It also means that the relevant staff at BRFC know exactly what is required to maintain Category 1, and are very proud that Rovers continue to aspire to it and retain it. That's not achieved at CEO or Board level, that's people lower down the admin structure and more particularly the Academy management. 

So personally I don't agree with the speculation that Category 1 can't be done on the new site even if combined with the Senior facility, it will have been discussed and scoped with the people who have kept the club Cat 1 for the last 9 years.

There ends playing devil's advocate. But as above, the only way this moves forward is if RBVC chase the cash above looking after their residents in Brockhall. 

I think if any club knows that what is said and what is done are two different things then it is us. So many examples to chose from during the last 10 years. 

And that alone highlights a key point - saying something does not make it true. I have used the example of saying I will be a Prem footballer and am totally committed to that. I may even be totally committed to it, but that doesn't make it true or more likely.

Before we get into the issue of thinking you can't trust anything anyone says, one huge qualifying factor is looking at the surrounding evidence of what is said. Is the person trustworthy? Does the evidence support what is being said? Is what they are saying plausible? They are the key tests - plausibility and character of those speaking. 

Looking first at the plausibility. There is a Cat 1 criteria list which gives a good indication of what is needed. We're basically trying to meet these with half the space. Is that likely, is that plausible, given the criteria? I struggle to see how. 

Now this doesn't mean it isn't possible but it is a concern. What makes it more concerning is the club have at no point suggested how it will be possible. If it were, and given on the face of it it seems unlikely, you would have thought that they would have reassured us about how it were possible. As it is all we have had are bold statements of commitment without any supporting evidence as to why. This massively dents its plausibility. No evidence = little plausibility.

Let's move onto the character aspect. Sadly this is somewhat lacking too. From the past history of all those involved - neglect by Venkys and the trio's antics at Coventry - there doesn't seem to be much trustworthiness there. And to make matters worse the nature of how the plans were released also suggests that they were trying to sneak it through. All in all looking at the characters involved does not inspire any level of trust. 

So until one of these criteria starts to be met I don't think we can or should have any faith in this scheme. In fact if it were your own personal land or house at stake i'm certain very few people would trust in similarly dubious circumstances. 

Honestly the evidence all stacks up and not in a good way. I do wonder how it can be ignored for a few bold statements with nothing backing them up. 

[tomphil]

As per one of the above posts regarding the Academy and what is and isn't done lower down . What is done at CEO and boardroom level is the finance and that's where a lot of the concern lies.

It's ok trying to say this happens at this stage and that won't happen until this is ticked off etc.   The real worry is plans get passed, land gets sold then the numbers for what they claim to want to build don't stack up so it has to be downgraded.  Or even worse they start the work then find they can't fund it all.

I really don't see how anyone wouldn't have serious concerns on that without a detailed plan being put forwards and costings from the off. Given the nature of what we've seen under this ownership, look at the ground and pitch for a start.

Once a sale goes through, the money comes in then the numbers start getting shuffled at boardroom level between here and India is when the fun will really start.

I don't care a jot what Waggot says because if he retires or is sacked anytime in the near future it renders his words meaningless. This is a guy who won't even hear of criticism of his football manager despite the alarming slumps we keep seeing. 

I'm absolutely certain that pair would sit there and watch us slide to relegation and do nothing if it meant protecting their own interests. Guys just a salesman at the end of the day he isn't a Blackburn Rovers fan.

Edited March 17, 2021 by tomphil

[47er]

30 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

There is a Cat 1 criteria list which gives a good indication of what is needed. We're basically trying to meet these with half the space. Is that likely, is that plausible, given the criteria? I struggle to see how. 

This is the point Herbie6590, given the criteria, is it likely we can meet them with a complex reduced by half?

Has the club satisfied itself on this point or will it plough on anyway to get its hands on the dosh?

I'll be honest and say I don't trust those in charge to honour Jack's legacy. After all, if they had any sympathies that way they would not be selling the land in the first place would they? Jack gave it to the club, I'm sure he wouldn't have expected his successors to sell half of it.

[RevidgeBlue]

8 hours ago, Ben Frost said:

It's not really clear who is guilty of being silent or who should be hanging their heads. Or why you are throwing various forms of the "F" word into every post you make in this thread. 

Personally I expect this whole thing to fall over at the first hurdle, ie these speculative applications for proof of concept will fail.

But let's play devil's advocate for a minute and imagine a scenario where RVBC ignore the lack of infrastructure, inadequate roads etc, and go after the council tax revenue from some new houses, so this actually goes to the next stage. 

That would then be the time to study the detailed plans for the new Training Centre which would inevitably follow. It would also be the right time to raise objections if those plans didn't come up to scratch.

The club is clearly and publicly committing to Category 1. Steve Waggott in the Fans Forum minutes says "the most important criterion for the development was that Category 1 status for the Academy must be retained". The website is even clearer "we are 100% committed" (screenshot) 

The club has achieved and then retained Category 1 ever since the Elite Player Performance Plan was introduced in 2012. That has taken a lot of money and even more hard work.

It also means that the relevant staff at BRFC know exactly what is required to maintain Category 1, and are very proud that Rovers continue to aspire to it and retain it. That's not achieved at CEO or Board level, that's people lower down the admin structure and more particularly the Academy management. 

So personally I don't agree with the speculation that Category 1 can't be done on the new site even if combined with the Senior facility, it will have been discussed and scoped with the people who have kept the club Cat 1 for the last 9 years.

There ends playing devil's advocate. But as above, the only way this moves forward is if RBVC chase the cash above looking after their residents in Brockhall. 

Good grief.

Waggott can shed crocodile tears all he likes about how important Cat 1 status is to him (a week after nearly everyone kicked off about it btw).

However he is driving a move to a new facility and site both roughly half the combined size of our existing ones that would seem on perusal of the Cat 1 regulations to be  extremely unlikely to meet the requirements for a variety of reasons.

That would tend to suggest that despite what he claims it isn't that important to him at all!

[Mattyblue]

In all likelihood Waggott will have departed the scene by the time any new Cat 1 application is put in (if they even bother), so he can make as many public ‘commitments’ as he likes...

[Herbie6590]

2 hours ago, 47er said:

This is the point Herbie6590, given the criteria, is it likely we can meet them with a complex reduced by half?

Has the club satisfied itself on this point or will it plough on anyway to get its hands on the dosh?

I'll be honest and say I don't trust those in charge to honour Jack's legacy. After all, if they had any sympathies that way they would not be selling the land in the first place would they? Jack gave it to the club, I'm sure he wouldn't have expected his successors to sell half of it.

I agree - my posting of the Sunderland stuff was to demonstrate that even if you know what will be checked, approval isn’t a given, it has to be earned by a robust evidence trail.
Look at what they had to do after being rejected...it’s an exhaustive process.

[JHRover]

It will be the easiest trick in history to push this through, end up with everyone together on the bottom site and then a couple of years later we lose Cat A status blaming ever increasing costs, more stringent requirements, rules that favour the big rich clubs, poor us, we've done all we can. Unfortunately you can't magic acres of land out of thin air so when its gone, its gone.

Any complaints from fans will fall on deaf ears. The Coventry 3 will be long gone by then and Venky's will be their usual distant selves. I reckon an atom bomb could drop on Ewood and they wouldn't know about it until months down the line.

Then a quick glance at the buffoons on Facebook happily accepting everything then any complaints will be minimal. Half of the matchday going fans will not even know what or where Brockhall is never mind Category A academy status and what we stand to lose.

Little wonder the likes of Waggott and others have the confidence to give it a shot.

 

[funny-old-game]

Anyone have contact details for Venkys (Glen Mullen maybe?) l know it's long shot but let them know their being done over again (or they sanctioned?). If we sit on our hands as the majority did during then Anderson/Kean hyst it's just another nail in the clubs coffin!

[MarkBRFC]

I'm not convinced venkys know there own contact details never mind anyone else being able to get hold of them.

[funny-old-game]

1 hour ago, MarkBRFC said:

I'm not convinced venkys know there own contact details never mind anyone else being able to get hold of them.

😂👍

[1864roverite]

There are many with different views and opinions on this subject. I have mine.

Let me just say that this is not the place to begin the forthcoming fight with waggott and co, it’s no good mincing around chewing fat on a message board you need a bigger platform otherwise it’s falling on deaf ears!

[JHRover]

https://www.stanleytrust.co.uk/5m-stanley-sports-hub-expansion-vision-revealed/

Meanwhile, over in Accy, more new facilities on the way.

Why are we the only club and area downsizing and downscaling?

[Richard Oakley]

18 minutes ago, 1864roverite said:

There are many with different views and opinions on this subject. I have mine.

Let me just say that this is not the place to begin the forthcoming fight with waggott and co, it’s no good mincing around chewing fat on a message board you need a bigger platform otherwise it’s falling on deaf ears!

Thus speaks the club plant!

This is the fight to pick with Waggott. He's form for this at previous clubs (plural) and they're suffering because of him.

[funny-old-game]

46 minutes ago, Richard Oakley said:

Thus speaks the club plant!

This is the fight to pick with Waggott. He's form for this at previous clubs (plural) and they're suffering because of him.

Who's that rat/rats then, name them I would if I know or is it iyo?

[HowieFive0]

48 minutes ago, JHRover said:

https://www.stanleytrust.co.uk/5m-stanley-sports-hub-expansion-vision-revealed/

Meanwhile, over in Accy, more new facilities on the way.

Why are we the only club and area downsizing and downscaling?

Yes but for  Hyndburn community to use . Grass roots football etc . Not for the Club.

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, Richard Oakley said:

Thus speaks the club plant!

This is the fight to pick with Waggott. He's form for this at previous clubs (plural) and they're suffering because of him.

Very much doubt he's one of 'the plants' to be honest.

[tomphil]

2 minutes ago, renrag said:

Hope this link works as I’m a bit of a dinosaur on this
 

http://www.walmsleywilkinson.com/news-and-insights/interviews/inspiring-leaders-Steve-waggott-ceo- blackburn-rovers/

What a load of rubbish especially the words he uses to describe himself

Nice one.

Posted some of this a while ago and after reading it the picture was clearer about the price rises, cutbacks and ground capacity reduction.

Squeeze what you have is his mantra, only it doesn't seem to apply to the football side of it where millions have still and are still being wasted.

[MarkBRFC]

Quote

 

What’s next for you and Blackburn Rovers?

The initial plan was to bring stability and steady growth to the organisation. When I came in, they had been relegated, so we needed to get out of League One. We have very supportive owners and we achieved promotion at the first attempt. We had a solid season in the Championship which was the aim of last season. This season we aim to move through the gears, but in a sensible way, not to slam it from first into overdrive and crunch the gearbox too much, just take it smoothly through and keep building up the players side and restructuring the club, keep building the club back to where it should be. The reality though is that we are a small mill town club and we are up against big city clubs from Nottingham, Birmingham and London. However, the legacy of the club, the people inside the club and many other things, give us a value-add which will help us to close the gap on others. We have a great manager in Tony Mowbray, a strong team, a decent training ground, a very good academy structure supported by good administrative and operational functions.

We are trying to build the platform for future success both on and off the pitch so that when my time at Blackburn Rovers comes to an end, I will have left the Club in a better place than I came in.

 

This is the last question and answer on that interview.

[Mattyblue]

Only under this very cosy set up would TM be ‘great’ and Brockhall merely ‘decent’...

[oldjamfan1]

1 hour ago, tomphil said:

Very much doubt he's one of 'the plants' to be honest.

He 100% isn't

[tomphil]

4 minutes ago, oldjamfan1 said:

He 100% isn't

Aye and he's been around a lot longer than his accuser !

[Richard Oakley]

7 minutes ago, tomphil said:

Aye and he's been around a lot longer than his accuser !

I've certainly not been around since 1864. I judge him on his posts, not on the length of time he's been posting and being defended by the likes of oldjamfan1 or you is no proof he isn't.

[tomphil]

Just now, Richard Oakley said:

I've certainly not been around since 1864. I judge him on his posts, not on the length of time he's been posting and being defended by the likes of oldjamfan1 or you is no proof he isn't.

Except quite a few on here know him but even if you're judging him on his posts i can't see where plant comes into it.  He's often been known to take some middle ground down the years but he's also a critic when needed.

There's quite a few others who'd get the finger justifiably pointed at them before him.

[Richard Oakley]

1 minute ago, tomphil said:

Except quite a few on here know him but even if you're judging him on his posts i can't see where plant comes into it.  He's often been known to take some middle ground down the years but he's also a critic when needed.

There's quite a few others who'd get the finger justifiably pointed at them before him.

He's giving Waggott a free run on this issue and there's no way that should  be happening.