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1 hour ago, Sparks Rover said:

Most of these came to us as scholars.  My view is that the scouting pre U16s is poor.

Into the semi-finals of the Premier League U17’s Cup...

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Fast forwards 12 months.... 'We lost the quality of Holtby and the goals of Armstrong last summer along with the regular right back and the experience of Johnson.  It's a sad day for the club but

The problem with keeping Bennett is that although he's versatile he's just not very good at all the things he's versatile at. Get rid.

The one and only summer transfer that needs to be made is Tony Mowbray and Mark Venus up the road. 

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5 hours ago, Mike E said:

We've sold £13m worth of academy player since Jones tbf. Not bad considering the number of players in our first team, plus it's running self-sufficient when accounting for the £1.9m grant per year.

£1.1m/year cost x 10 = £11m

£13m - £11m = £2m profit.

All without including the £17m Jones money.

How do we get to 13 million?

I can think of Hanley for 5 million, Raya for 3. The lad who went to Leicester for 1. Then a bunch that sold in the 500k or less region - O'Connell, the youth keeper we sold (to Liverpool? Everton?), Mahoney...think there might be one or two more I'm forgetting.

Are we counting Olsson, is that why? Seen him mentioned a few times here. I guess technically he counts, but he was a few months off being 18 when we signed him halfway through the season. I think we paid a fee, and he made his debut the next season, so tbh it seems a bit generous. We hardly 'made' him.

I think people should keep in mind that in the past when we brought through all the players mentioned, we could offer them a direct route to Premiership football. This not only makes it harder to attract youngsters, but it means we can't develop them with Premiership games when we give them a chance. This also reduces the profile of said players, meaning that when they sell, they sell for less than players who have 5-10 Prem games under their belts. It also means the calibre of loan we can get them is at a lower level because of this perception. Some pretty average youngsters get a shot in the Championship, and I'm sure at times this is due to perception. How often do Championship sides borrow youngsters from other Championship academies? That's not just down to academy status. I could be wrong but I don't think Derby send youth players on loan within the Championship and they have a top academy too. Our youngsters of course need to break into our first team to get exposure at this level.

Also, I think people are forgetting that a lot of these still have time on their hands, whilst we are looking at the ones from yesteryear when their careers are over or nearly over. 

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6 hours ago, bluebruce said:

How do we get to 13 million?

I can think of Hanley for 5 million, Raya for 3. The lad who went to Leicester for 1. Then a bunch that sold in the 500k or less region - O'Connell, the youth keeper we sold (to Liverpool? Everton?), Mahoney...think there might be one or two more I'm forgetting.

Are we counting Olsson, is that why? Seen him mentioned a few times here. I guess technically he counts, but he was a few months off being 18 when we signed him halfway through the season. I think we paid a fee, and he made his debut the next season, so tbh it seems a bit generous. We hardly 'made' him.

I think people should keep in mind that in the past when we brought through all the players mentioned, we could offer them a direct route to Premiership football. This not only makes it harder to attract youngsters, but it means we can't develop them with Premiership games when we give them a chance. This also reduces the profile of said players, meaning that when they sell, they sell for less than players who have 5-10 Prem games under their belts. It also means the calibre of loan we can get them is at a lower level because of this perception. Some pretty average youngsters get a shot in the Championship, and I'm sure at times this is due to perception. How often do Championship sides borrow youngsters from other Championship academies? That's not just down to academy status. I could be wrong but I don't think Derby send youth players on loan within the Championship and they have a top academy too. Our youngsters of course need to break into our first team to get exposure at this level.

Also, I think people are forgetting that a lot of these still have time on their hands, whilst we are looking at the ones from yesteryear when their careers are over or nearly over. 

Jones £17m

Hanley £6m

Olsson £3m

Raya £3m

Several also left for a couple of £100k, plus tribunals etc, so rounded to £1m for those.

Personally view anyone who played for the u18s as having 'come through' our academy.

Edited by Mike E
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10 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

They wouldnt get into the teams near the top of the league.

Silly comment. Barnsley are near the top because of their manager. We are nearer the bottom because of our manager. Under a better manager we could easily be in Barnsley's position. Our Academy lads would then, by definition, be getting in a team near the top of the league.

You think Lenihan, Travis, JRC, Nyambe etc etc wouldn't get in Barnsley's team? I think you're way off the mark there. 

And the other teams at the top are full of players bought when those teams were in the Prem, so it's hardly a fair comparison, unless you are saying we should be producing lots of Prem-quality players worth tens of millions from our Academy? 

The simple facts are we are producing a lot of good Championship players who under a better manager would be a lot higher in the table. As ever, the problems lies with the manager, not with the quality of the players. 

Our Academy is phenomenal at producing players good enough for the league we are in. Nobody else is doing it. And there are a few more where they came from.

Anyway carry on lads, you are doing Waggotts work for him, deriding the Academy and the value of Cat 1, and guaranteeing he has ready-made arguments to go to Cat 2, or whatever, when all we'll produce is a Jason Lowe every 4 years and fuck all else.

Careful what you wish for. 

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8 hours ago, JoeH said:

Into the semi-finals of the Premier League U17’s Cup...

Jesus man did I not say U16.  Pre scholarship. U17s are scholars. 🙄

Thought you knew about all this?

Edited by Sparks Rover
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The whole Academy and Development squads have a defined way of playing, each individual knows the system and style of play

As a team there success is down to a cohesive plan and have beaten sides who have better individuals.

Whilst retaining Cat 1 status, we live with what we can develop or pick up from the Premier League cast offs.

 

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If as it seems that we will be keeping Mowbray, Armstrong is likely to leave and we dont have any money, I suspect we will be favourites for relegation rather than promotion next season. But lets be thankful we arent Bury im sure the rhetoric will be next season.

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10 hours ago, Ulrich said:

Historically our academy hasn't been all that good. Before Jones etc who do we produce? I'd honestly like to see a complete club shake up, top to toe, board, 1st team and academy, as I think we can do much better than we have to date.

Whilst we've never produced players of the ability of say a West Ham or Southampton. You go back over time as well as Jones we have produced the likes of Damien Duff, David Dunn, Jason Wilcox, James Beattie, Damien Johnson, Martin Taylor, Junior Hoilett, Martin Olsson. All of those at the very least had decent Premiership careers. But the last 10 years the academy hasn't produced a single player of the standard of any of those, look at the current players in our first team who have come through from the clubs academy it's hard to imagine any of them having even moderately successful top flight careers.

10 hours ago, Mike E said:

When were they sold? The discussion was the sustainability of the academy as much as whether they played or not. If it is generating profit (and it has), it is sustainable.

I'm asking why the academy hasn't been able to produced anything better than mid table of the Championship players in the last decade.  Is the recruitment wrong? Is the coaching not right? Is there too much competition locally? Is there a lack of talent locally? Are we not casting our net wide enough? 

The players you've named came through the academy system over a decade ago. 

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Just now, Ewood Ace said:

Whilst we've never produced players of the ability of say a West Ham or Southampton. You go back over time as well as Jones we have produced the likes of Damien Duff, David Dunn, Jason Wilcox, James Beattie, Damien Johnson, Martin Taylor, Junior Hoilett, Martin Olsson. All of those at the very least had decent Premiership careers. But the last 10 years the academy hasn't produced a single player of the standard of any of those, look at the current players in our first team who have come through from the clubs academy it's hard to imagine any of them having even moderately successful top flight careers.

I'm asking why the academy hasn't been able to produced anything better than mid table of the Championship players in the last decade.  Is the recruitment wrong? Is the coaching not right? Is there too much competition locally? Is there a lack of talent locally? Are we not casting our net wide enough? 

The players you've named came through the academy system over a decade ago. 

Fair enough question. I suspect a part of it is the hoovering up of talent by the big clubs from around 2005, then other academies get their cast-offs.

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1 hour ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

Silly comment. Barnsley are near the top because of their manager. We are nearer the bottom because of our manager. Under a better manager we could easily be in Barnsley's position. Our Academy lads would then, by definition, be getting in a team near the top of the league.

You think Lenihan, Travis, JRC, Nyambe etc etc wouldn't get in Barnsley's team? I think you're way off the mark there. 

And the other teams at the top are full of players bought when those teams were in the Prem, so it's hardly a fair comparison, unless you are saying we should be producing lots of Prem-quality players worth tens of millions from our Academy? 

The simple facts are we are producing a lot of good Championship players who under a better manager would be a lot higher in the table. As ever, the problems lies with the manager, not with the quality of the players. 

Our Academy is phenomenal at producing players good enough for the league we are in. Nobody else is doing it. And there are a few more where they came from.

Anyway carry on lads, you are doing Waggotts work for him, deriding the Academy and the value of Cat 1, and guaranteeing he has ready-made arguments to go to Cat 2, or whatever, when all we'll produce is a Jason Lowe every 4 years and fuck all else.

Careful what you wish for. 

I have not even slightly implied that we should do anything but remain Category 1 so not sure why this is aimed at me.

I dont subscribe to the idea that we have lots of quality in the team and are underachieving massively because of the manager, im not saying we couldnt or shouldnt aim higher or that the manager isnt underachieving but his main flaw is that with competitive resources and plenty of time he has assembled a rather underwhelming squad of players.

Previous comments cited examples of Bellingham, Watkins etc as big money sales and in fact I pointed out that the job of the academy isnt just to bring through gems to be sold for multi millions which it isnt necessarily for a while, but to have graduates regularly in the squad and/or the team even if they arent stand out players as that is of great benefit financially. Lenihan and Nyambe came through quite a few years ago now and for me are probably the main 2 assets from the current pack but even if their contractual situations had been managed anything but negligently, they wouldnt demand huge fees or attract Premier League interest. 

There is a lot of repeated snobbery towards Barnsley, they are overachieving IMO based on the quality of their squad but I dont think ours is necessarily better, Barnsley have some really good players for this level in Styles, Helik, Mowatt, Woodrow, Dike etc so whilst some might make their team, certainly not all of them would. I also think very few of them would make the teams of those around Barnsley too, same with Derbys youngsters, surely its logical to suggest that youngsters will get even more chances in otherwise fairly poor squads?

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53 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

If as it seems that we will be keeping Mowbray, Armstrong is likely to leave and we dont have any money, I suspect we will be favourites for relegation rather than promotion next season. But lets be thankful we arent Bury im sure the rhetoric will be next season.

Any resemblance to the close season of 2016 is entirely.........

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2 hours ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

Silly comment. Barnsley are near the top because of their manager. We are nearer the bottom because of our manager. Under a better manager we could easily be in Barnsley's position. Our Academy lads would then, by definition, be getting in a team near the top of the league.

You think Lenihan, Travis, JRC, Nyambe etc etc wouldn't get in Barnsley's team? I think you're way off the mark there. 

Nyambe would although it is rather ironic that he can't get in our team. The other 3 at the moment would not. 

2 hours ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

And the other teams at the top are full of players bought when those teams were in the Prem, so it's hardly a fair comparison, unless you are saying we should be producing lots of Prem-quality players worth tens of millions from our Academy? 

Reading don't have players bought when they were a Premiership team and they also have a fair few academy players in their team. Brentford have never been a Premiership team and not many of Swansea's team have come from when they were in the Premiership. Swansea have also made £26 Million by selling players who came through their academy in the last two summers. We could sell JRC, Travis, Lenihan, Buckley, Wharton and Nyambe and we still wouldn't receive close to that amount.

2 hours ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

The simple facts are we are producing a lot of good Championship players who under a better manager would be a lot higher in the table. As ever, the problems lies with the manager, not with the quality of the players. 

Our Academy is phenomenal at producing players good enough for the league we are in. Nobody else is doing it. And there are a few more where they came from.

We are producing players good enough to stand still in the middle of the Championship at best but we aren't developing players good enough to take us to the next level. It's telling that better teams be they in the Championship or Premiership never seem to show much of an interest in any of them.

Edited by Ewood Ace
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5 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

Nyambe would although it is rather ironic that he can't get in our team. The other 3 at the moment would not. 

Reading don't have players bought when they were a Premiership team and they also have a fair few academy players in their team. 

We are producing players good enough to stand still in the middle of the Championship at best but we aren't developing players good enough to take us to the next level. It's telling that better teams be they in the Championship or Premiership never seem to show much of an interest in any of them.

Yes, our best full back in terms of actually defending and he is going for free by the looks of it. Mowbray has a problem with him and always has had.

Yep, Michael Olise as an example...we haven't produced anyone with that skill set and technique since Dunny.

We will end up in League 1 if we add more of our average youth players to the squad next season with this mon in charge 

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Just now, Ewood Ace said:

Reading don't have players bought when they were a Premiership team and they also have a fair few academy players in their team.

Like who?

Just now, Ewood Ace said:

Brentford have never been a Premiership team and not many of Swansea's team have come from when they were in the Premiership.

????????????? They've spent millions, they haven't been raised through the Academy. They don't have an Academy. 

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Just now, Ewood Ace said:

We are producing players good enough to stand still in the middle of the Championship at best but we aren't developing players good enough to take us to the next level. It's telling that better teams be they in the Championship or Premiership never seem to show much of an interest in any of them.

How do you know? A bid was made for Lenihan BY Sheff Utd by all accounts and I'm sure there's been interest in others. With respect, you won't have a clue who has bid for our players or shown an interest. 

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21 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

dont subscribe to the idea that we have lots of quality in the team and are underachieving massively because of the manager, im not saying we couldnt or shouldnt aim higher or that the manager isnt underachieving but his main flaw is that with competitive resources and plenty of time he has assembled a rather underwhelming squad of players.

His main flaw is he's won 1 match in the last 12. We are underachieving - massively

25 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

There is a lot of repeated snobbery towards Barnsley, they are overachieving IMO based on the quality of their squad but I dont think ours is necessarily better, Barnsley have some really good players for this level in Styles, Helik, Mowatt, Woodrow, Dike etc so whilst some might make their team, certainly not all of them would.

Snobbery? 

So we should be in the Top 6 then, like Barnsley? But you said our players weren't good enough for the Top 6? I'm confused. 

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Just now, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

Like who?

Reading have Richards (who has been signed by Bayern Munich for next season), Olise, Rinomhota, Holmes and McIntrye all in their first team squad who have come from their academy.

Just now, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

????????????? They've spent millions, they haven't been raised through the Academy. They don't have an Academy. 

You said apart from Barnsley the other teams at the top are full of players bought when those teams were in the Prem. I'm just pointing out that, that is incorrect as Brentford have never been in the Prem. None of Reading's squad were signed when they were in the Premiership and only a few of Swansea's players were. You can even include Norwich as well because only 2 of their current squad were signed when they were in the Premiership the rest were signed when they have been a Championship club.

14 minutes ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

Yes, they would.

Thu is fun. 🙄

Who are they starting over.

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Just now, 47er said:

More bloody loans! 14th/15th anybody? Joke. Implies Mowbray staying as well. No hope.

He's reached the point where they've stopped backing him by the looks of it. The Venksters will presumably now go in to sell mode like they did when they'd had enough of Bowyer. 

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