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8 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

I hear we have some interest in Otis Khan at Tranmere.  Might sort our right wing back problem out on the cheap. Worth a punt I'd say. Ex Utd so brought up well. Will have good technique 

Have we got a right wing back problem? I didn't realise we played with wing backs.

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Honestly I'm at a point where I just can't get excited about new signings as long as Mowbray is in charge. Even if the signee appears impressive I already know his impact will be neutered by Mowbray's

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41 minutes ago, Mike E said:

Have they? Off the top of my head, I can only think of Delle Alli, Grealish, and Henderson who have been of top PL quality equivalent to Jones from academies inferior to ours to attract top 4 interest.

I'm probably missing a few, mind

I think you have failed to understand the point I was making. I'm asking why can clubs with supposedly inferior academies to ours produce players who Premiership clubs want and are prepared to pay significant money for but we have not been able to for over a decade.

Look at some of the club in our division Norwich, Swansea, Middlesbrough, Bristol City, QPR, Luton, Derby, Forest, Huddersfield and Birmingham over the last few seasons they have all sold at least 1 player produced by them for a significant sum of money to a top flight club and not only does that help with balancing the books and for FFP but it also gives you money to reinvest in your team. 

Is it not a fair question to ask why club's with academies no better in terms of category or in many instances below ours are able to produce players who are capable of playing in the top flight yet all we seem to be able to produce is at best mid table Championship players?

What is the reason? Is the recruitment wrong? Is the coaching not right? Is there too much competition locally? Are we not casting our net wide enough? I don't know the answer but would be very interested to know. I just think given we are a category 1 academy we should occasionally be producing better than mid table Championship players at best. It's been over a decade since we produced Phil Jones and he is the last genuine top flight quality player who fetched very good money that we produced.

Edited by Ewood Ace
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2 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

Right  back, right wing back.. whatever 

All the same these days - look at Nyambe, expected to be a FB but also the winger.

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57 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

all we seem to be able to produce is at best mid table Championship players?

 

Grant Hanley and David Raya are two who spring to mind a level above that. Jack O'Connell another.

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12 minutes ago, Rogerb said:

Grant Hanley and David Raya are two who spring to mind a level above that. Jack O'Connell another.

Clutching at straws a lil with those. Raya i think has a chance of PL, Hanley had his chance and would be still there if anyone thought he could cut it. 

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13 minutes ago, Rogerb said:

Grant Hanley and David Raya are two who spring to mind a level above that. Jack O'Connell another.

Hmm..no accident that all our academy players are making our own first team, while we are a bottom half Championship side?

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1 minute ago, Rogerb said:

Grant Hanley and David Raya are two who spring to mind a level above that. Jack O'Connell another.

Raya's a Championship player and it was the fact that he is a mid table goalkeeper that cost Brentford promotion last season. Hanley was over a decade ago. I forgot about O'Connell but again you are having to go back 7-8 years to when he was an academy player. Is that really acceptable for a category 1 academy? I'm not so sure that it is.

Around 2008-2011 we had some quality player come through the likes Olsson, Hanley, Hoilett, Jones. Since then though for the last decade it has been very slim pickings in terms of talent coming through the academy. 

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3 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

Raya's a Championship player and it was the fact that he is a mid table goalkeeper that cost Brentford promotion last season. Hanley was over a decade ago. I forgot about O'Connell but again you are having to go back 7-8 years to when he was an academy player. Is that really acceptable for a category 1 academy? I'm not so sure that it is.

Around 2008-2011 we had some quality player come through the likes Olsson, Hanley, Hoilett, Jones. Since then though for the last decade it has been very slim pickings in terms of talent coming through the academy. 

It was more the mid table championship comment which I put those examples forward as players who are in my opinion a level above not necessarily at premier league level but you have a valid point that since Venkys rocked up there has been a lack but if Mowbray is to be believed that will soon change with Buckley!

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1 hour ago, JacknOry said:

All the same these days - look at Nyambe, expected to be a FB but also the winger.

Perhaps the problem is the way of playing rather than the players. Wing backs and fullbacks are nowhere near the same. They are used in two totally different formations. So what you get if you think they are all the same, is a hybrid which is no good in either position.

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1 hour ago, Ewood Ace said:

I think you have failed to understand the point I was making. I'm asking why can clubs with supposedly inferior academies to ours produce players who Premiership clubs want and are prepared to pay significant money for but we have not been able to for over a decade.

Look at some of the club in our division Norwich, Swansea, Middlesbrough, Bristol City, QPR, Luton, Derby, Forest, Huddersfield and Birmingham over the last few seasons they have all sold at least 1 player produced by them for a significant sum of money to a top flight club and not only does that help with balancing the books and for FFP but it also gives you money to reinvest in your team. 

Is it not a fair question to ask why club's with academies no better in terms of category or in many instances below ours are able to produce players who are capable of playing in the top flight yet all we seem to be able to produce is at best mid table Championship players?

What is the reason? Is the recruitment wrong? Is the coaching not right? Is there too much competition locally? Are we not casting our net wide enough? I don't know the answer but would be very interested to know. I just think given we are a category 1 academy we should occasionally be producing better than mid table Championship players at best. It's been over a decade since we produced Phil Jones and he is the last genuine top flight quality player who fetched very good money that we produced.

We've sold £13m worth of academy player since Jones tbf. Not bad considering the number of players in our first team, plus it's running self-sufficient when accounting for the £1.9m grant per year.

£1.1m/year cost x 10 = £11m

£13m - £11m = £2m profit.

All without including the £17m Jones money.

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It certainly ain't broke so it doesn't need fixing by 3 who've had next to nothing to do with it.

WTF makes Waggot, Mowbray and Venus experts on how it should and shouldn't be in the future ?

Where is their collective back catalogue for overseeing this kind of thing ?  The only reason he can trot out the stupid '5 years behind Brentford in selling and recruiting' is down to rank bad, corrupt even, management from ownership downwards.

Players have been sold for millions under Venky's, quite a few cost little or nothing. It is the way its been re-invested or not at all that is the real problem. How he's got the brass neck to come out with that when he shot 12 million directly down the tubes on just 2 forwards and expect fans to swallow it is beyond arrogant.

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44 minutes ago, Mike E said:

We've sold £13m worth of academy player since Jones tbf. Not bad considering the number of players in our first team, plus it's running self-sufficient when accounting for the £1.9m grant per year.

£1.1m/year cost x 10 = £11m

£13m - £11m = £2m profit.

In a 10 year period that isn't at all an impressive amount there are clubs in the Championship who over the last few years have eclipsed that amount with just one sell. 

There hasn't been any real quality come through for a long time, where are the next Phil Jones, Damien Duff, David Dunn, Jason Wilcox, James Beattie, Damien Johnson, Martin Taylor, Junior Hoilett, Martin Olsson? All of those came through the system and all had decent to very good careers as Premiership footballers. It's been over a decade since we have produced a single player of that standard. Why is that? 

You look at players like Paul Gallagher, Alan Judge both came through at Rovers and have had good career's in the second tier. Those 2 are better players than the ones we have seen come from the academy to first team in recent years.

The players we are producing at the moment to me are more on the level of Marlon Broomes, Frankie Fielding, Jonathan Douglas, Jay McEveley and Neil Danns. They were all decent run of the mill Championship players but nothing more, today though that standard seems to be evidence of a brilliant academy set up.

Edited by Ewood Ace
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I think a key part of the academy is not just to churn out stars but also squad players. That being said, a huge reason why us and Derby have such an "impressive" amount of graduates in and around our first team is because of a lack of quality elsewhere and poor recruitment. They wouldnt get into the teams near the top of the league.

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1 hour ago, Ewood Ace said:

In a 10 year period that isn't at all an impressive amount there are clubs in the Championship who over the last few years have eclipsed that amount with just one sell. 

There hasn't been any real quality come through for a long time, where are the next Phil Jones, Damien Duff, David Dunn, Jason Wilcox, James Beattie, Damien Johnson, Martin Taylor, Junior Hoilett, Martin Olsson? All of those came through the system and all had decent to very good careers as Premiership footballers. It's been over a decade since we have produced a single player of that standard. Why is that? 

You look at players like Paul Gallagher, Alan Judge both came through at Rovers and have had good career's in the second tier. Those 2 are better players than the ones we have seen come from the academy to first team in recent years.

The players we are producing at the moment to me are more on the level of Marlon Broomes, Frankie Fielding, Jonathan Douglas, Jay McEveley and Neil Danns. They were all decent run of the mill Championship players but nothing more, today though that standard seems to be evidence of a brilliant academy set up.

If you're using the last decade, you have to include Jones, Hoilett and Olsson.

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We should have scouts working the grass roots circuit like mad, there are 1.5m kids playing across the UK and about 400 at each club. You cannot tell me some of them are not capable of making the grade. Football is lazy.

Edited by Ulrich
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3 minutes ago, Mike E said:

If you're using the last decade, you have to include Jones, Hoilett and Olsson.

They came through the academy over a decade ago now. Phil Jones made his first team debut 12 years ago, Hoilett made his first team debut 12 years ago and Olsson made his debut 14 years ago.  

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55 minutes ago, Ulrich said:

We should have scouts working the grass roots circuit like mad, there are 1.5m kids playing across the UK and about 400 at each club. You cannot tell me some of them are not capable of making the grade. Football is lazy.

I've said this before about rovers scouting locally.  Its abysmal.   Pissing about in Europe, then just getting nobbers/liverpool cast offs...we should be a lot more visible at representative football, which we are not. 

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50 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

They came through the academy over a decade ago now. Phil Jones made his first team debut 12 years ago, Hoilett made his first team debut 12 years ago and Olsson made his debut 14 years ago.  

Historically our academy hasn't been all that good. Before Jones etc who do we produce? I'd honestly like to see a complete club shake up, top to toe, board, 1st team and academy, as I think we can do much better than we have to date.

Imagine a good well run club backed by billionaires! Well remember as we had Jack.

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Just now, Sparks Rover said:

I've said this before about rovers scouting locally.  Its abysmal.   Pissing about in Europe, then just getting nobbers/liverpool cast offs...we should be a lot more visible at representative football, which we are not. 

Every club does the above, even cat 3s for christ sake. It is as you say abysmal and quite frankly pathetic, given the money some of these people earn.

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I think the most recent crop of Buckley, Rankin-Costello, Nyambe, Scott Wharton, Butterworth and Lenihan (though he's older than the rest) has been a fair return, though, none of them will likely be amongst the most elite of players. There were hopes for Tomlinson and Hardcastle but they faded.

A lot of the continental youngsters didn't settle or cut it - from Kevin Pezzoni, Mamadi Keita to Hugo Fernandez and, perhaps, for that reason and for economy, that's been more-or-less given up as a strategy but for occasional purchases, like the Greek keeper (and, perhaps, Jalil Saadi). I can only think of maybe the Olssons, Hoilett, David Raya who made it from abroad/not Britain & Ireland, via the youth and reserve set-up, and Sergio Peter who got a few games. 

A notable difference in the current set-up is the lack of Republic of Ireland players. In the past, there was often a strong contingent of three or four reserve regulars. Over the years, there's been Keith Treacy, Alan Judge, Eddie Nolan, Gavin Gunning, Aaron Doran and, of course, Lenihan. Now, I can't think of anyone from the Republic in the U23s. But, I wonder whether that's because of the lack of talent coming through in that country, in general, or, whether, we're not scouting/have contacts in Ireland as extensively as before.

PS. Matty Pearson must go down as a success story for the academy, albeit, not spectacular, playing for Luton in the Champ, having risen back up the leagues.

Edited by riverholmes
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1 hour ago, Ewood Ace said:

They came through the academy over a decade ago now. Phil Jones made his first team debut 12 years ago, Hoilett made his first team debut 12 years ago and Olsson made his debut 14 years ago.  

When were they sold? The discussion was the sustainability of the academy as much as whether they played or not. If it is generating profit (and it has), it is sustainable.

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27 minutes ago, riverholmes said:

I think the most recent crop of Buckley, Rankin-Costello, Nyambe, Scott Wharton, Butterworth and Lenihan (though he's older than the rest) has been a fair return, though, none of them will likely be amongst the most elite of players. There were hopes for Tomlinson and Hardcastle but they faded.

A lot of the continental youngsters didn't settle or cut it - from Kevin Pezzoni, Mamadi Keita to Hugo Fernandez and, perhaps, for that reason and for economy, that's been more-or-less given up as a strategy but for occasional purchases, like the Greek keeper (and, perhaps, Jalil Saadi). I can only think of maybe the Olssons, Hoilett, David Raya who made it from abroad/not Britain & Ireland, via the youth and reserve set-up, and Sergio Peter who got a few games. 

A notable difference in the current set-up is the lack of Republic of Ireland players. In the past, there was often a strong contingent of three or four reserve regulars. Over the years, there's been Keith Treacy, Alan Judge, Eddie Nolan, Gavin Gunning, Aaron Doran and, of course, Lenihan. Now, I can't think of anyone from the Republic in the U23s. But, I wonder whether that's because of the lack of talent coming through in that country, in general, or, whether, we're not scouting/have contacts in Ireland as extensively as before.

PS. Matty Pearson must go down as a success story for the academy, albeit, not spectacular, playing for Luton in the Champ, having risen back up the leagues.

Most of these came to us as scholars.  My view is that the scouting pre U16s is poor and that's possibly something to do with them selling off one of the academy sites. Just seems like money thrown away on development centres all over from age 5 /6, teams up to U16 with coaches employed at each age group etc etc etc....and at the U16 we get rid of them all and get some of the big clubs rejects who didn't get scholarships......

Whats the point?  Buckley has been here since very young but nothing special, the last one was Jones who came right through from very young...

I might have missed one but you get my drift.  Why be cat 1 and all the cost that goes with it?

Edited by Sparks Rover
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4 hours ago, Leonard Venkhater said:

Hmm..no accident that all our academy players are making our own first team, while we are a bottom half Championship side?

We can't determine that while Mowbray is the manager. 

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