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Fair assessment. I’d probably go with a 1 for Pears only for the clean sheet vs Middlesbrough (more to do with their wastefulness) had clangers in the other games. Calling a spade a spade he’s Mowbray’s equivalent of a myles Anderson signing but to make matters worse he’s actually played, cost a fee and out earns Buckley, JRC, Dolan and Travis. 

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6 hours ago, matt83 said:

Fair assessment. I’d probably go with a 1 for Pears only for the clean sheet vs Middlesbrough (more to do with their wastefulness) had clangers in the other games. Calling a spade a spade he’s Mowbray’s equivalent of a myles Anderson signing but to make matters worse he’s actually played, cost a fee and out earns Buckley, JRC, Dolan and Travis. 

If Pears earns more than Trav, TM wants executing, never mind sacking!

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4 minutes ago, DeeCee said:

If Pears earns more than Trav, TM wants executing, never mind sacking!

On another thread someone posted the wages to be fair both on £3,500. Still scandalous. 

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Trybull would definitely have scored a few more points had he stayed fit I feel, liked him a lot but frustrating how he is seemingly made of glass.

Would love a full season of HB if at all possible although I suspect it won't be.

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Good summary. Agree with the lot in the main. Though I'd have given Ayala 1 (worst signing in years) and Douglas 4. He's been poor but he's contributed. 

Elliott I'd give a 7. I think 9 is very generous. If he was ours then maybe I'd give him a higher mark. He's got a good number of assists and certainly been an asset. I think he leaves us very exposed though with a lack of work rate and physical presence and we've essentially spent a year developing Liverpools player. 

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You could argue about the ratings slightly but overall the comments are fair enough.

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2 hours ago, ben_the_beast said:

Good summary. Agree with the lot in the main. Though I'd have given Ayala 1 (worst signing in years) and Douglas 4. He's been poor but he's contributed. 

Elliott I'd give a 7. I think 9 is very generous. If he was ours then maybe I'd give him a higher mark. He's got a good number of assists and certainly been an asset. I think he leaves us very exposed though with a lack of work rate and physical presence and we've essentially spent a year developing Liverpools player. 

No arguments on Rovers focussing on developing others' talent over our own. 

I appreciate what you are saying on Elliott and I think there's a fair bit to it. My counter would be if he didn't have those weaknesses he wouldn't be on loan, certainly not in the championship, and we wouldn't have had him if he were more of the finished article. 

A lot of players in this division have weaknesses. Good managers compensate for them and ensure they have the least effect possible on the team. TM really didn't do that well with Elliott in that regard, especially when played as one of a midfield three rather than front three. In either position with what Elliott was adding, it was far more than his weaknesses. Had we a better set of midfielders covering for example, his weaknesses I think wouldn't have been as noticeable. It's only when factored in alongside an immobile central midfield (bar Travis when fit) and a lack of physicality from strikers that it becomes a bigger problem. 

As you say though, there are still areas to work on his game, and ultimately Liverpool are the winners in this. Far from being the final pieces of the jigsaw to push us into playoffs, our loan signings are essential for us functioning. Not a healthy way to run a club whatsoever. 

Also TM managed to nullify his strengths as well as not compensate for his weaknesses with his false 9 guff. That takes a special class of manager. 

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I remember when Travis was a young player that only wanted to drive forward from midfield. Now, his career has possibly been ruined by this current setup. Been 'moybrayed' is definitely a word.

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It's fair enough having one good top potential talent belonging to someone else in the team as long as they are there on merit. Elliot was that for sure, Tosin the season before.

Ending the season with at times 3 of them in there isn't good at all though you can't be having them as the core of the team. We could have ended up with something like 5 regulars belonging to someone else.  That's not a good look and doesn't reflect well on Mr Development of his building of his side.

The owners probably loved the fact though half the teams wages are paid by other clubs. In their deluded minds this will be representing good business. Because Mowbray and the other goon say it is.

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11 hours ago, JacknOry said:

I remember when Travis was a young player that only wanted to drive forward from midfield. Now, his career has possibly been ruined by this current setup. Been 'moybrayed' is definitely a word.

I remember one of the brain if brokhall videos on YouTube ,Gallagher said he thinks he's a right back and started laughing. The players Definetely talk amongst themselves about Mowbrays bizzare decisions. The run we went on suggests to me, amongst other things, all is not well in the camp. I bet the players can't believe he is still in a job. It wouldn't happen anywhere else. 

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12 hours ago, JacknOry said:

I remember when Travis was a young player that only wanted to drive forward from midfield. Now, his career has possibly been ruined by this current setup. Been 'moybrayed' is definitely a word.

I thought he was excellent last game - doing exactly as you described - driving forward from midfield and showing some real class. That took place in this current set up didn't it?

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Pretty reasonable ratings although I wouldn't have given Elliott a 9. More like a 7.5/8 for me. 

 

Pears is shocking. We really need Kaminski not to get injured.

Harwood-Bellis would take again but I fear that horse has bolted and someone better than us will snaffle him up for next season.

Trybull - if we get rid of Johnson and Evans (fingers crossed), I'd try for him and then add another decent centre mid to the squad too. I know he's a bit marmite but I don't mind him personally.

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I must say that I dont get this narrative of Mowbray in any way hindering Travis and making him a worse player.

When he broke into the team, we all presumed that Smallwood would come back in, yet ever since, Travis has been a regular. He has not been himself since his injury but was much better at the weekend, he has his limitations but I think its an easy assumption to put those down to Mowbray putting the reigns on him.

 

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Posted (edited)

Branthwaite and THB were collectively a clever bit of loan business considering the situation we were in at CB (more on that below...). Both complete unknowns in League football, so we spread the risk of one of them not working out, and presumably with a minimal budget. Branthwaite actually looked alright for a few games before the wheels came off (nowhere near ready, but I can see him developing into a very good CB in maybe 3-4 years time), and then THB stepped in very ably. He's had a few shaky moments, but overall an excellent loan showing. Definitely interested in him coming back on loan again, particularly with Wharton and/or Ayala's health an ongoing concern.

Ayala is easily the most consequential miss considering the apparent overall cost and the importance of his role. His absence left us relying on Lenihan, Williams (an okay CB, but always injury prone and clearly had one foot out the door), Wharton, and a few unready youngsters in need of loans. Ignoring injury histories (and Williams wanting out), Lenihan, Ayala, Williams, and Wharton is actually pretty decent CB depth... but then injuries took out the latter 3.

To make some concession to Mowbray, who would've thought Wharton would pick up the most serious (and seemingly freak) injury along that backline, particularly right when he started to look like he could handle this level! Perhaps the unluckiest moment of our season (with all due respect to Dack, where some sort of injury recurrence was sadly somewhat predictable)

Ayala can, and should, be a top CB in this league. His injury/appearances history wasn't as bad as some claim - lots of whispers due to leaving 'Boro on bitter terms (as far as I can tell glancing at his appearances record, the accusation that he always picked up a mystery 'injury' over Christmas is a myth) - but obviously a major concern now after back-to-back injury-plagued years. He looked pretty unsteady in the games he did play this year too. I'm not going to outright write-off Ayala just yet. For better or for worse, we need him to bounce back in a big way next year, and he's still only 30, but obviously a major ongoing concern. 2/10 is fair enough for now, and there should be a lot of weight on that rating!

Edited by RoverCanada
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4 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

I must say that I dont get this narrative of Mowbray in any way hindering Travis and making him a worse player.

Considering this is a man who said Harrison Reed needed to learn how to play midfield from Evans and Smallwood, I can understand why people think Travis may have been Mowbrayed. Personally I don't think Travis is that much better or worse than when he debuted - maybe a bit more cautious but that tends to come with experience, and with less of a need to prove himself now that he's considered a regular. That probably isn't Mowbray's fault, but it is up to the manager and his team to help Travis improve rather than stay at his current level. Based on what I've seen from our team in the last four years I don't think TM is the man for that job. 

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42 minutes ago, DE. said:

Considering this is a man who said Harrison Reed needed to learn how to play midfield from Evans and Smallwood, I can understand why people think Travis may have been Mowbrayed. Personally I don't think Travis is that much better or worse than when he debuted - maybe a bit more cautious but that tends to come with experience, and with less of a need to prove himself now that he's considered a regular. That probably isn't Mowbray's fault, but it is up to the manager and his team to help Travis improve rather than stay at his current level. Based on what I've seen from our team in the last four years I don't think TM is the man for that job. 

Yeah I would agree that Reed is a perfect example of mismanagement by Mowbray, totally wasted based on laughable logic in an unfamiliar position during his time here.

I certainly want Mowbray out but I think we may be in a situation whereby because he needs to be removed, that he can be blamed for things that are maybe unfair.

With Travis, he has been a first team regular ever since he broke in at Sheffield United, and hes always been played in central midfield. I do think his form has dipped this season but that seems to be down to his injury.

He is what he is, hes far from perfect, hes technically average I would say, I dont think hes ever looked like a player who will score regularly, but hes a battler, full of energy and whilst hes not a top 6 midfielder, hes the stand out one for us in the middle and is still young. Maybe a new manager could get more from him, I do wonder if he is better sitting (and if he has the discipline to do that) or better slightly in front with the freedom to get forward, but I dont think he was once this box to box midfielder and now because of Mowbray he has become subdued.

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55 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Yeah I would agree that Reed is a perfect example of mismanagement by Mowbray, totally wasted based on laughable logic in an unfamiliar position during his time here.

I certainly want Mowbray out but I think we may be in a situation whereby because he needs to be removed, that he can be blamed for things that are maybe unfair.

With Travis, he has been a first team regular ever since he broke in at Sheffield United, and hes always been played in central midfield. I do think his form has dipped this season but that seems to be down to his injury.

He is what he is, hes far from perfect, hes technically average I would say, I dont think hes ever looked like a player who will score regularly, but hes a battler, full of energy and whilst hes not a top 6 midfielder, hes the stand out one for us in the middle and is still young. Maybe a new manager could get more from him, I do wonder if he is better sitting (and if he has the discipline to do that) or better slightly in front with the freedom to get forward, but I dont think he was once this box to box midfielder and now because of Mowbray he has become subdued.

I would say the whole team has become subdued at some level due to Mowbray's tactics/style, and his inability to motivate. It's very difficult to judge any of the players with the current manager at the helm, as he regularly rotates half of them for no reason, plays some out of position and seems to have no clue about defensive shape. For most of these players we'll only know how good they are when they leave - or when TM is replaced, although right now the latter seems like a distant dream, making the former sadly more likely.

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54 minutes ago, DE. said:

I would say the whole team has become subdued at some level due to Mowbray's tactics/style, and his inability to motivate. It's very difficult to judge any of the players with the current manager at the helm, as he regularly rotates half of them for no reason, plays some out of position and seems to have no clue about defensive shape. For most of these players we'll only know how good they are when they leave - or when TM is replaced, although right now the latter seems like a distant dream, making the former sadly more likely.

I dont doubt that some players are hindered by his management, especially ones who he plays out of position, even more subtle ones like when Evans is played slightly advanced which makes no sense. Issues around motivation are purely speculative.

I do think that a lot of our players do not have much if any evidence either here at Rovers or prior to joining to suggest that they are massively underperforming personally. Travis has only had Mowbray as a senior manager but I dont have any real grievance towards the manager for any perceived underachievement specifically to him. The rotation I think is not conducive to consistency, but there are a lot of average to poor players that Mowbray has signed that dont establish themselves and thus Mowbray cant decide between.

Put it this way, Mowbray has had time and money to build a squad, perhaps it could finish a couple of places higher, but I dont think that a new manager would look at it and rub his hands together.

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40 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I dont doubt that some players are hindered by his management, especially ones who he plays out of position, even more subtle ones like when Evans is played slightly advanced which makes no sense. Issues around motivation are purely speculative.

I do think that a lot of our players do not have much if any evidence either here at Rovers or prior to joining to suggest that they are massively underperforming personally. Travis has only had Mowbray as a senior manager but I dont have any real grievance towards the manager for any perceived underachievement specifically to him. The rotation I think is not conducive to consistency, but there are a lot of average to poor players that Mowbray has signed that dont establish themselves and thus Mowbray cant decide between.

Put it this way, Mowbray has had time and money to build a squad, perhaps it could finish a couple of places higher, but I dont think that a new manager would look at it and rub his hands together.

2 wins from 17 is enough for me personally to be comfortable that motivation is not in high supply at Rovers, not to mention the multiple death spirals of the last few years. Listening to Mowbray's interviews he doesn't strike me as particularly inspirational, but maybe there are others who think otherwise. Also worth remembering he admitted not too long ago to letting the dressing room effectively sort itself out - easily forgotten amongst the various nonsense he has spouted recently but imo one of his most baffling and stupid historic quotes.

One thing that can be agreed on regardless is that the manager is ultimately to blame. After four years the buck stops with him on everything. 

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1 hour ago, DE. said:

2 wins from 17 is enough for me personally to be comfortable that motivation is not in high supply at Rovers, not to mention the multiple death spirals of the last few years. Listening to Mowbray's interviews he doesn't strike me as particularly inspirational, but maybe there are others who think otherwise. Also worth remembering he admitted not too long ago to letting the dressing room effectively sort itself out - easily forgotten amongst the various nonsense he has spouted recently but imo one of his most baffling and stupid historic quotes.

One thing that can be agreed on regardless is that the manager is ultimately to blame. After four years the buck stops with him on everything. 

Definitely he is to blame and should be replaced, well should have a while ago.

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On 04/05/2021 at 20:31, roversfan99 said:

Put it this way, Mowbray has had time and money to build a squad, perhaps it could finish a couple of places higher, but I dont think that a new manager would look at it and rub his hands together.

Rub their hands together, probably not, though I agree with D.E. that it's hard to assess how good or otherwise these players actually are.

But 'perhaps a couple of places higher'? I still find it amazing that this is consistently your position. We are currently 4 points away from being a couple of places higher.

So you think that all of Mowbray's bizarre rotation, tactics and playing everyone out of position, the loss of form that can strike when you don't get a result you should, etc ...only accounts for 'perhaps' 4 points this season? I consider that an astonishing claim to make. So in that horror run, another manager might have perhaps got another win and a draw and that's it? Not taking into account the rest of the season either.

Nah. Mowbray is a terrible manager and the primary reason for results on the pitch being so dire. Even outside of his recruitment.

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11 minutes ago, bluebruce said:

Rub their hands together, probably not, though I agree with D.E. that it's hard to assess how good or otherwise these players actually are.

But 'perhaps a couple of places higher'? I still find it amazing that this is consistently your position. We are currently 4 points away from being a couple of places higher.

So you think that all of Mowbray's bizarre rotation, tactics and playing everyone out of position, the loss of form that can strike when you don't get a result you should, etc ...only accounts for 'perhaps' 4 points this season? I consider that an astonishing claim to make. So in that horror run, another manager might have perhaps got another win and a draw and that's it? Not taking into account the rest of the season either.

Nah. Mowbray is a terrible manager and the primary reason for results on the pitch being so dire. Even outside of his recruitment.

A good manager would be able to overachieve naturally, but I dont think the squad is "massively" underachieving. Looking at the teams above us, not many if any do I look at and think that our squad is definitely better.

Sometimes I think people confuse that as a defence of the manager, it very much isnt, Mowbray has had decent resources and more time than anyone else to build a squad that I dont think is close to being a genuine threat to the top 6. I think that even a top Championship manager would have to jig things around in the transfer market to get it close.

I would also agree that obviously Mowbray as a manager at this moment in time is more of a hindrance than a help. Some of the tactical choices he makes, Gallagher wide a notable one, definitely hinder us. I am a big fan of consistency in team selections, I do wonder if he would rotate less but in a number of positions, he often rotates between a number of underwhelming options that he has signed (or given new deals to) none of whom perform when given a chance. I dont doubt these flaws, and I totally agree that Mowbray is a hindrance even beyond recruitment. But I also think it is naive to be totally unwilling to judge the players as if Mowbray is quite that destructive, especially when few if any of these players have careers pre Mowbray that suggest that they are performing well below their normal level.

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Posted (edited)

I suppose not many managers would oversee such a dreadful run (or runs). Especially the last one. The owners are to blame for that too though, as are the players ,but ultimately it stops with Mowbray and that run was something few if any managers, at any level, would survive. So ya, we could easily be a good bit higher and have more points. Even though I agree some are now over hyping our squad as another way to bash the manager, when in reality as @roversfan99 points out, it's not as if many of them have shown consistently high standards previously. Those that have, like Johnson and Downing, are past it. 

A good manager could get them up top 10 and in contention for 6th place further into the season,but this isn't a guaranteed top 6 sqaud by any stretch of the imagination. 

Edited by Bigdoggsteel
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