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If you boo England players you are part of the problem


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I wouldn't boo but the time has come to stop "taking the knee". Football has shown its support for the anti-racism movement in the wake of George Floyd and must now back up that support with firm, positive action or risk the knee becoming  nothing more than an empty gesture. Continuing to take the knee for too long also risks damaging the cause it was meant to promote - and if they don't stop soon, when do they stop? A line needs to be drawn now. 

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

I wouldn't boo but the time has come to stop "taking the knee". Football has shown its support for the anti-racism movement in the wake of George Floyd and must now back up that support with firm, positive action or risk the knee becoming  nothing more than an empty gesture. Continuing to take the knee for too long also risks damaging the cause it was meant to promote - and if they don't stop soon, when do they stop? A line needs to be drawn now. 

I'd say the people to make the call on this would be black footballers. It's their decision, and I think it's a good thing that their colleagues support them. Obviously it's up to each individual to decide on what they would personally do, but heartening to see that so many white players support their black peers.

Edited by joey_big_nose
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25 minutes ago, DeeCee said:

Didn't see anyone taking the knee for Lee Rigby but their happy to take it for some drug fuelled career criminal thousands of miles away.

Pathetic!

It's not about a single event, it's about structural racism. George Floyd was the trigger but not the reason.

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9 minutes ago, joey_big_nose said:

It's not about a single event, it's about structural racism. George Floyd was the trigger but not the reason.

Indeed--- its about events that happen everyday.

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26 minutes ago, joey_big_nose said:

I'd say the people to make the call on this would be black footballers. It's their decision, and I think it's a good thing that their colleagues support them. Obviously it's up to each individual to decide on what they would personally do, but heartening to see that so many white players support their black peers.

Even that's divided. Zaha doesn't take the knee for example. It feels like a tick box now rather than  a statement. 

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I just think, like the clapping for NHS staff it's run it's natural course and any effect it had runs the risk of losing it's message simply because it's gone on too long. 

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1 minute ago, arbitro said:

I just think, like the clapping for NHS staff it's run it's natural course and any effect it had runs the risk of losing it's message simply because it's gone on too long. 

I can see what you are saying, but I think it's for the black players to decide what they would like to do. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, DeeCee said:

Didn't see anyone taking the knee for Lee Rigby but their happy to take it for some drug fuelled career criminal thousands of miles away.

Pathetic!

The act of taking the knee by sportsmen pre-dates the death of George Floyd by nearly 4 years (goggle the name Colin Kaepernick). Also the death of George Floyd was merely the straw that broke the camel's back the reasons go far deeper than that.

51 minutes ago, joey_big_nose said:

It's not about a single event, it's about structural racism. George Floyd was the trigger but not the reason.

The trouble is the knuckle dragging Neanderthals who boo the England players are far too thick and ignorant to understand that.

Edited by Ewood Ace
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Are they booing the players or the action? Either way the football authorities need to act because it threatens to undermine England’s already slim hopes of doing well in the tournament.

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58 minutes ago, joey_big_nose said:

I can see what you are saying, but I think it's for the black players to decide what they would like to do. 

Quite a few black players refused after a while decrying it's effectiveness but largely I agree. I also think it could engender fear from some white players who might not want to do it but are afraid not to for being categorised.

 

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  • Moderation Lead

The funniest thing for me is the associated gammon like Laurence Fox and Nigel Farage calling it ‘Marxism’.

As if they or anyone that supports them knows what Marxism is!

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I think the problem lies with the symbolism of 'taking the knee'.

The players might claim this is not in solidarity with the Black Lives Matter movement but unfortunately it is. On occasion it is combined with the raising of a fist. That fist is also the symbol of BLM.

Now, first and foremost, we should distinguish between the words Black Lives Matter and the organisation BLM. I heard James O'Brien going on one of his usual uppity rants at a man who proclaimed to boo which culminated in the question: "do you agree with Black Lives Matter?". It is a loaded question. I of course agree with the words but I don't agree with the organisation. The two have somehow become synonymous and that is a very clever trick by the leaders of the BLM movement. 

The ultimate aims of BLM UK are radical. Defunding the police and its goal of destroying capitalist structures threatens the country let alone the sport. I think supporting or displaying any symbol that BLM UK have adopted -  hijacked - is something that should not be supported and should not be clapped.

In any case I think them taking the knee is meaningless just like I think booing it is. There comes a time when johnny in the middle needs to have his voice heard and tell everyone on either side of these polarised arguments they need to shut up and get on with life. The reality is that most of the footballers don't care or know the depth of meaning this symbol holds, and neither do the jeering fans, so the easiest and best way to move on from this is to adapt a new way to portray your anti-racism message that is not in anyway linked with the radical BLM UK movement. 

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

I think the problem lies with the symbolism of 'taking the knee'.

The players might claim this is not in solidarity with the Black Lives Matter movement but unfortunately it is. On occasion it is combined with the raising of a fist. That fist is also the symbol of BLM.

The taking of the knee was started by NFL player Colin Kaepernick in 2016. As for the Black Power salute that was first used in the sporting world in the 1968 Olympics which pre dates BLM by 45 years. And then of course you have the fact that the players and manager have already stated the reasons for why they are doing it and they couldn't have been any clearer on numerous occasions.

The fans booing are just using BLM as a smoke screen to justify their racist behaviour. I believe the fans at the recent games are members of the England supporters club so they are the regular attenders and this sort of thuggish, knuckle dragging caveman type behaviour is exactly in line with what we regularly see from England fans. Be it booing the opposition's national anthem (including the Romania one the other night) be it chanting 'no surrender', be it chanting '2 world wars, 1 world cup', be it singing the Ten German bombers song or be it behaving like hooligans abroad.

Edited by Ewood Ace
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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

The taking of the knee was started by NFL player Colin Kaepernick in 2016. As for the Black Power salute that was first used in the sporting world in the 1968 Olympics which pre dates BLM by 45 years. And then of course you have the fact that the players and manager have already stated the reasons for why they are doing it and they couldn't have been any clearer on numerous occasions.

The fans booing are just using BLM as a smoke screen to justify their racist behaviour. I believe the fans at the recent games are members of the England supporters club so they are the regular attenders and this sort of thuggish, knuckle dragging caveman type behaviour is exactly in line with what we regularly see from England fans. Be it booing the opposition's national anthem (including the Romania one the other night) be it chanting 'no surrender', be it chanting '2 world wars, 1 world cup', be it singing the Ten German bombers song or be it behaving like hooligans abroad.

What they once represented is not what it now represents. They are two very different things. And, again, even if the players suggest it does not mean that it does not take away from the average Joe that it is, by definition and by modern relevancy, a symbol of BLM U.K.

As for your last point I would suggest such behaviour is not consigned to England and is very prevalent amongst all European nations fan bases. If anything hooliganism is dying in Britain whilst it is thriving in mainland Europe, often with links to the far right. A quick brief through news sections will show you hooliganism and racism is prevalent from France to Russia, and arrest numbers / volumes of disorder are far higher in mainland Europe than they are in the U.K. 

As a final point though I don’t particularly disagree or agree with taking the knee. I think it is pointless frankly. There are far better ways footballers and the sport can adapt anti racism policies without requiring the antagonistic symbolism at the start of each game. It is tedious now and has thoroughly served to skew the meaning of taking a knee. It is almost a meaningless gesture now. 

Edited by Dreams of 1995
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@jim mk2 is spot on with his assessment. It was a powerful message at first, but it's now just a standard event that lets you know it's nearly kick-off time. The message has been completely diluted, and I can understand why people are now irritated with it. The battle has to be fought elsewhere because this is doing nothing and, in fact, probably causing division - undoing its original intention of uniting.

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6 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

What they once represented is not what it now represents.

In your opinion but given that you think it is pointless and tedious, I'm not sure with the greatest of respect that you are an authority on what it represents. The black power salute has been around for decades and the image of the 1968 Olympics is an iconic historic and very widely seen image. 

10 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

And, again, even if the players suggest it does not mean that it does not take away from the average Joe that it is, by definition and by modern relevancy, a symbol of BLM U.K.

It's not the players fault that the people booing are ignorant knuckle dragging Neanderthals. There's only one reason why those fans are booing and they are using BLM as a smokescreen to justify it.

10 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

As for your last point I would suggest such behaviour is not consigned to England and is very prevalent amongst all European nations fan bases. If anything hooliganism is dying in Britain whilst it is thriving in mainland Europe, often with links to the far right. A quick brief through news sections will show you hooliganism and racism is prevalent from France to Russia, and arrest numbers / volumes of disorder are far higher in mainland Europe than they are in the U.K. 

It's not consigned to England but England football fans have a long history of poor behaviour, including hooliganism and some pretty unsavoury political chants which is ironic given they are now claiming that the booing is solely because they are against politics in football.

'No surrender' is regularly sung by England fans, just back in 2017 England fans in Germany for a game were proudly belting out Ten German Bombers then of course you have another favourite chant of theirs's which is '2 worlds war, 1 world cup'. The booing of the opposition anthem is a regular feature at England games including the Romanian one the other evening.

Back at the last World Cup you had England fans doing Nazi's salutes in of all places Volgograd (Stalingrad) and then of course there was the terrible hooliganism from fans in Marseille and Lille during the last Euros. The views of the far right in this country are not near as rare as you seem to think amongst England fans.

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Black Lives Matter.

It’s a very simple message. It’s that simple message that footballers are trying to get across to the fans and the country as a whole. For me, the problem comes when people see a need to twist it and confuse it. As the OP says, they are part of the problem.

I agree with Jim that at some point football will decide to move on from taking the knee, but hopefully replace it with something else that has a clout to it.

Whatever anyone does to combat racism, there will be plenty of people ready to distort it or ridicule it. They shouldn’t be allowed to get away with it.

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19 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

In your opinion but given that you think it is pointless and tedious, I'm not sure with the greatest of respect that you are an authority on what it represents. The black power salute has been around for decades and the image of the 1968 Olympics is an iconic historic and very widely seen image. 

It's not the players fault that the people booing are ignorant knuckle dragging Neanderthals. There's only one reason why those fans are booing and they are using BLM as a smokescreen to justify it.

It's not consigned to England but England football fans have a long history of poor behaviour, including hooliganism and some pretty unsavoury political chants which is ironic given they are now claiming that the booing is solely because they are against politics in football.

'No surrender' is regularly sung by England fans, just back in 2017 England fans in Germany for a game were proudly belting out Ten German Bombers then of course you have another favourite chant of theirs's which is '2 worlds war, 1 world cup'. The booing of the opposition anthem is a regular feature at England games including the Romanian one the other evening.

Back at the last World Cup you had England fans doing Nazi's salutes in of all places Volgograd (Stalingrad) and then of course there was the terrible hooliganism from fans in Marseille and Lille during the last Euros. The views of the far right in this country are not near as rare as you seem to think amongst England fans.

Well, with respect, I am not asking to be an authority on the meaning of civil rights symbols. All I am saying is that in modern day terms the taking the knee and the fist is symbolic of BLM hence the confusion between what the players say it represents and what the public believe it represents. 
 

Your last section regarding hooliganism I won’t deny there’s an element in the English core support but as a nation we are far better at dealing with them people than others. Life time bans and checking into police stations during tournaments see our trouble makers swiftly dealt with. The exact same types of chants get sung by all other nations but with different words / meanings. Eastern Europe in particular has a grave problem with far right hooliganism which has managed to seep into popular culture.

And let’s not talk about the booing of national anthems. The English national anthem is booed regularly and the attacks on English fans abroad is more common than ever. In fact, in the very same riots in Marseilles you mentioned, coordinated attacks on innocent English happened by French and Russian ultras.

But alas we digress. The meaning of the topic is in the support of taking the knee. Neither me nor my family support it in sport because we see it as a meaningless cliche that ticks boxes. It isn’t in anyway a powerful message anymore. It has been devalued and is now a symbol of divisiveness simply because the people who still use can’t even agree on the meaning behind it. 

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7 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Well, with respect, I am not asking to be an authority on the meaning of civil rights symbols. All I am saying is that in modern day terms the taking the knee and the fist is symbolic of BLM hence the confusion between what the players say it represents and what the public believe it represents. 

The knee was first taken in 2016 by Colin Kaepernick and before he took it he simply used to sit down but was actually advised by a former solider to instead take a knee instead. Anyone with even a minor grasp on history would know where the Black Power salute comes from. And the England players have said quite clearly on multiple occasions why they are doing it.

There is no confusion here only ignorance and the knuckle dragging Neanderthals who boo are trying to use BLM as a smokescreen for their ignorance. I've been watching football matches for 60 odd years and at a game or in a pub I have never heard fans having a conversation with each other about the pro's and cons of Marx and Engels (which is the smokescreen a lot of them use for justification) but sadly I have seen and heard a fair amount of racism over that same period of time.

17 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Your last section regarding hooliganism I won’t deny there’s an element in the English core support but as a nation we are far better at dealing with them people than others. Life time bans and checking into police stations during tournaments see our trouble makers swiftly dealt with.

Are we really better? The problem has been going on for decades and is still far more prevalent that it really ought to be. I think your white and red spectacles are obscuring your vision here.

17 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

The exact same types of chants get sung by all other nations but with different words / meanings. Eastern Europe in particular has a grave problem with far right hooliganism which has managed to seep into popular culture.

 I think firstly it is a rather weak rebuttal to say that the sort of chant's sing by England fan's get sung by all other nations but with different words / meanings. Firstly because it's not the case for example take the Dutch V the German's it is a very intense rivalry but the sort of things that are chanted by England fans in regards to the German's and the Irish wouldn't now be heard at one of those games. I've been fortunate enough to attend an Argentina V Brazil game and again whilst the rivalry is very intense you don't get that type of chanting.  Secondly though even if it is the case that all other sides do it that doesn't mean England should, especially when the fans are the ones claiming that one reason for booing the players is to keep politics out of football.

31 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

And let’s not talk about the booing of national anthems. The English national anthem is booed regularly and the attacks on English fans abroad is more common than ever. In fact, in the very same riots in Marseilles you mentioned, coordinated attacks on innocent English happened by French and Russian ultras.

Again your white and red spectacles are obscuring your vision England fans had their own share of responsibility for what happened. Let's not forget that England fans had been causing trouble with the police in the days leading up to the game. Why not talk about booing anthem's? Again it is very weak to use they do it so why shouldn't we argument. Personally I think it's a disrespectful act and it's not surprising that the same people booing them are the ones booing the taking of the knee because it's the type of person that they are. 

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53 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

The knee was first taken in 2016 by Colin Kaepernick and before he took it he simply used to sit down but was actually advised by a former solider to instead take a knee instead. Anyone with even a minor grasp on history would know where the Black Power salute comes from. And the England players have said quite clearly on multiple occasions why they are doing it. 

There is no confusion here only ignorance and the knuckle dragging Neanderthals who boo are trying to use BLM as a smokescreen for their ignorance. I've been watching football matches for 60 odd years and at a game or in a pub I have never heard fans having a conversation with each other about the pro's and cons of Marx and Engels (which is the smokescreen a lot of them use for justification) but sadly I have seen and heard a fair amount of racism over that same period of time.

Are we really better? The problem has been going on for decades and is still far more prevalent that it really ought to be. I think your white and red spectacles are obscuring your vision here.

 I think firstly it is a rather weak rebuttal to say that the sort of chant's sing by England fan's get sung by all other nations but with different words / meanings. Firstly because it's not the case for example take the Dutch V the German's it is a very intense rivalry but the sort of things that are chanted by England fans in regards to the German's and the Irish wouldn't now be heard at one of those games. I've been fortunate enough to attend an Argentina V Brazil game and again whilst the rivalry is very intense you don't get that type of chanting.  Secondly though even if it is the case that all other sides do it that doesn't mean England should, especially when the fans are the ones claiming that one reason for booing the players is to keep politics out of football.

Again your white and red spectacles are obscuring your vision England fans had their own share of responsibility for what happened. Let's not forget that England fans had been causing trouble with the police in the days leading up to the game. Why not talk about booing anthem's? Again it is very weak to use they do it so why shouldn't we argument. Personally I think it's a disrespectful act and it's not surprising that the same people booing them are the ones booing the taking of the knee because it's the type of person that they are.

Ewood, once again you are confusing what it once represented vs what it now does. Like it or not modern relevancy now has the fist and the knee likened towards the BLM protests than it does NFL and Jesse Owens. I get and have noted your point regarding what England players say it means but I was more talking about the justification for the “confusion”. As others have pointed out - the taking of the knee has been diluted in meaning to the point of divisiveness and within the game of football it is no longer serving its original purpose. I think I’ve been pretty fair in my comments on that. 
 

I think we are better, yes. Not many other countries have a national database of football related crime like us. If you talk about Western Europe we are probably on par with the likes of Germany and France but elsewhere in Europe it is not the case. Hooliganism is mainstream in Eastern Europe and in nations like Italy you often see the “ultras” run sections of the football grounds. There are places in Europe that hold “trials” for hooligan gangs whereby they take the latest group of initiates and let them fight it out in the woods. The survivors get to join. The losers come back later. It is tantamount to organised crime. In the U.K. it is very much fringe and nobody really has anytime for the modern day hooligan. They are frowned upon, and when caught on CCTV face anything between 3-10 years banning orders and prison. 
 

I would have to disagree with your comments regarding the chants. I guarantee you far worse chants are sung throughout Europe than “no surrender”. I think it is naive to say this problem is mainly an English one. In fact, I’d say it is an outdated view. Bringing up South America isn’t a good example either considering in recent history Boca Jnrs ultras found and murdered crematorium workers for taking a photograph of Maradonna. 
 

I was in Marseille and the truth is far from what you are portraying. A lot of innocent English fans got ran up on by Russian ultras who were transported around the city by French locals. It was indiscriminate attacking which is proven by even a cursory glance at the internet. The Russian ultras posted go-pro videos of their attacks. They bragged about it to panorama. However, I won’t deny there was a lot of anti social behaviour on offer by the English and Welsh fans. Nothing like the indiscriminate violence by others though. 
 

My comment re not talking about the booing of the anthem is because by and large it is the English anthem most booed. I don’t even think that is up for dispute. I cannot remember a tournament in recent history where a nation didn’t boo God Save the Queen. It is part and parcel of the away day culture as an English fan. 
 

Overall Ewood I think you are levelling the accusations of red and white spectacles at me but the reality is a lot different to what you are posting. You are very naive if you think the songs sung by English fans are not replicated throughout the continent. You will find a lot of South American chants sing about mother’s being whores, or sisters being c***s. A lot of European chants, particularly Italy and Germany, have far right connotations to them. It is no longer the “English disease” but a burden we share worldwide. 

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1 hour ago, Ewood Ace said:

The knee was first taken in 2016 by Colin Kaepernick and before he took it he simply used to sit down but was actually advised by a former solider to instead take a knee instead. Anyone with even a minor grasp on history would know where the Black Power salute comes from. And the England players have said quite clearly on multiple occasions why they are doing it.

The swastika is, historically, a Hindu symbol of well-being but its safe to say that got a bit tainted. Things change is the point that was being made. 

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