Wrestling Entertainment - we know, you don't have to tell us!

[Guest]

Just now, DE. said:

Yep WWE starts on BT in January 2020. Obviously a step down for them. Probably willing to pay a fair bit more than Sky though even if the ratings are nowhere near what they used to be.

I love BT's football coverage personally, and I know its a marmite one with BT but with the boxing too I think they'll probably offer some good stuff for wrestling. 

[DE.]

I won't be watching it on BT but they might be getting it at a very good time with Raw and Smackdown undergoing a transformation at the moment. If they've built some momentum by January then BT could be in a good position to capitalise. 

[Mike E]

Well, Dynamite was simply excellent! Will be catching up on NXT later.

[DE.]

The best thing about Dynamite is that it feels "big league", which is something TNA was never able to manage with Impact. 

Also really cool to hear Tony Schiavone calling wrestling on TNT again  you can tell he was enjoying himself. JR and Excaliber were great too. 

Edited October 3, 2019 by DE.

[Guest]

Not to be divisive, but I've now watched both shows (both on catch up skipping ads) and I have to say NXT was better. Opening match on NXT was just brilliant, Balor and Ciampa returns were great and I really wasn't a fan of commentary on AEW personally.

Agree that AEW wins the "big show" feel factor. As NXT's arena size does kind of impact things a little. 

[DE.]

I haven't watched NXT yet but I've always really enjoyed the Takeover specials so no doubt I'll enjoy the show. I think it's a bit harsh to compare NXT to AEW as NXT has much more experience and history behind it. AEW is starting essentially from scratch and debut shows are always hit and miss. NXT has been hitting its stride for some time now and frankly has some of the best and most recognisable talent in the world at its disposal so was always likely to be the better show overall. 

Random thoughts on Dynamite:

- Love the intro and the overall design. Really nice, big time feel. With that said I'm not really a fan of the tubes coming out either side of the entrance. Feels too much like how TNA used to have their set. Would have preferred something closer to how Nitro's entrance looked.

- Loved Schiavone bringing up Liger Vs Pillman as the opening match of the inaugural Nitro in 1995 during Cody/Guevara. Also seeing the TNT logo everywhere gave me good feels.

- Thought the commentary team in general were fine considering it was their first proper show together. Am sure they'll improve as time goes on, and it was still really cool to hear Schiavone and JR calling a major wrestling show together on TNT for the first time in around 30 years.

- First match should have been a bit shorter. It was really good but just went on a bit too long. Also think Cody should have had the chance to speak before Jericho attacked him. Promos in general across the show were either interrupted or not so good. Needs improvement.

- Women's match was excellent, as was Hangman/PAC. MJF/Cutler was average, but MJF is probably the best heel on the show and got some mic time which was good. Main Event match was OK but a bit of an overbooked cluster. I was a bit confused as to why there wasn't a DQ when Moxley attacked Omega. Also wondered why the match seemed to suddenly stop dead whilst they brawled all over the arena. Don't get me wrong, awesome brawl with a great spot on the glass table at the end, but logically left a bit to be desired. I know Khan has said he doesn't want DQ's often if at all in AEW matches, but this took that leniency a bit too far.

- Entrance music needs work. Really generic and uninspired, especially compared to NXT which has amazing themes for practically every wrestler.

- Crowd was super into the show, which makes everything come across better.  

- Hager/Swagger surprise appearance was pretty cool and he got a decent pop. 

Ultimately I thought it was a solid if not totally spectacular debut, and there's a lot of promise there. It'll be interesting to see how the ratings compare. 

[Guest]

Just now, DE. said:

- Entrance music needs work. Really generic and uninspired, especially compared to NXT which has amazing themes for practically every wrestler.

My personal issue with the entrance music was that I genuinely couldn't hear it.

[DE.]

Just now, JoeH said:

My personal issue with the entrance music was that I genuinely couldn't hear it.

There is that too. Very WCW-esque as this was often the case on the earlier (95-96) Nitros as well. 

[Mike E]

Having watched both, I really enjoyed both. Simple as that, really.

Also just found out the full AEW show is available on ITV Hub from 7pm Thursdays. Not as good as 'live' but better than just a highlight show on Sunday morning. Won't pay for Fite TV if I can just wait a day and watch it at a relatively normal time the next day

[DE.]

Yeah, 7pm on the ITV hub and 11.20pm on ITV4 on Friday I believe. Apparently ITV jumped the gun on the initial TV slot announcement.

Edited October 3, 2019 by DE.

[DE.]

AEW: 1.4m viewers

NXT: 890k viewers

Great start for AEW. Anything over a million was going to be considered a major success, 1.4m is a significant number. Remains to be seen whether they can keep the momentum going. 

Edited October 3, 2019 by DE.

[Mike E]

Just now, DE. said:

AEW: 1.4m viewers

NXT: 890k viewers

Great start for AEW. Anything over a million was going to be considered a major success, 1.4m is a significant number. Remains to be seen whether they can keep the momentum going. 

Holy shit, I would've been happy with half that number tbh.

To generate 1m NEW viewers at worst, and take 2/300k from NXT is a remarkable TV debut imo.

[DE.]

TNT were projecting around the 500k mark for the first show so this is an absolutely massive sucess for AEW no matter how you look at it. Apparently the ratings in Charlotte and the Carolinas in particular were huge, which isn't a surprise as those were WCW hotbeds back in the 90s. I get the feeling a lot of lapsed fans tuned into AEW last night. I hope that what they saw encouraged them to continue watching going forward.

https://www.thewrap.com/all-elite-wrestling-dynamite-ratings-aew-nxt-wwe/

Some more detail on the numbers here. AEW beat NXT in their key demographic (18-49) by 878,000 to 414,000! WWE were impressed/shaken enough to offer AEW a public congratulations which is pretty insane in of itself.

Still got Smackdown's debut on FOX to come on Friday. What a week.

[Guest]

Trying my best not to get over excited for Friday because WWE's main event shows often let down on expectations. But deep down I'm really hopeful for something special. 

[DE.]

I never get excited for WWE shows anymore as they've let me down too many times in the past, but I'm really curious to see what Smackdown on FOX looks like. They apparently want a more sports-orientated presentation (ironically probably very similar to Dynamite) so it might be very different to what they usually produce.

One thing I loved about Dynamite that I didn't mention before was the lack of backstage bullshit and attempted comedy. One thing I liked about WCW back in the day was that 99% of the show was done in front of the audience. Interviews were almost all done on the ramp or in the ring. There were very few campy or silly backstage segments, and no "invisible camera" nonsense. That changed as WCW started trying to copy WWE towards the end, but the earlier Nitros (96-98 especially) really nailed that sports-style presentation and AEW seems to be going more in that direction. 

[Mike E]

Raw needs to go completely the other way to SD, NXT, and AEW imo. Needs to go full pantomime, blockbuster nonsense. Fiend is perfect for that, but I'm thinking along the lines of the recent Lashley v Strowman big beefy boy match.

[DE.]

Just now, Mike E said:

Raw needs to go completely the other way to SD, NXT, and AEW imo. Needs to go full pantomime, blockbuster nonsense. Fiend is perfect for that, but I'm thinking along the lines of the recent Lashley v Strowman big beefy boy match.

Judging by the ending to this week's show that's exactly what they're doing tbf!

Also nobody should watch AEW on ITV. They're editing stuff out apparently. Between this and the timeslot fuck ups it's almost like they don't want anybody to watch AEW on their platform.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Mike E said:

Raw needs to go completely the other way to SD, NXT, and AEW imo. Needs to go full pantomime, blockbuster nonsense. Fiend is perfect for that, but I'm thinking along the lines of the recent Lashley v Strowman big beefy boy match.

I agree. I also think that a big WWE guy like Roman should be over on Raw too. They're going to need some stars to keep Raw alive if Smackdown is the A show, and Roman is spot fest personified.

[Miller11]

Caught up today with Dynamite - here’s my thoughts:

 

The arena looks great. Superb production values.

 

On a personal note, I loved seeing Tony Schiavone back on commentary - and considering he’s been on a near 20 year hiatus he did great! JR adds legitimacy, and is still fantastic. I haven’t been a fan of Excalibur thus far, but he did ok on here. I really liked the fact they talked about WCW and acknowledged the world outside their own “universe”, and really the only issues I had with the commentary was the expectation of too much prior knowledge of the AEW product so far. This might be a result of me watching the broadcast on ITV player (more on that later).

 

Cody V Guevara

Cody’s entrance was great and he’s just an absolute superstar. Guevara was a bit sloppy at times but good overall. I thought the Brandi spot was silly, there was no real payoff to it. For me this was a good match, and a great way to open the first broadcast. There were too many false finishes. Once again an inside cradle is seen as a more effective move than a really vicious looking inverted superplex.

 

Schiavone doing in ring interviews post match- yes please!! Real shame Cody didn’t get a word or two in before the Jericho run in... now this is where the crowd become problematic - Jericho, being a heel, gets a big face pop. I get that people are excited to see him, being as he’s one of the few legitimate stars they have, but if they had allowed Cody to cut an impassioned promo having won, Jericho might’ve got the right reaction.

 

*It appears that the ITV player broadcast has cut out a big chunk here - this may have effected the next segment. Pissed off to have missed MJF too.

 

SCU promo 

This again seemed to presume knowledge of a tag tournament. Love SCU, but I didn’t really get this. Lucha bros interrupt and descends to brawl. Meh.

 

Hangman Page v PAC

Bit annoyed PAC has robbed Dave Mastiff’s bastard moniker, not that WWE would ever let him use it. Really good match, strongest in ring performances of the night. Good ending with Hebner playing his part well. The timing on the finish was spot on, and this was proper heel V face. Both are going to be big players going forward.

 

Nayla v Riho

Nice recap video as Britt Baker is out for commentary - she shouldn’t have bothered though as she was awful... but far from the biggest problem here.

Sloppy and disjointed match throughout. Some good ideas, but execution an issue.

Nayla is more than twice the size of Riho... if Riho is going to overcome Nayla it needed to be a long build, seeing her overcome the odds. All they have achieved here is to bury their top female star, and their entire division. I can’t see Riho getting over to anywhere near the level needed to carry the women’s division. Ridiculous booking. Really bugged me how a little shove to the face floored Riho longer than any of the big moves got during the match and necessitated a save from Omega. Stupid.

Another post match interview broken up, and the least said about that powerbomb the better.

 

Main event

Said it before, not a fan of Omega or the Bucks. Plenty of dives, superkicks and Omega’s daft poses.

Moxley and Omega’s brawl was sloppy and low budget... Omega moves like a cat, but can’t make a punch look legitimate. The glass table break looked shit, but at least it took them out of the action - because seeing them return after that would’ve been really stupid.

I thought the Bucks dragged LAX down to their level... seeing them stood round waiting for moves to land on them and seeing them overselling is just sad. The Bucks are great at doing wrestling moves, they are not good at having wrestling matches in my opinion.

But along comes Jericho to save the day! Masterclass. Minimal involvement but every little move he makes means something (both here and in the earlier beatdown). Despite the early cheers he got, he cemented himself as undeniably a heel here. Until his involvement there was no psychology, rhyme or reason. Showed why he is their main man.

While the match itself wasn’t anything to shout about, the ending was phenomenal. What a fantastic way to end their debut show! Battle lines drawn between clearly defined heels and faces. Jake Haeger looked a beast! Having seen a bit of him since leaving WWE (notably on the short lived 5 star) what I will say is GET THE MAN A MANAGER! Drawing similarities to Brock is lazy, but he would benefit massively from a strong mouth piece... the ideal man for the job (Cornette) will never happen, so it’ll take some thinking outside the box. Could be immense for them.

 

All in all this was a strong show, better than I expected, and it left me wanting to watch again. My big concerns are where they go with the women’s division now, as well as the impending doom I feel knowing Janela, Orange Cassidy and some of the other jokes they have employed will inevitably appear in the coming weeks. 

They’ve got good backing, and some great talents... hopefully egos and in jokes won’t be allowed to spoil things as they have a real opportunity here.

[Mike E]

I don't think he'll need a manager until he splits from this stable (surely Jericho will be the mouthpiece).

However, when he does split, he'll need a manager out of left field which are the best in modern wrestling imo:

Dutch Mantel with Jake's 'Jack Swagger' character.

Paul Ellering, then Drake Maverick, with AOP.

Heyman's introduction of Brock Lesnar.

Lio Rush with Bobby Lashley.

 

I'll offer a suggestion that when he splits from the group he could have DDP as manager. Or maybe someone completely different/insane like Raven or AJ Lee. Someone with command of the mic.

[Miller11]

Just now, Mike E said:

 

I'll offer a suggestion that when he splits from the group he could have DDP as manager. Or maybe someone completely different/insane like Raven or AJ Lee. Someone with command of the mic.

Funnily enough I was thinking Jake Roberts. He’s very close to DDP, so there’s an in. He seems to be over his demons, but given his previous it’d be a big risk. One of the greatest on the mic of all time though, and something that would get people talking and tuning in.

[Mike E]

Just now, Miller11 said:

Funnily enough I was thinking Jake Roberts. He’s very close to DDP, so there’s an in. He seems to be over his demons, but given his previous it’d be a big risk. One of the greatest on the mic of all time though, and something that would get people talking and tuning in.

Now THAT sounds brilliant.

[DE.]

53 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

On a personal note, I loved seeing Tony Schiavone back on commentary - and considering he’s been on a near 20 year hiatus he did great! JR adds legitimacy, and is still fantastic. I haven’t been a fan of Excalibur thus far, but he did ok on here. I really liked the fact they talked about WCW and acknowledged the world outside their own “universe”, and really the only issues I had with the commentary was the expectation of too much prior knowledge of the AEW product so far. This might be a result of me watching the broadcast on ITV player (more on that later).

Agree that it was incredible hearing Tony back on commentary, and he hasn't lost a step either. I thought he and JR had really solid chemistry, and Excalibur did a good job of being the fact guy (basically playing the Mike Tenay role from the WCW days). Worth noting Tony has actually been doing commentary for MLW for a little while, so he had some practice beforehand. He's also been regularly announcing sports since WCW died and you can hear that legitimacy in everything he says. WWE are stupid for never bringing him in, frankly. He's still one of the best in the business.

Your comment about AEW assuming fans have prior knowledge of the performers has been mentioned a lot so I don't think it's related to how you watched it. They definitely aren't holding anybody's hand with this one. It was the same with the PPV's - it was expected to some degree that you'd watched or at least knew the basics of Being the Elite on YouTube. I didn't so some aspects of those shows were lost on me. I still enjoyed them but probably not as much as I would have with a bit more background. 

53 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

I thought the Brandi spot was silly, there was no real payoff to it. For me this was a good match, and a great way to open the first broadcast. There were too many false finishes. Once again an inside cradle is seen as a more effective move than a really vicious looking inverted superplex.

Pretty much agree with all of this. It would have been better to leave the Brandi spot out and have the match cut a bit shorter. She recovered almost instantly so there really wasn't much point to the spot. I think the false finishes were designed to elevate Guevara despite the loss, which is understandable as it looks like he's going to be a part of Jericho's heel stable.

53 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

Schiavone doing in ring interviews post match- yes please!! Real shame Cody didn’t get a word or two in before the Jericho run in... now this is where the crowd become problematic - Jericho, being a heel, gets a big face pop. I get that people are excited to see him, being as he’s one of the few legitimate stars they have, but if they had allowed Cody to cut an impassioned promo having won, Jericho might’ve got the right reaction.

Yeah they definitely should have let Cody speak a little before Jericho's attack. They rushed into it a bit which didn't give the crowd time to settle, you could tell they wanted to give Schiavone some love but didn't get the chance. 

53 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

SCU promo 

This again seemed to presume knowledge of a tag tournament. Love SCU, but I didn’t really get this. Lucha bros interrupt and descends to brawl. Meh.

I haven't watched the ITV version of the show but in the full version the tag tournament was explained via a graphic. I don't think the beef between the Lucha Bros and SCU was explained, but I guess it was just because they're both in the tournament. 

Speaking of ITV's cuts, it was a shame they cut MJF's segment but whilst his promo was good his match with Cutler only last a couple of minutes and was nothing special so you aren't missing out on much there. I think the other cut was the segment with the Jay and Silent Bob actors which was by far the worst part of the show so again, not missing much there. 

53 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

Nayla v Riho

Nice recap video as Britt Baker is out for commentary - she shouldn’t have bothered though as she was awful... but far from the biggest problem here.

Sloppy and disjointed match throughout. Some good ideas, but execution an issue.

Nayla is more than twice the size of Riho... if Riho is going to overcome Nayla it needed to be a long build, seeing her overcome the odds. All they have achieved here is to bury their top female star, and their entire division. I can’t see Riho getting over to anywhere near the level needed to carry the women’s division. Ridiculous booking. Really bugged me how a little shove to the face floored Riho longer than any of the big moves got during the match and necessitated a save from Omega. Stupid.

Another post match interview broken up, and the least said about that powerbomb the better.

Not sure what was going on with Britt Baker, she sounded drugged up and like she was about to fall asleep. Really strange.

The first half of this match wasn't very good, and I didn't understand why Nyla started pulling out chairs mid way through the match. It made no sense - why would she do something to potentially get disqualified in a title match? It wasn't really explained and I thought that was illogical from a booking standpoint. Second half of the match was better and the crowd were really behind Riho when she pulled out the win. Nyla had a lot of botches in this match which was unfortunate. I think the original plan was to put the belt on Nyla, but she said some stupid stuff on Twitter which might have changed their minds. I think they would have liked to have given the belt to Hikaru Shida, who looks like an absolute star, but I believe she's finishing off a tour with her old promotion which might be why they chose Riho instead. I'm guessing we'll soon get Shida Vs Riho would should be excellent. 

The botched powerbomb attempt at the end was a shame, although I thought Schiavone covered for it really well by calling it a double clutch. Just more evidence of what he brings to the table in the commentary position. The Omega save would have seemed weird to anybody who didn't know Omega and Riho's previous history, and was also an odd way to debut Omega on the show. 

53 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

Main event

Said it before, not a fan of Omega or the Bucks. Plenty of dives, superkicks and Omega’s daft poses.

Moxley and Omega’s brawl was sloppy and low budget... Omega moves like a cat, but can’t make a punch look legitimate. The glass table break looked shit, but at least it took them out of the action - because seeing them return after that would’ve been really stupid.

I thought the Bucks dragged LAX down to their level... seeing them stood round waiting for moves to land on them and seeing them overselling is just sad. The Bucks are great at doing wrestling moves, they are not good at having wrestling matches in my opinion.

But along comes Jericho to save the day! Masterclass. Minimal involvement but every little move he makes means something (both here and in the earlier beatdown). Despite the early cheers he got, he cemented himself as undeniably a heel here. Until his involvement there was no psychology, rhyme or reason. Showed why he is their main man.

While the match itself wasn’t anything to shout about, the ending was phenomenal. What a fantastic way to end their debut show! Battle lines drawn between clearly defined heels and faces. Jake Haeger looked a beast! Having seen a bit of him since leaving WWE (notably on the short lived 5 star) what I will say is GET THE MAN A MANAGER! Drawing similarities to Brock is lazy, but he would benefit massively from a strong mouth piece... the ideal man for the job (Cornette) will never happen, so it’ll take some thinking outside the box. Could be immense for them.

Honestly I liked the brawl and the table spot, although I didn't like that the production team abandoned the match to focus on it. Should have been a split screen or something similar. The match itself was fine but somewhat chaotic. Jericho is definitely the glue that holds a lot of what's happening at the main event level together. 

Having heard Hager's promos in WWE he either needs a manager or to just be the muscle in the stable who doesn't say very much. That role would suit him just fine.

There were two things about Dynamite as a whole that stood out to me, and seperates AEW from previous pretenders like TNA who tried and failed to be an alternative:

1) AEW just feels and looks big league. The production, presentation and design instantly gives the impression of a top tier promotion. It's something TNA and ROH in particular were never able to achieve. Both had some great content at various points in their history but always looked second rate compared with WWE, and it became even worse when TNA in particular started to become WWE-lite towards the end of the 2000s. AEW has WWE's production values but they aren't trying to be WWE. They are a genuine alternative in every sense and it is so refreshing after so many years of the WWE product being front and centre as the only real game in town. 

2) AEW's focus on younger, fresh talent sets them apart from previous promotions who relied heavily on older stars and WWE cast offs. AEW has some of these - Jericho, Dustin Runnels, Hager, JR, Schiavone, even Cody - but it's mixed perfectly with fresh talent who are being pushed and utilised effectively. 

I'm really looking forward to next week's show, and the future in general. It's like wrestling as a whole has finally woken up from the coma induced by WWE's purchase of WCW back in 2001. 

Edited October 4, 2019 by DE.

[DE.]

Just got done watching Smackdown and thought it was massively disappointing. The new set and graphics look good but that's about it. Otherwise it's the same old shit. Kofi getting squashed and buried at the end by Lesnar, followed by the debut of an MMA guy who as far as I can tell was relevant about ten years ago, was just the cherry on top of the shit sundae. 

The opening to the show with the Rock/Becky/Corbyn segment was fine, but also the same shit the Rock does every time he comes back. Funny but ultimately hollow and going nowhere.

Women's tag match was OK. 

WWE are doing their usual of running a cool concept into the ground with Wyatt and the Firefly Funhouse. It's already starting to feel overexposed and the fiend coming out and doing the same attack every week is already boring. Also Rollins acting like a scared child is pretty pathetic for a champion and not exactly a good look. 

Owens/Shane was a decent ladder match. Hopefully Shane losing means he goes away for a while.

The eight man tag was pretty meh with a bunch of wrestlers I barely care about. The angle with Strowman/Fury at the end was the best part of the entire thing, but much like the main event I'm not convinced it's a good idea to showcase legitimate fighters over your existing talent.

Not sure why Reigns/Rowan needed a lumberjack stipulation but either way the match was painfully average. These two have no chemistry together whatsoever. 

I don't even know what to say about Kingston being beaten in five seconds. We've seen multiple people kick out of F5's so why is Kingston so weak that he's defeated by one, having taken no offence previously? Not only does it crush Kingston's credibility but it also makes everyone who's lost to him recently look like a total chump. Stupid booking that we've seen time and time again when it comes to Brock. It got old a long time ago. I barely know anything about Cain Valesquez as a wrestler but he has a shit physique and unless you're into UFC there's no reason to care about him appearing. I'm somewhat into UFC and I don't care about him appearing. 

Overall Smackdown was the definition of lipstick on a pig. All I can say is thank god for AEW and NXT. Wednesday is the night to watch from now on. 

[Miller11]

Just now, DE. said:

Just got done watching Smackdown and thought it was massively disappointing. The new set and graphics look good but that's about it. Otherwise it's the same old shit. Kofi getting squashed and buried at the end by Lesnar, followed by the debut of an MMA guy who as far as I can tell was relevant about ten years ago, was just the cherry on top of the shit sundae. 

The opening to the show with the Rock/Becky/Corbyn segment was fine, but also the same shit the Rock does every time he comes back. Funny but ultimately hollow and going nowhere.

Women's tag match was OK. 

WWE are doing their usual of running a cool concept into the ground with Wyatt and the Firefly Funhouse. It's already starting to feel overexposed and the fiend coming out and doing the same attack every week is already boring. Also Rollins acting like a scared child is pretty pathetic for a champion and not exactly a good look. 

Owens/Shane was a decent ladder match. Hopefully Shane losing means he goes away for a while.

The eight man tag was pretty meh with a bunch of wrestlers I barely care about. The angle with Strowman/Fury at the end was the best part of the entire thing, but much like the main event I'm not convinced it's a good idea to showcase legitimate fighters over your existing talent.

Not sure why Reigns/Rowan needed a lumberjack stipulation but either way the match was painfully average. These two have no chemistry together whatsoever. 

I don't even know what to say about Kingston being beaten in five seconds. We've seen multiple people kick out of F5's so why is Kingston so weak that he's defeated by one, having taken no offence previously? Not only does it crush Kingston's credibility but it also makes everyone who's lost to him recently look like a total chump. Stupid booking that we've seen time and time again when it comes to Brock. It got old a long time ago. I barely know anything about Cain Valesquez as a wrestler but he has a shit physique and unless you're into UFC there's no reason to care about him appearing. I'm somewhat into UFC and I don't care about him appearing. 

Overall Smackdown was the definition of lipstick on a pig. All I can say is thank god for AEW and NXT. Wednesday is the night to watch from now on. 

I didn’t see all of it, but from what I did, I agree. Was looking forward to the Rock, but it was same old same old. I don’t get the fascination with Becky Lynch either.

I’m just praying they don’t ruin Bray Wyatt completely on Sunday.

The whole show seemed a bit desperate.