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Tywin's treatment of Tyrion's common wife, and the lie he had Jaime tell, has been referenced twice that I can remember.

In the books Tyrion is made to go last in the rape and gives her a golden coin at the end, as "Lannister's are worth more". This was omitted from the show.

He's made threats of a more general nature to Cersie (though I agree he hasn't threatened Tommen).

Exactly. He's made plenty of idle threats and none of them have implied the rape and beating of his own nephew! Not that Tyrion would've wanted that to happen, but it's still a shade of darkness to him that is noticeably absent in the show's shining paragon.

His poisoning of Cersei was not intended to kill her, only inconvenience her. And HBO does a good job if showing the conflict, even it they don't dwell on every slight one has given the other.

I never said it was intended to kill her. He dopes her up so she cannot interfere with his plans. Pretty sneaky, sis! But we can't have HBO's Tyrion doing such an underhanded trick. Oh no. Damn, they can't even get Tyrion & Cersei's relationship right from episode to episode. One minute they'll be hating on each other, and then the next minute they're having cosy little heart-to-hearts.

Turning Symon into a stew was Bronn's idea, not Tyrion's, though Tyrion did give the order to make him disappear.

It still shows that Tyrion has no qualms about ordering a man to his death who's going to blow the lid on his secret affair. Something they could have easily portrayed on screen if it didn't conflict with their idealized version of the character. So, in summary, you've conceded that all of those misdeeds committed by Tyrion which paint him as quite the morally ambiguous character have been cut from the show with nothing comparable to replace them. Tyrion's a wholly more sympathetic guy in this adaptation. Hell, we even have people telling Sansa that he's not such a bad catch! In the books the guy's just about despised by everyone.

The same can also be said of Cersei when it comes to the whitewashing. A lot of her crimes in the books, such as ordering the deaths of Robert's @#/?s, have all been dumped on Joffrey in the show, since he's such an easy scapegoat.

As to Jon, he's lectured by his elders quite a few times in the books (Benjen, Mormont, Tyrion, etc.).

Those all happen while Jon's first acclimatizing to life on the Wall, not when he takes to the field. They weren't due to Jon being a dolt and purposefully putting himself in danger, like getting clumped for spying on Craster, and the following reprimand by Mormont for it. Jon was much smarter than that in the books... and he's about five years younger too!

He did take Ygritte prisoner as he was to weak/honorable to kill her, though the lost scene was an invention of the show. Ygritte mocks him about his behaviors before he gives in. The wildlings are on his case for the most part. I fail to see how HBO has failed to capture Jon's character.

In the books he just lets her escape, as he's incapable of killing her. Whereas in the show he bungles her execution, has a game of cat and mouse, and then takes her as a hostage, suffering puns about his virginity and his penor along the way. What was the plan here? Take her back to the Halfhand? As far as Jon knew in the show, he wanted her dead, and since he doesn't want to kill her, what sense would that make? It all makes Jon look like a complete putz.

At this point, Arya has killed one person and ordered the death of three others. She's endured tremendous trauma. HBO is doing an excellent job showing her psychological shift from high spirited noble to remorseless assassin.

If by 'tremendous trauma' you mean being Tywin's personal cupbearer and getting to sit in the warmth and eat his food while they trade campfire stories, then yeah. And what about when she took part in the infamous "Weasal soup" scene and helped murder several Harrenhal guards? Or the guard she kills upon her escape? Arya in the books has a far greater head count than the television version, who's a widdle pussycat by comparison. It will be interesting to see what HBO does with the "Tickler" scene... or the equivalent, since the Tickler was killed off in S2.

I get the impression that you want each page of the novels on screen. That's not reasonable. There will be cuts and the story will be condensed.

That's the typical strawman reply to any reader who finds fault with the show. These aren't nitpicks. They're deviations that alter the whole complexion of the characters. I have no problem with enforced changes due to budgetary and time constraints, that's to be expected, but it's neither here nor there in regards to my argument. Season 1 was a masterpiece for the fact it followed the story faithfully and didn't take too many liberties, and anything new they did invent was well-written and fleshed out peripheral characters. I'm not sure how they could get it so wrong with everything afterwards. Edited by Amarillo

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Heard reference to the red wedding but watched the last 10 minutes of that episode with my mouth open, from the foreboding music starting to the end credits was just incredible stuff

My main problem is the main 'protagonists' left in Arya and Denyris (?) I find really dull, bring back the dance teacher

Edited by Tom M

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surely John Snows going to become a bigger player now he's stopped fannying about north of the wall.

Edited by T.J.Newton

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One of the HBO channels I have has been showing the Sopranos every night for a month or so now. It's now up to season 4. Absolutely cracking TV. I have seen all of them more than once but watch every night.

I need to get into Game of Thrones and Homeland.

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surely John Snows going to become a bigger player now he's stopped fannying about north of the wall.

Him, the imp and dragonbabe are clearly the main characters. They've been mainstays in the story all the way through so far and seem to get the most screen time.

I do wanna know who Snows mother is as that's obviously a key part of the show, given he's discussed it so often.

Another aspect is the imp. i watched the series one episode today where Ned is looking at the fat kings heritage. black hair all the way through till joffrey and something dawned on me. All the lannisters are blonde except the imp.

I know what I think it is having watched season one again?

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I do wanna know who Snows mother is as that's obviously a key part of the show, given he's discussed it so often.

It's pretty obvious if you're read the books. Edited by Amarillo

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Him, the imp and dragonbabe are clearly the main characters. They've been mainstays in the story all the way through so far and seem to get the most screen time.

I do wanna know who Snows mother is as that's obviously a key part of the show, given he's discussed it so often.

Another aspect is the imp. i watched the series one episode today where Ned is looking at the fat kings heritage. black hair all the way through till joffrey and something dawned on me. All the lannisters are blonde except the imp.

I know what I think it is having watched season one again?

As to the parentage of Jon Snow and Tyrion Lannister, here's the following (SPOILERS FROM THE BOOKS- DON'T READ PAST THIS POINT):

Here the multiple Jon Snow theories: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jon_Snow/Theories

As to Tyrion Lannister, here's a pro/con discussion: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/53017-tyrion-as-a-targaryen/

All said, I think Jon Snow is the legitimate son of Rheagar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. There is no direct evidence of this but a ton of circumstantial evidence from the novels.

As to Tyrion, he's a smaller (but cleverer and more humane) version of Tywin. While there is some weak evidence that he's the son of Aerys (the Mad) Targaryen, I think all said he's clearly Tywin's son. If anyone is illegitimate in the Lannister family its Cersie and Jaime (though I think this is unlikely also).

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As to the parentage of Jon Snow and Tyrion Lannister, here's the following (SPOILERS FROM THE BOOKS- DON'T READ PAST THIS POINT):

Here the multiple Jon Snow theories: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jon_Snow/Theories

As to Tyrion Lannister, here's a pro/con discussion: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/53017-tyrion-as-a-targaryen/

All said, I think Jon Snow is the legitimate son of Rheagar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. There is no direct evidence of this but a ton of circumstantial evidence from the novels.

As to Tyrion, he's a smaller (but cleverer and more humane) version of Tywin. While there is some weak evidence that he's the son of Aerys (the Mad) Targaryen, I think all said he's clearly Tywin's son. If anyone is illegitimate in the Lannister family its Cersie and Jaime (though I think this is unlikely also).

Cheers.

I'm highly suspicious now as in the books Tyrion has white blonde hair ala Sexylady and in the show brown.

Guess we'll find out when they catch fire.

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That last episode was tosh after the last one, no blood no guts and no-one died. Although i must admit I'm rather beginning to like Greyjoys captor, he's one sick kean, eating lunch in front of him like that.

When does series 4 start?

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Season 4 is the second half of the novel "A Storm of Swords" (as season 3 was the first half). It'll have plenty of blood, guts and death, I'm sure.

For example, we haven't yet meant Doran Martell, Prince of Dorne and Elia' older brother [Elia being Rheagar Targaryen's wife who was raped by the Mountain, and her and her infant children murdered by Lannisters in the Sack of King's Landing). He makes Michael Corleone look impatient by comparison. He's waited 15 years for his revenge, building alliances, weaving webs, hiding his intentions from even his close family.

He wants them all dead; every single Lannister. Two of my favorite quotes of his from the novels (when finally revealing his intentions to his previously in the dark and pseudo-rabid daughter):

"Vengeance. Justice. Fire and Blood." (

"I have worked at the downfall of Tywin Lannister since the day they told me of Elia and her children".

Edited by Steve Moss

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that was a pretty lame episode, it was just laying the foundations for next season(which I imagine will be about 10 months away)

Apparently it's what HBO do the penultimate episode is the beauty and the last one the aftermath. I just want blood and guts every week @#/? to all the aftermath rubbish.

Season 4 is the second half of the novel "A Storm of Swords" (as season 3 was the first half). It'll have plenty of blood, guts and death, I'm sure.

For example, we haven't yet meant Doran Martell, Prince of Dorne and Elia' older brother [Elia being Rheagar Targaryen's wife who was raped by the Mountain, and her and her infant children murdered by Lannisters in the Sack of King's Landing). He makes Michael Corleone look impatient by comparison. He's waited 15 years for his revenge, building alliances, weaving webs, hiding his intentions from even his close family.

He wants them all dead; every single Lannister. Two of my favorite quotes of his from the novels (when finally revealing his intentions to his previously in the dark and pseudo-rabid daughter):

"Vengeance. Justice. Fire and Blood." (

"I have worked at the downfall of Tywin Lannister since the day they told me of Elia and her children".

Now that I've gotten into the show I'll go and read the books over the coming months and become like Amarillo as I hate it when 'Hollowood' makes changes from the original.

Doran is in for some dissappointment then by all accounts, too much planning and not enough action. How does a mountain rape a woman? Did she fall on a penis shaped rock?

I don't like the lannisters much either if honest although Jamie is surely about to flip and become a better man?

I do wonder what Sam? (very fat nightwatch lad who killed the iceman) will end up doing in the book as he seems to be growing as a character. Although his discovery of those weapons is probably his glory moment.

Theres a show called casualty thats supposed to he ok!

Come on mods sort it this is only for HBO shows!!!!!

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SPOILERS FOR THE SHOW AND BOOKS-

The Mountain is Ser Gregor Clegane- so named due to his size. His been scene on the show. He was burned the Riverlands (on Tywin's orders) when Tyrion was kidnapped by Catelyn Stark. Eddard Stark, as Hand of the King, sent Beric Dondarrion after him. Beric, after Eddard's execution, becomes the leader of the BwB and was killed (temporarily) by Gregor's brother, Sandor Clegane (he of the burned face). Sandor is a better warrior than Gregor (though Gregor doesn't realize it) but has some personal issues (mostly involving childhood trauma inflicted upon him by Gregor- the Clegane brothers would gladly kill each other).

Doran's plans must be kept in context. No one anticipated the return of the Dragons. He worked with Illyrio and Varys to get Dany her Dothraki horde and when they invaded, Dorne would attack from the south. For a variety of reasons that plan went to hell in a hand basket. Bur Doran is the type of man who has plan B, C and D all waiting in the wings. As GRRM likes symmetry, I suspect that Doran will be the one who does in Cersie, Tommen and Myrcella Lannister.

Sam is very cool. He's almost like a modern person stuck in this pseudo-medieval world. Well read, intelligent, compassionate, and avoids violence. He tries to work out rational solutions to problems, which normally don't involve an edge of the sword (which is most characters first instinct). He still has several more glory moments coming up.

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We watched Atlantis last night. I'm usually a big supporter of BBC programming but Jason (mythical), Hercules (mythical) and Pythagaros (I'm sure he proved something) in the same programme set in a mythical land? Hercules was the greatest of Greek heroes - this guy needs a serious transformation.

Now I am assuming "Jason" is he of Jason and the Argonauts. Do the beeb not know their basic Greek mythology? Theseus slew the Minotaur.

This nonsense is aimed at a family audience which will leave a whole bunch of kids with a totally inaccurate view of Greek mythology.

Even more worrying my wife is capable of watching Strictly, Atlantis and Casualty. I may take up knitting.

Edited by Paul

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Saw an advert for The Blacklist, looks interesting, anyone know anything about it?

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We watched Atlantis last night. I'm usually a big supporter of BBC programming but Jason (mythical), Hercules (mythical) and Pythagaros (I'm sure he proved something) in the same programme set in a mythical land? Hercules was the greatest of Greek heroes - this guy needs a serious transformation. Now I am assuming "Jason" is he of Jason and the Argonauts. Do the beeb not know their basic Greek mythology? Theseus slew the Minotaur.This nonsense is aimed at a family audience which will leave a whole bunch of kids with a totally inaccurate view of Greek mythology. Even more worrying my wife is capable of watching Strictly, Atlantis and Casualty. I may take up knitting.

Pythagoras was the right-angled triangle bloke. A-squared plus B-squared = C-squared.

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Last breaking bad tonight. Devastated.

Dexter finale was @#/?. Hoping for better.

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Last breaking bad tonight. Devastated.

Dexter finale was kean. Hoping for better.

Ha, beat me to it (on both counts!!). Desperately trying to avoid spoilers for BB!!

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Breaking Bad was remarkable from episode one right through to the finale

One of the best series I have ever watched

I am worried though, Hank never went back for Huell which means he is still sat waiting for him

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Last breaking bad tonight. Devastated.

Dexter finale was kean. Hoping for better.

dexter finale was totally forgettable, which is a shame(but if im being honest that's no different than its last 3-4 seasons)

if just got the final to eps of breaking bad to go and as ever that show still just gets better every episode, the 1st 6 eps of this final run have been the most tense episodes of any show ever, nothing even comes close to it , easily the greatest show ever and probably better than most films from the last 30 years or so imo(and ive watched a lot of shows&films!)

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