Academy & U21s

[Parsonblue]

1 minute ago, Biz said:

 

Promotion was the minimum expectation, and whilst you may prefer to watch Damien Johnson’s reserves go all out to win - the pressure and expectation on both positions is incomparable.

 

That's the key point Biz, and if you to talk to people like Johnson and Dunn who do the job and have played at the highest level they also say that there is no comparison.  Indeed, although it's good to win, at both Under-18 and Under-23 level that isn't really the main objective.  It's about educating players and producing players who are capable of stepping up to the pressure of first team football.  I think the difference is shown by looking at the experiences of Scott Wharton, Matty Platt and Lewis Hardcastle.  Three players who have looked outstanding at Under-23 level but who have gone on loan to clubs in League One and League Two and can't get into the first team.

[Stuart]

2 minutes ago, Biz said:

Not pellets, just disagreed with.

The fact we are arguing about transfers, promotion to the prem expectations, being in a “slide” but still safe says it all.

20 months ago the arguments are about direction of club, agents, ownership, Senior, league one.

Promotion was the minimum expectation, and whilst you may prefer to watch Damien Johnson’s reserves go all out to win - the pressure and expectation on both positions is incomparable.

Do you feel safe? I don’t. Right now - and particularly after the last half dozen or so games - I feel like we’ve been found out and are in a bit of a free fall. Draws aren’t going to save us but will be considered good in the next three matches.

To be completely honest, I do prefer watching Johnson’s teams than Mowbray’s (most of the time) but the feeling of winning is much sweeter when it’s the first team. The point I was making was about style of play. In a club where the reserves were used to bring players into the first team I’d expect the style of football to be the same in both. This would enable the youth players to develop in the positions that will enable them to step up.

Mowbray seems to have an approach of “that’s interesting” and enjoys watching the youth team for what it is and if he sees someone who is fit and works hard he may see a role for them in his side. Not surprise that this rarely translates. Look at Lewis Travis for example, played right back in a title winning team then moved up to play in midfield. Then dropped. With Nuttall it was short term until Samuel was fit again. Then dropped. The fact that there aren’t many other examples tells it’s own story.

The only reason the discussion has gone from Venkys is because they have stopped talking. What happened on here as soon as there was a photo of TM with Balaji Jr? Our debt situation is precarious. It’s exactly the same as the situation Bolton were in before Eddie Davis died - look at the state they are in - and he loved the club!

[DanielMB]

11 minutes ago, Parsonblue said:

That's the key point Biz, and if you to talk to people like Johnson and Dunn who do the job and have played at the highest level they also say that there is no comparison.  Indeed, although it's good to win, at both Under-18 and Under-23 level that isn't really the main objective.  It's about educating players and producing players who are capable of stepping up to the pressure of first team football.  I think the difference is shown by looking at the experiences of Scott Wharton, Matty Platt and Lewis Hardcastle.  Three players who have looked outstanding at Under-23 level but who have gone on loan to clubs in League One and League Two and can't get into the first team.

So your point is that we are not very good at producing first team players? With the amount of money we are putting in to the academy we should be getting some outcome of that. Nyambe and Raya have made the step up but we should really be seeing that on a regular basis. Tomlinson, Hardcastle, Wharton, Platt, Travis haven't been able to do so. The question is why is that? Is Mowbray to careful? Is it a mentality problem? Its interesting to look at Hardcastle because he was able to play mens football on a regular basis when he was 16-17. Now he is 20 and can't get any playing time at a level marginally higher than Salford 3 years ago.  The example with Leeds is quite interesting because 2 years ago they were a club in turmoil, and now they have the guts/space/stability to rely on multiple youth players.

Edited December 24, 2018 by DanielMB

[Mattyblue]

20 minutes ago, Parsonblue said:

 It's about educating players and producing players who are capable of stepping up to the pressure of first team football.  I think the difference is shown by looking at the experiences of Scott Wharton, Matty Platt and Lewis Hardcastle.  Three players who have looked outstanding at Under-23 level but who have gone on loan to clubs in League One and League Two and can't get into the first team.

Why aren’t we, in your opinion?

[Tom Stinny]

Could it be a case of the youth players who have gone out on loan to other teams have gone to teams that have or are struggling to compete? 

 

You look at Leeds and I think there's an element of because they are doing so well and on a roll of momentum and good performances, that any young lad who comes in has that bit extra drive and security that's given off from the experienced Pros.

 

If these players have done better than others in their age group yet they can't compete at mens level when possibly lesser players can then the management needs to be looked at and the transition from youth football to adult football needs to be assessed.

 

It also won't help if both teams play completely different styles. If the youths are on the front foot and play but the experienced team grind out results it can be difficult to adapt.

 

Norwich are another team who have a good fraction of the squad from their youth team. Think I saw somewhere that the average age of their defence was 20-21.

 

To me we should have 19-20 experienced Pros to make up the core of the squad with 4-5 places for young academy players. Travis as an example can't get near because we have something like 9-10 central midfielders plus another 2-3 who can convert to there. If you look around at other positions in the team it will probably be something similar.

 

Only three positions for me where a youth player could have a chance is left back, winger or forward. Everywhere else it packed.

 

There must be a young quick winger in then youth team if anyone knows? Surely being in the squad would do no harm and could surprise a few. Everything it to predictable with the team at the moment. Most could probably name the next team selection right now.

[blueboy3333]

2 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

I can say I’ve not seen Travis, as an example put a foot wrong when called upon.

To be fair he made a stupid tackle and got sent off at Pompey. He fell out of favour after that. He doesn't seem to be learning. When he came on the other week at home (SWFC?) he went through someone within minutes of coming on and could easily have been carded. 

I think he needs to go on loan. I have no idea why, after signing so many MF's, Mowbray has kept him at the club. Travis could potentially be a very good player. He needs to go out and learn how to reign in his enthusiasm and not be rash. By the start of next season he should be a serious contender for a midfield place in our first team. 

[blueboy3333]

Leeds will have a far bigger pool of players to choose from. That's just basic geography. 

I actually think our Academy does OK. Even back in the Prem years we rarely produced players for our first team. Most ended up in L1 or lower. The Duff's, Dunn's and Jones' were the exceptions. What is encouraging now is that we seem to be picking up the good quality cast-offs from the likes of Man U and L/pool - players like Travis, Butterworth and Rankin-Costello. 

Having the likes of Raya, Lenihan & Nyambe as 1st team regulars is a favourable reflection on our Academy. Travis, Wharton and that young keeper Fisher will hopefully be added to that in the next season or two. maybe even R-Costello and Butterworth. 

 

 

[Mattyblue]

Totally get the geography thing. One of the lads that played yesterday was from York, as an example. So a vast area to draw from.

Just find it striking that it seems to be all about young English players as signings, yet we haven’t blooded any of our own this season...

[JBiz]

1 hour ago, Stuart said:

Do you feel safe? I don’t. Right now - and particularly after the last half dozen or so games - I feel like we’ve been found out and are in a bit of a free fall. Draws aren’t going to save us but will be considered good in the next three matches.

To be completely honest, I do prefer watching Johnson’s teams than Mowbray’s (most of the time) but the feeling of winning is much sweeter when it’s the first team. The point I was making was about style of play. In a club where the reserves were used to bring players into the first team I’d expect the style of football to be the same in both. This would enable the youth players to develop in the positions that will enable them to step up.

Mowbray seems to have an approach of “that’s interesting” and enjoys watching the youth team for what it is and if he sees someone who is fit and works hard he may see a role for them in his side. Not surprise that this rarely translates. Look at Lewis Travis for example, played right back in a title winning team then moved up to play in midfield. Then dropped. With Nuttall it was short term until Samuel was fit again. Then dropped. The fact that there aren’t many other examples tells it’s own story.

The only reason the discussion has gone from Venkys is because they have stopped talking. What happened on here as soon as there was a photo of TM with Balaji Jr? Our debt situation is precarious. It’s exactly the same as the situation Bolton were in before Eddie Davis died - look at the state they are in - and he loved the club!

Do I feel safe? Well to be honest it’s impossible after the previous few years and that includes the constant worry about the debt, but in comparison I’d say we are in a better position overall (squad, league, staff, structure, direction, depth etc) than Bowyer ever had us, and as you know, I rated the job he did too.

Style of play is subjective though, so I’d probably argue THERE IS a continuous style idea through all the squads, the problem is, every change of manager will move that basic ideology. If we changed the it suit every change of manager since the Rao’s arrived, it’s no wonder we aren’t producing enough.

Travis and co are examples of players on the brink, but I still subscribe to the idea that loaning players out first should happen. Calling it “title winning” makes it seem more than it should, I’m not saying it’s a non-achievement but it means nothing in relation to the step up to the first team in my view.

Travis, Butterworth, Nuttall - 6 months at league 1/2 level and they’ll come back better players. The ones that struggle to break through into those lower league teams simply aren’t ready to be in ours. Even if they’ve been fantastic in the u23.

[Stuart]

25 minutes ago, Biz said:

Do I feel safe? Well to be honest it’s impossible after the previous few years and that includes the constant worry about the debt, but in comparison I’d say we are in a better position overall (squad, league, staff, structure, direction, depth etc) than Bowyer ever had us, and as you know, I rated the job he did too.

Style of play is subjective though, so I’d probably argue THERE IS a continuous style idea through all the squads, the problem is, every change of manager will move that basic ideology. If we changed the it suit every change of manager since the Rao’s arrived, it’s no wonder we aren’t producing enough.

Travis and co are examples of players on the brink, but I still subscribe to the idea that loaning players out first should happen. Calling it “title winning” makes it seem more than it should, I’m not saying it’s a non-achievement but it means nothing in relation to the step up to the first team in my view.

Travis, Butterworth, Nuttall - 6 months at league 1/2 level and they’ll come back better players. The ones that struggle to break through into those lower league teams simply aren’t ready to be in ours. Even if they’ve been fantastic in the u23.

I meant safe in terms of our league position, form, and immediate outlook. I feel anything but safe. The backdrop in terms of crap owners and debt only serves to polarise the need for promotion.

How can you make a statement about the style of play of the U23s - subjective or otherwise - if you don’t watch them? Sorry but that just smacks of disagreeing for the sake of it. They did win the title. That means they were better than their peers and it serves to show that the problem lies in the transition between the U23s and the first team. If players are asked to attack in the reserves but defend in the first team - a point someone made earlier - then I can see this being a problem. They are being taught one thing and then being asked to do another and then dropped when they don’t quickly re-adjust to a new style of play.

Nuttall, for example has the ball passed to his feet more, or to run onto, in the U23s; meanwhile, Graham is backing in to grab onto a defenders shirt while trapping a launched ball from the back. And people are scratching their heads why Nuttall isn’t as effective as Graham. (Brereton is maybe suffering a similar fate - he used to play well and regularly for Forest - a similar transition problem?). Our team is set up around getting the best out of an aging player. This will need to change, and in my view, before the end of this season (unless we are in the play-off places).

I would agree with your last paragraph but loaned players need to go to a club who will give them an opportunity. There are lots of reasons why players may not get a fair deal. Scott Wharton went back to Lincoln as part of a huge recruitment drive which also saw them bring in the experienced Jason Shackell from Derby - a 34yo now blocking the progress of a 20yo - and Michael Bostwick - a 30yo preferred as his cb partner.

If that’s your own player then it’s your choice, maybe like Graham is similarly keeping out Brereton, but if it’s a loan player then you are stunting their progress and impacting their parent club - which I expect is how Chelsea view we are treating Palmer.

Although he is starting to get a little more of a look in from the bench and in fact covered for Shackell’s suspension in October it remains to be seen if he can force his way in - he may have to wait for an injury to Lincoln’s preferred pairing to get a chance but he has proven to be a more than adequate understudy. Lincoln are unbeaten when he has featured (and has a goal and an assist in his run of three full matches). The experience will be good for him especially if they get promoted and he has to be someone we are still looking at as having a potential future at Rovers. But of course, if he is frozen out or refuses a new contract then some quarters will call him a mercenary. That’s football I guess.

[DanielMB]

Lewis Travis did quite well yesterday. Will he be in the squad for the next game?

[blueboy3333]

https://www.bescotbanter.net/2019/01/mitch-candlin-returns-to-walsall-as.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+bescotbanterfeed+(Bescot+Banter)

Candlin the wind going back to Walsall according to this^

[RV Blue]

U23s beat Chelsea away yesterday and have now won 4 on the bounce in PL2, wish Mowbray used them more.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, RV Blue said:

U23s beat Chelsea away yesterday and have now won 4 on the bounce in PL2, wish Mowbray used them more.

That's a great result,  Johnno's working miracles there. I'd like to see him more involved with the first team to be honest. 

[RV Blue]

17 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

That's a great result,  Johnno's working miracles there. I'd like to see him more involved with the first team to be honest. 

So would I. If he’s still here when Mowbray leaves, I think the job is his.

[Stuart]

Another goal from first team reject Joe Nuttall.

That lad deserves more credit from fans than he gets. Blackburn Council even named the street that the ground sits on after him!

[Proudtobeblue&white]

40 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Another goal from first team reject Joe Nuttall.

That lad deserves more credit from fans than he gets. Blackburn Council even named the street that the ground sits on after him!

Where's Joe Street?

[ChrisPriceBaldSpot]

1 hour ago, Proudtobeblue&white said:

Where's Joe Street?

Just around the corner from Chapmans Close. 

[bluebruce]

12 hours ago, blueboy3333 said:

https://www.bescotbanter.net/2019/01/mitch-candlin-returns-to-walsall-as.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+bescotbanterfeed+(Bescot+Banter)

Candlin the wind going back to Walsall according to this^

I'm wondering whether this might be a sign that Nuttall won't get a loan deal...if he was leaving, there'd be another slot up front opening up in the youth team. Sending him back seems to suggest that no cover is needed there. Although it may simply mean we don't want to make a financial commitment to Candlin as we don't rate him, or that another young forward is coming in. We will see what happens, but Joe definitely needs a loan deal for me (an appearance or two off the bench until that happens wouldn't go amiss either...think he and Brereton should swap roles, as Ben needs match sharpness and Nuttall has done more to earn a crack at the moment).

Edited January 6, 2019 by bluebruce

[Stuart]

1 hour ago, ChrisPriceBaldSpot said:

Just around the corner from Chapmans Close. 

More like Chapmans Lame.

[blueboy3333]

Mowbray is criticised for not playing enough Academy lads (possibly with merit) but what can't be denied is that the Academy system is working. Having the likes of Nyambe, Raya, Lenihan and Travis as regular first teamers is testament to the job that the people running the Academy have done. For a club in a highly competitive area for youth recruitment it is hugely impressive. The system at Brockhall obviously works.

Now we also have the likes of Butterworth being slowly integrated into the 1st team squad. I think Sharpe in the LT hinted that Wharton may start to be included again and that is why Downing has been allowed to leave.

Maintaining the Cat 1 status and developing our own players is going to be vital for us financially. The Academy should pay for itself through the money it saves us in the transfer market. 

[Mattyblue]

I noticed at one point last night we had Raya, Nyambe, Lenihan, Travis, Nuttall on the pitch.

Great to see.

[Admiral Nelsen]

21 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

I noticed at one point last night we had Raya, Nyambe, Lenihan, Travis, Nuttall on the pitch.

Great to see.

And with Butterworth on the bench.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I see just as we recall Wharton because he wasn't playing at Lincoln Jason Shackell, who I assume Wharton would have covered for,  got himself sent off yesterday.

[bluebruce]

5 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I see just as we recall Wharton because he wasn't playing at Lincoln Jason Shackell, who I assume Wharton would have covered for,  got himself sent off yesterday.

I haven't seen anything confirming Wharton has come back yet?