Academy & U21s

[yellowsubmarine]

6 hours ago, queenofewood said:

Tonights Game With the Goals

Thanks for sharing!

[Mattyblue]

Apart from the cup tie against Bolton in which his error led to a goal, Magloire hasn’t got off the Rochdale bench. 

 

[roversfan99]

Just now, Mattyblue said:

Apart from the cup tie against Bolton in which his error led to a goal, Magloire hasn’t got off the Rochdale bench. 

 

Seems to have been a bit of a repeated failing that we send players on loan to clubs who ultimately dont give them game time. Also noticed that Fisher was only a sub for Northampton.

Definitely something that needs looking at, whether we are overestimating the standard that our players are capable of playing at, or need to start putting in small penalties for lack of game time as is becoming common practice, not sure but something needs to change.

[Stuart]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

Seems to have been a bit of a repeated failing that we send players on loan to clubs who ultimately dont give them game time. Also noticed that Fisher was only a sub for Northampton.

Definitely something that needs looking at, whether we are overestimating the standard that our players are capable of playing at, or need to start putting in small penalties for lack of game time as is becoming common practice, not sure but something needs to change.

Agreed. There is no point in our players going on loan if they don’t play.

[chaddyrovers]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

Seems to have been a bit of a repeated failing that we send players on loan to clubs who ultimately dont give them game time. Also noticed that Fisher was only a sub for Northampton.

Definitely something that needs looking at, whether we are overestimating the standard that our players are capable of playing at, or need to start putting in small penalties for lack of game time as is becoming common practice, not sure but something needs to change.

Fisher only signed for Northampton yesterday. 

Do you really think lower league clubs can afford financial penalties? if we do this it is most likely clubs wouldn't sign our players. 

[roversfan99]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

Fisher only signed for Northampton yesterday. 

Do you really think lower league clubs can afford financial penalties? if we do this it is most likely clubs wouldn't sign our players. 

Obviously a financial penalty is not something a team loaning a player will expect to pay, its basically something that ensures that the team loaning the player doesnt just want him to pad the squad out.

You may be right, it may be unrealistic, but we need to be taking far more care loaning our players out. It did seem incredibly unrealistic to loan Magloire to League 1 and expect him to play regular football.

[Reedy You're A Star]

They are better off sitting on our bench, playing U23's football regularly and using our, much better, facilities than sitting on a bench at Rochdale or Northampton, using their, much worse, facilities and still not getting the playing time they need to progress.

[roversfan99]

Absolutely. I think its rare for a goalkeeper totally untested in senior football to go to a league club and play. Raya for example had to go to Southport to get game time.

When I heard that Magloire was going to a League 1 club, I did think this may happen, similar to Platt at Stanley last season.

[Blueandwhitemike]

5 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Obviously a financial penalty is not something a team loaning a player will expect to pay, its basically something that ensures that the team loaning the player doesnt just want him to pad the squad out.

You may be right, it may be unrealistic, but we need to be taking far more care loaning our players out. It did seem incredibly unrealistic to loan Magloire to League 1 and expect him to play regular football.

Not only is it unrealistic, I think it is wrong and ought to be outlawed in my opinion.  There's a lot wrong with the loan system with Chelsea and others stockpiling talent, I think fees should be outlawed as well.  Players should get in teams on merit and merit only.  

Clubs should be able to deal with each other fairly and if they don't then they shouldn't deal with each other.  We have loaned a few players to Rochdale over the years, most recently Sam Hart, right?  If we think they are just padding their squad we don't loan them players in the future.

Magloire seems very highly rated, played one game where he was decent for us and one game where he struggled a bit last season in the Championship, I don't see why we wouldn't expect him to start for what would be expected to be a lower mid table/relegation battling league one team.  Rochdale have conceded 5 in the 5 games not great, not bad.  It is early on the season, let's hope he gets a chance and gets in the team.

[bluebruce]

11 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Seems to have been a bit of a repeated failing that we send players on loan to clubs who ultimately dont give them game time. Also noticed that Fisher was only a sub for Northampton.

Definitely something that needs looking at, whether we are overestimating the standard that our players are capable of playing at, or need to start putting in small penalties for lack of game time as is becoming common practice, not sure but something needs to change.

I don't think we are overestimating the level they can play at (except for when we loaned Platt to League One which was never gonna pan out). If anything I think the loans are sometimes too low down, and if our main team were in the Prem, they'd be loaned higher up the pyramid.

I think it's more that teams are reluctant to risk starting young players in defence, where basically all of the players we have loaned out in recent times play. Especially when they don't own those players to get the eventual benefit of their development. I think attacking players like Butterworth would get a fairer shake.

I agree the situation is starting to get daft and needs looking at. Mowbray seems to get this, since he has been talking about clubs making bigger wage contributions to ensure they want the player and aren't just padding their squads cheaply.

[chaddyrovers]

I also think maybe why Magloire has played much is he has wait for his chance and proved he is good enough just like any other players. 

no club is going to guaranteed any loan player a deffo starter role

[Mattyblue]

A howler in his one appearance (against the Bolton kids) won’t have helped him...

[roversfan99]

8 hours ago, Blueandwhitemike said:

Not only is it unrealistic, I think it is wrong and ought to be outlawed in my opinion.  There's a lot wrong with the loan system with Chelsea and others stockpiling talent, I think fees should be outlawed as well.  Players should get in teams on merit and merit only.  

Clubs should be able to deal with each other fairly and if they don't then they shouldn't deal with each other.  We have loaned a few players to Rochdale over the years, most recently Sam Hart, right?  If we think they are just padding their squad we don't loan them players in the future.

Magloire seems very highly rated, played one game where he was decent for us and one game where he struggled a bit last season in the Championship, I don't see why we wouldn't expect him to start for what would be expected to be a lower mid table/relegation battling league one team.  Rochdale have conceded 5 in the 5 games not great, not bad.  It is early on the season, let's hope he gets a chance and gets in the team.

I would somewhat disagree, indeed I fully see the merit of charging potential penalties, its a way of ensuring that the team loaning a player has plans of using them on a regular basis.

Of course players should play on merit but like a club selling a player, the club willing to loan out a player owns an asset, and the club loaning them is getting the benefit ideally of a player with quality that it could not permanently afford to buy outright..

You mention Chelsea, but they want to ensure that their young players get game time and develop. Abraham, Mount and Zouma all went elsewhere and massively benefited other clubs. 

Look back under Coyle, we stockpiled our squad with players like Byrne, Samuelsen, Hendrie etc, loanees that just padded out the squad because we lacked money at that time. 

[chaddyrovers]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

I would somewhat disagree, indeed I fully see the merit of charging potential penalties, its a way of ensuring that the team loaning a player has plans of using them on a regular basis.

Of course players should play on merit but like a club selling a player, the club willing to loan out a player owns an asset, and the club loaning them is getting the benefit ideally of a player with quality that it could not permanently afford to buy outright..

You mention Chelsea, but they want to ensure that their young players get game time and develop. Abraham, Mount and Zouma all went elsewhere and massively benefited other clubs. 

Look back under Coyle, we stockpiled our squad with players like Byrne, Samuelsen, Hendrie etc, loanees that just padded out the squad because we lacked money at that time. 

league 1 and 2 clubs cant afford to pay these financial penalties. That's how some of them getting into money problems by over paying for players on perm deals or loan deals. 

Clubs like Liverpool and Chelsea or any clubs should not be allow to charge these financial penalties to any clubs

[Blueandwhitemike]

@roversfan99 personally I just don’t think it’s right, I think the way to stop teams padding squads is by talking to them and if you think they are doing that don’t lend them any players in the future, it should be done by managers talking to each other and then up to the player to prove his worth.  I think mostly big clubs like Chelsea abuse the system.  Would you like it if TM dropped Lenihan or Williams for Tosin? 

I, like some others think the loan system needs reworking as it’s too easy for bigger teams to do what I’ve mentioned above.

its fair enough though if you disagree and your argument is fair to your mind I just don’t agree.

[roversfan99]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

league 1 and 2 clubs cant afford to pay these financial penalties. That's how some of them getting into money problems by over paying for players on perm deals or loan deals. 

Clubs like Liverpool and Chelsea or any clubs should not be allow to charge these financial penalties to any clubs

A contract has to be entered in by both parties, the team loaning these players are agreeing to pay these penalties, of course only if they dont play. If clubs arent happy to take on players they wouldnt be normally able to afford, temporarily, knowing that they will have to pay if they dont use them, then you could argue that maybe they dont intend on using them regularly anyway.

To be honest, it may well be financially unrealistic of any clubs that low in the pyramid to agree to potential penalties, but even without them, I definitely feel that we need to look at where we loan players too. It always seemed unlikely that such a rookie CB would play regularly for a League 1 club, surely we should have looked further down initially.

Just now, Blueandwhitemike said:

@roversfan99 personally I just don’t think it’s right, I think the way to stop teams padding squads is by talking to them and if you think they are doing that don’t lend them any players in the future, it should be done by managers talking to each other and then up to the player to prove his worth.  I think mostly big clubs like Chelsea abuse the system.  Would you like it if TM dropped Lenihan or Williams for Tosin? 

I, like some others think the loan system needs reworking as it’s too easy for bigger teams to do what I’ve mentioned above.

its fair enough though if you disagree and your argument is fair to your mind I just don’t agree.

The Adarabioyo situation is a good example. He is a player who was clearly signed with the intention of playing, but ultimately due to luck more than anything he is now out of the team and behind a partnership on the back of 3 successive clean sheets.

I mentioned yesterday that regardless of any potential penalties or risk of him being recalled in January, we must continue with Lenihan and Williams. We have loaned him with the intention of him improving our defence and our position in the process. If we manage to do this but it happens to be without him, financial penalties would be a small price to play, but understandable because essentially on the loaning clubs behalf, and the players behalf, a young player at a key stage of his development will have stagnated and essentially wasted 6 months. To be honest, that is a short term view anyway, because we are otherwise lacking in depth in that position, both Lenihan and Williams have injury history, and neither has been without bad patches of form here, so I am sure he will get a chance soon enough anyway.

I actually find the Cunningham loan the strangest out of the 3 loans that we have. Walton and Adarabioyo are 2 young players who need game time, but wont get it at their parent clubs. In theory, everyone benefits, we get a player we couldnt afford who will improve us, and on the expiry of the loan, if all goes well their parent clubs get a better and more experienced young player back. Cunningham is a 28 year old with a proven track record of being a very good LB at Championship level. Why is he being loaned out? That is when you question the reason for loaning players.

[Oldgregg86]

Has nuttal set the world alight at Blackpool yet ?

[Mattyblue]

Think he was injured to start with, came off the bench for 20 minutes on Saturday.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Mattyblue

[Atko's Engine]

Maybe there's also a difference to be drawn between clubs who buy / stockpile players - youth or senior - then loan them out, to the clubs who bring players through their Academy then loan them out for experience.

Chelsea have been the worst example for stockpiling senior players, stopping other clubs from buying them but then they barely ever see first team action before leaving the club. They're very different to the likes of us, who tend to only use the loan market to blood youngsters we bring through from youth.

Also, imo they should ban clubs signing players then immediately loaning them back. To me it smacks of bigger clubs bullying smaller clubs.

[SkipDonoghue]

On 25/07/2019 at 21:07, EwoodGlory said:

Is Piliukaitis still with us? 

No.... He's gone back to Lithuania, Rovers didn't take up the option to sign him when his loan ended

[47er]

On 26/08/2019 at 19:15, Atko's Engine said:

Maybe there's also a difference to be drawn between clubs who buy / stockpile players - youth or senior - then loan them out, to the clubs who bring players through their Academy then loan them out for experience.

Chelsea have been the worst example for stockpiling senior players, stopping other clubs from buying them but then they barely ever see first team action before leaving the club. They're very different to the likes of us, who tend to only use the loan market to blood youngsters we bring through from youth.

Also, imo they should ban clubs signing players then immediately loaning them back. To me it smacks of bigger clubs bullying smaller clubs.

There should be a maximum number of players any club can loan out. And that number should be rather less than Chelsea would like.

[AllRoverAsia]

9 hours ago, SkipDonoghue said:

No.... He's gone back to Lithuania, Rovers didn't take up the option to sign him when his loan ended

I thought we had unearthed a gem. With all the alleged interest from Top 6 PL Clubs for it to end so soon is disappointing. It will be interesting to see how the young lads career develops.

[OJRovers]

The loan system is really imbalanced in favour of Premiership teams, who seem to be able to charge large fees for their U23s to go out on loan. Championship and below are probably paying the wages of their players going out on loan. 

I think we’re in for a reality check with Tosin. Rovers have inexplicably spent £1million of the meagre transfer budget on him, so he’ll get shoehorned into the side as soon as he’s fit.

[SkipDonoghue]

3 hours ago, AllRoverAsia said:

I thought we had unearthed a gem. With all the alleged interest from Top 6 PL Clubs for it to end so soon is disappointing. It will be interesting to see how the young lads career develops.

In all honesty he wasn't all that he was made out to be Jack Vale is far better

I think the talk about other clubs being interested was to try and force Rovers into offering a contract, it was just agents doing what agents do

Edited August 30, 2019 by SkipDonoghue

[Bigdoggsteel]

2 hours ago, OJRovers said:

The loan system is really imbalanced in favour of Premiership teams, who seem to be able to charge large fees for their U23s to go out on loan. Championship and below are probably paying the wages of their players going out on loan. 

I think we’re in for a reality check with Tosin. Rovers have inexplicably spent £1million of the meagre transfer budget on him, so he’ll get shoehorned into the side as soon as he’s fit.

Reality check how?