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Academy & U21s

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Just now, Stuart said:

Very little is the answer.  I guess I’m just going to have to keep repeating myself today, aren’t I? The word was ‘inspire’.

Barr could be brilliant but to be honest I’m quite disappointed with the direction the U23s is going in if an old school coach is going to replace a new school one.

It’s as though the development side has created too many headaches for Mowbray as Johnson brought through some exciting prospects, and he can’t or won’t integrate them into the first team. Playing two youngsters together in a first team game and savaging then afterwards, for example, will be seen as giving them their opportunity. He then removes Johnson from the position and invents a first team role while keeping Venus and Lowe continue in their current roles - changing very little (what does Johnson do?). Now, having advertised for the vacancy we are going to appoint an internal candidate - the cheap option. Let’s hope he is a fantastic recruit and he isn’t just there to keep a seat warm.

 

How do you know that Billy isn't an inspirational coach for those he is coaching?  What do you base your argument that he is old school on?  Have you seen Johnson and Barr take sessions, if so please tell us the difference.  Basically, because it is an in-house appointment, you automatically think it will be a poor one without looking at the coaching credentials of Barr, or Johnson for that matter.  Johnson has moved to a new role to further his own coaching career.  The technical role is one that many clubs are now using so surely it is a good thing that we are constantly evolving our approach to coaching.

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I will help Stuart out here. At no stage did he say Barr's coaching ability was questioned. All he said was that his name does not fill you with excitement if you were looking at joining an under 23 side. Nobody except his immediate family has heard of him. 

But do we will really need a well known name. The under 23s usually are made up of players who have come from within the system with one or two reserve players. 

And now i'm going to be a little critical of Johnson and mowbray here. We need players who are capable of stepping into first team and by that I mean playe the same tactics and style as the first team so that are aware of their role. It's all very well having a good 2nd string if the first team isn't peroforming

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12 minutes ago, Parsonblue said:

How do you know that Billy isn't an inspirational coach for those he is coaching?  What do you base your argument that he is old school on?  Have you seen Johnson and Barr take sessions, if so please tell us the difference.  Basically, because it is an in-house appointment, you automatically think it will be a poor one without looking at the coaching credentials of Barr, or Johnson for that matter.  Johnson has moved to a new role to further his own coaching career.  The technical role is one that many clubs are now using so surely it is a good thing that we are constantly evolving our approach to coaching.

Again. You’ve read what you want to read and not what I’ve posted.

It is my firm belief that Barr would be the cheap appointment. I have not said he would necessarily be a poor appointment just that it doesn’t inspire me.

There are no guarantees with anyone but if Barr was an external applicant, with that CV, would you still be championing him? I doubt it.

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Just now, dingles staying down 4ever said:

And now i'm going to be a little critical of Johnson and mowbray here. We need players who are capable of stepping into first team and by that I mean playe the same tactics and style as the first team so that are aware of their role. It's all very well having a good 2nd string if the first team isn't peroforming

Its a very good point you have made there? First team formation is mostly 4-2-3-1 whilst the under 23's formation is mostly 3-4-2-1 

38 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Very little is the answer.  I guess I’m just going to have to keep repeating myself today, aren’t I? The word was ‘inspire’.

Barr could be brilliant but to be honest I’m quite disappointed with the direction the U23s is going in if an old school coach is going to replace a new school one.

It’s as though the development side has created too many headaches for Mowbray as Johnson brought through some exciting prospects, and he can’t or won’t integrate them into the first team. Playing two youngsters together in a first team game and savaging then afterwards, for example, will be seen as giving them their opportunity. He then removes Johnson from the position and invents a first team role while keeping Venus and Lowe continue in their current roles - changing very little (what does Johnson do?). Now, having advertised for the vacancy we are going to appoint an internal candidate - the cheap option. Let’s hope he is a fantastic recruit and he isn’t just there to keep a seat warm.

 

is Billy Barr a old school coach? 

surely you would agree that bringing Johnson into the first team coaching setup is good thing? 

Depends who applied for job and what each person bring to the table in terms of coaching ability and how good each person is

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7 minutes ago, dingles staying down 4ever said:

I will help Stuart out here. At no stage did he say Barr's coaching ability was questioned. All he said was that his name does not fill you with excitement if you were looking at joining an under 23 side. Nobody except his immediate family has heard of him. 

But do we will really need a well known name. The under 23s usually are made up of players who have come from within the system with one or two reserve players. 

And now i'm going to be a little critical of Johnson and mowbray here. We need players who are capable of stepping into first team and by that I mean playe the same tactics and style as the first team so that are aware of their role. It's all very well having a good 2nd string if the first team isn't peroforming

Thanks.

The flip side of that last para is that, if the second team is performing and producing players who the first team manager cannot utilise and yet still struggles then he is doing something wrong.

It could be argued that the first team needs to change its ethos, not the 2nd string.

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Just now, chaddyrovers said:

Its a very good point you have made there? First team formation is mostly 4-2-3-1 whilst the under 23's formation is mostly 3-4-2-1 

So why would we change the successful U23s approach to match the failing first team formula rather than the other way around?

What has happened this Summer with the development team and management situation stinks. It should have been sorted out ages ago. Promoting Johnson and having nobody lined up is as bad as loaning out your captain on the last day of the window with no replacement, despite already being short in defence.

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5 hours ago, Stuart said:

Not sure what you are driving at here, Bruce. You seem to be trying to make some kind of point and going about it in a very petty way.

The bloke has no pedigree in the game with which to “inspire”. His playing career zenith was at Crewe in the 90s and his management experience is non-existent: a couple of brief caretaker roles.

Does that inspire you in that you look up to him or are impressed? He has done very little in the game to make fans sit up and take notice as far as I’m concerned.

Please do enlighten everyone with where I have said he is a bad coach, if that is the point you are trying to make?

Our U23s are about to go backwards, and all because Mowbray has pulled Johnson and is in no hurry to bring in a credible replacement which, given his recruitment record, is about par. Now we are looking like not bothering and just promoting from within because it’s easier.

Fire away with whatever clever comeback you have lined up. :rolleyes:

Nope, you've taken it entirely the wrong way. I simply wanted to know what caused you to form your opinion. Not sure why that has to be taken as trying to make a point or being petty. No 'comeback' will be needed, as, your sarcastic jabs in this post aside, nobody is insulting anybody.

So thanks for sharing. Now that you have, I'll share my views on those points. I'm less concerned. I don't expect u-23 managers to have management experience. I know some do, but I don't see it as a prerequisite for that level. So that he has any at all is a bonus. Johnson has none whatsoever. I think the height a coach's playing career reached is overrated, for the same reason I don't think top players should walk into top jobs for their first gig. I certainly didn't want Shearer to be our manager before proving himself. It's not the same job. The experience helps of course, but plenty of top managers had uninspiring playing careers.

Barr is also a good ten years older, which I assume he has spent in the game. That should help counter not playing at the top. We give Johnson all the credit it seems, for the u-23s doing well. But as the man pointed out himself, the lads are raised through numerous age levels by numerous coaches to get to where they are. One of those is Barr.

Am I 'inspired' by it? No. But your tone has repeatedly suggested you don't just mean inspired in the literal sense. You have obviously taken the appointment negatively, as you said this will take our u-23s backwards. Personally I'm ambivalent about the appointment. We will see what happens of course. I can't honestly say Johnson gave me any particular thrills, with no real prior coaching experience, which is more important than prior playing experience because that's the actual job. I also wasn't sure Dunn had the right mentality to teach kids. Worked out fine.

Edited by bluebruce

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32 minutes ago, bluebruce said:

Nope, you've taken it entirely the wrong way. I simply wanted to know what caused you to form your opinion. Not sure why that has to be taken as trying to make a point or being petty. No 'comeback' will be needed, as, your sarcastic jabs in this post aside, nobody is insulting anybody.

So thanks for sharing. Now that you have, I'll share my views on those points. I'm less concerned. I don't expect u-23 managers to have management experience. I know some do, but I don't see it as a prerequisite for that level. So that he has any at all is a bonus. Johnson has none whatsoever. I think the height a coach's playing career reached is overrated, for the same reason I don't think top players should walk into top jobs for their first gig. I certainly didn't want Shearer to be our manager before proving himself. It's not the same job. The experience helps of course, but plenty of top managers had uninspiring playing careers.

Barr is also a good ten years older, which I assume he has spent in the game. That should help counter not playing at the top. We give Johnson all the credit it seems, for the u-23s doing well. But as the man pointed out himself, the lads are raised through numerous age levels by numerous coaches to get to where they are. One of those is Barr.

Am I 'inspired' by it? No. But your tone has repeatedly suggested you don't just mean inspired in the literal sense. You have obviously taken the appointment negatively, as you said this will take our u-23s backwards. Personally I'm ambivalent about the appointment. We will see what happens of course. I can't honestly say Johnson gave me any particular thrills, with no real prior coaching experience, which is more important than prior playing experience because that's the actual job. I also wasn't sure Dunn had the right mentality to teach kids. Worked out fine.

The tone of your short jabs was what provoked my comments. So if that was not your intent then I take it back.

Let’s assume he is this unsung hero then who has made Johnson’s job so easy, him stepping up to U23 manager and following his charges up to the next level may be a good thing and provide continuity. It will be very interesting to see how this helps us kick on.

However, forgive me for being cynical but Mowbray’s choice of staff at Rovers has been less than impressive, and less than successful. (Johnson was here two years before Mowbray).

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32 minutes ago, RoversClitheroe said:

Under 18s 3-1 up against Sunderland under 18s

Goals by Durrant, Burns and Garrett

Finished 5-2,good bounce back from the beating Liverpool gave them last week.

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6 hours ago, Stuart said:

So why would we change the successful U23s approach to match the failing first team formula rather than the other way around?

What has happened this Summer with the development team and management situation stinks. It should have been sorted out ages ago. Promoting Johnson and having nobody lined up is as bad as loaning out your captain on the last day of the window with no replacement, despite already being short in defence.

Cos under 23's football isnt 1st team football Stuart. 

Well Tony Crass has been filling in. Who runs the academy coaching staff

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Just now, chaddyrovers said:

Cos under 23's football isnt 1st team football Stuart. 

Well Tony Crass has been filling in. Who runs the academy coaching staff

The pitch, ball and nets are the same size and they have the same number of players.

Do you think Farke would approach games like Mowbray does?

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7 hours ago, Stuart said:

Again. You’ve read what you want to read and not what I’ve posted.

It is my firm belief that Barr would be the cheap appointment. I have not said he would necessarily be a poor appointment just that it doesn’t inspire me.

There are no guarantees with anyone but if Barr was an external applicant, with that CV, would you still be championing him? I doubt it.

Why wouldn't I.  He is a highly qualified coach with an excellent track record in terms of coaching in youth football.  You seem to be confusing first team football with youth development.  Why wouldn't a lad be inspired by a highly qualified coach taking their sessions?  We've been fortunate in having a highly qualified coach - Tony Carss - taking the sessions in pre-season so it's hardly been the shambles you seem to think its been.  We are fortunate to have the likes of Barr, Carss, Sheron etc on our staff.

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Just now, Parsonblue said:

Why wouldn't I.  He is a highly qualified coach with an excellent track record in terms of coaching in youth football.  You seem to be confusing first team football with youth development.  Why wouldn't a lad be inspired by a highly qualified coach taking their sessions?  We've been fortunate in having a highly qualified coach - Tony Carss - taking the sessions in pre-season so it's hardly been the shambles you seem to think its been.  We are fortunate to have the likes of Barr, Carss, Sheron etc on our staff.

Exactly

Just now, Stuart said:

The pitch, ball and nets are the same size and they have the same number of players.

Do you think Farke would approach games like Mowbray does?

Farke struggled in his 1st season in England but Webber stood by him. Look how it turn out for Huddersfield with Siewert. Highly regarded coach but not a first team manager

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Anyone else think Butterworth should really be going out on loan? He is being described as being on the fringes of the first team, but realistically there are too many bodies in front of him at the moment for him to get more than a token cameo or two throughout the season.

Unless I'm mistaken he can play...

Up front - competition being Graham, Gally, Armstrong, Brereton, even Samuel is likely to be given a chance by Tony there first when he is back.

The Dack role - against Dack, Rothwell, Buckley, Downing apparently, and I'm sure most of the strikers would be given a shot there ahead of him if it came to it.

The wide attacking roles - against Armstrong, Downing, Brereton, Gallagher, Samuel (lol), Buckley, Rothwell, Chapman.

I'm probably forgetting a player or two as we have so damned many in those areas. Can't see what will be achieved by keeping him around when he won't get a look in and we don't need the bodies for depth.

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Just now, bluebruce said:

Anyone else think Butterworth should really be going out on loan? He is being described as being on the fringes of the first team, but realistically there are too many bodies in front of him at the moment for him to get more than a token cameo or two throughout the season.

Unless I'm mistaken he can play...

Up front - competition being Graham, Gally, Armstrong, Brereton, even Samuel is likely to be given a chance by Tony there first when he is back.

The Dack role - against Dack, Rothwell, Buckley, Downing apparently, and I'm sure most of the strikers would be given a shot there ahead of him if it came to it.

The wide attacking roles - against Armstrong, Downing, Brereton, Gallagher, Samuel (lol), Buckley, Rothwell, Chapman.

I'm probably forgetting a player or two as we have so damned many in those areas. Can't see what will be achieved by keeping him around when he won't get a look in and we don't need the bodies for depth.

Both he and Buckley need to go on loan but Buckley looks like he is going to get game time with the first XI.

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10 minutes ago, dingles staying down 4ever said:

Both he and Buckley need to go on loan but Buckley looks like he is going to get game time with the first XI.

Aye, Buckley is being introduced from the bench with some regularity. I'm not convinced yet that he's ready, but maybe this game time will bring him along. I suppose we can always review in January whether he needs to go out, and by then he should have enough Championship games for his stock to attract League One teams who intend to start him.

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27 minutes ago, bluebruce said:

Anyone else think Butterworth should really be going out on loan? He is being described as being on the fringes of the first team, but realistically there are too many bodies in front of him at the moment for him to get more than a token cameo or two throughout the season.

Unless I'm mistaken he can play...

Up front - competition being Graham, Gally, Armstrong, Brereton, even Samuel is likely to be given a chance by Tony there first when he is back.

The Dack role - against Dack, Rothwell, Buckley, Downing apparently, and I'm sure most of the strikers would be given a shot there ahead of him if it came to it.

The wide attacking roles - against Armstrong, Downing, Brereton, Gallagher, Samuel (lol), Buckley, Rothwell, Chapman.

I'm probably forgetting a player or two as we have so damned many in those areas. Can't see what will be achieved by keeping him around when he won't get a look in and we don't need the bodies for depth.

Butterworth is the next Rothwell. Too attack-minded so not in Tony’s first team thinking unless absolutely necessary.

He should have been playing against Oldham instead of Rothwell but Mowbray seems to have a hierarchy of The Group, the first team, the second string first team, The Kids - and it was more important that the second string got a run out. Ironically his lack of second string defence and injuries forced him to play The Kids (much to his own disgust).

The talent/potential we have in certainly areas is embarrassing. Hopefully we can develop him and Buckley for the future.

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47 minutes ago, dingles staying down 4ever said:

Both he and Buckley need to go on loan but Buckley looks like he is going to get game time with the first XI.

Buckley must be very impressive in training. He has forced his way on to the periphery of the team in spite of his physicality not because of it. I think that this makes him a little bit special. 

I can see him developing into a Peter Beardsley type in due course. Reminds me of him sometimes. He lacks the outright swiftness of Beardsley but possesses his cunning. Shades of Nigel Clough about him too. 

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33 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Butterworth is the next Rothwell. Too attack-minded so not in Tony’s first team thinking unless absolutely necessary.

He should have been playing against Oldham instead of Rothwell but Mowbray seems to have a hierarchy of The Group, the first team, the second string first team, The Kids - and it was more important that the second string got a run out. Ironically his lack of second string defence and injuries forced him to play The Kids (much to his own disgust).

The talent/potential we have in certainly areas is embarrassing. Hopefully we can develop him and Buckley for the future.

He didn't play against Oldham due to injury.

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33 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Butterworth is the next Rothwell. Too attack-minded so not in Tony’s first team thinking unless absolutely necessary.

He should have been playing against Oldham instead of Rothwell but Mowbray seems to have a hierarchy of The Group, the first team, the second string first team, The Kids - and it was more important that the second string got a run out. Ironically his lack of second string defence and injuries forced him to play The Kids (much to his own disgust).

The talent/potential we have in certainly areas is embarrassing. Hopefully we can develop him and Buckley for the future.

Butterworth was injured Stuart

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26 minutes ago, Colt Seavers said:

Buckley must be very impressive in training. He has forced his way on to the periphery of the team in spite of his physicality not because of it. I think that this makes him a little bit special. 

I can see him developing into a Peter Beardsley type in due course. Reminds me of him sometimes. He lacks the outright swiftness of Beardsley but possesses his cunning. Shades of Nigel Clough about him too. 

What bloody ugly 

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11 hours ago, bluebruce said:

Anyone else think Butterworth should really be going out on loan? He is being described as being on the fringes of the first team, but realistically there are too many bodies in front of him at the moment for him to get more than a token cameo or two throughout the season.

Unless I'm mistaken he can play...

Up front - competition being Graham, Gally, Armstrong, Brereton, even Samuel is likely to be given a chance by Tony there first when he is back.

The Dack role - against Dack, Rothwell, Buckley, Downing apparently, and I'm sure most of the strikers would be given a shot there ahead of him if it came to it.

The wide attacking roles - against Armstrong, Downing, Brereton, Gallagher, Samuel (lol), Buckley, Rothwell, Chapman.

I'm probably forgetting a player or two as we have so damned many in those areas. Can't see what will be achieved by keeping him around when he won't get a look in and we don't need the bodies for depth.

There are 3 young players who won't be going anywhere and one is Butterworth the other 2 are Buckley and JRC, they are expected to try and break into the 1st team, but for this to happen they will need a chance, will they get it? Time will tell

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18 minutes ago, SkipDonoghue said:

There are 3 young players who won't be going anywhere and one is Butterworth the other 2 are Buckley and JRC, they are expected to try and break into the 1st team, but for this to happen they will need a chance, will they get it? Time will tell

Yeh I know that's the plan with them for this season. Just questioning whether for Butterworth it's the right plan. Same may apply to JRC too as he is yet to feature this season. Less competition in a sense for him though as he can play RB too. Still got Bennett, Nyambe and probably Tosin ahead of him there though.

Don't feel we should keep this lads from any decent loan deals that arise on the basis that we may have an injury crisis and then be able to give them a handful of sub appearances.

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