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An old Eaton boys dispute between Cameron and Johnson has led to the referendum that was completely not needed, they the Tories have made a complete and utter hash of any negotiating position that we could have had so now we are left facing a very bad deal or no deal scenario.  We are now left facing a decision that will be bad for all of us particularly the working class.

I feel sorry for the young generation that will grow up in a country which is divided, isolated and lacking the opportunities that we had when we were growing up.

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5 hours ago, Kamy100 said:

An old Eaton boys dispute between Cameron and Johnson has led to the referendum that was completely not needed,

We were promised a referendum under Blairs lot , he got re-elected and it never happened. So credit is due for actually following it through, as a politician delivering a promise is a rare thing.

I honestly think that if there had been a referendum when the champagne socialist and lover of a Federal Europe was in charge the result would have been different, but Blair realised his ultimate aim of snout in the top trough at the EU might be compromised , and after all the secret backdoor work he had inflicted on the UK on their behalf  .

So blame Labour (the new now old one )

Its no surprise that the rat has re-surfaced recently is it?

If there should have been any vote it should have been in 1993 under the very weak (in terms of number of seats) Conservative Government when the EU absorbed the EEC which was what people actually originally voted on twenty years earlier. At that time there was still some very capable politicians from all sides who could have dealt with the aftermath regardless of which way a referendum went , which can not be said about the current lot.

Edited by perthblue02

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14 hours ago, Paul said:

You do understand the two examples given relate directly to the EU? The car parts are shipped around Europe to make cars for the European market, not the USA and Canada. The food under discussion is grown in Europe. How easy do you to think it is to ship tomatoes from the US to the UK.

It's people such as yourself who voted leave that have placed this country in a crisis situation which will take decades to overcome. It's clear you simply do not understand and this why the public should never have been given a vote on the subject.

I hate to tell you this chaddy but you're about to discover the folly of supporting leave along with millions of others who were lied to as they were lead up the garden path. You made the bed and you'll be sleeping in it for a very long time.

I'm still happy with voting out and I stand by that. 

We will get a trade deal but we shouldnt be told what to do by EU leaders and it should be tariff free. 

Also time for UK bill of rights! 

How many on here voted to leave and brave enough to admit on here? I wonder

 

Edited by chaddyrovers

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Why will we get a trade deal? The EU negotiation team isn't telling us what to do, but they're not going to accept proposals that threaten the integrity of the EU. Why should they? 

A tariff free deal means staying in the customs union, so why bother leaving the EU in that case? 

UK bill of rights? What? 

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Chaddy, you didn’t answer my question which was 

 

“Firstly you said you didn’t believe the heads of the car industries, now you do. 

Chaddy, what are you talking about? Do you believe them when they say they can’t accept friction to their just in time supply lines? Yes or no will do.”

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On 21/10/2018 at 01:47, chaddyrovers said:

It could be May last week as PM with Davis and Johnson to replace her as PM and Deputy PM. The talks for us to leave Brexit has been a miss. I wouldnt be paying any leaving fee either. Tell the EU no. Its our money.

No reason why we cant have a similar deal to the EU like USA or Canada or Switzerland. 

We can have our own trade deals with USA, Canada, Mexico, Japan, China. We dont need the EU for this. Really hope we dont agree to any silly deals were the EU can blocked us from making these days. 

I.dont want to another vote. But understand why some do. 

No other party is ready to lead talks and Corbyn or his party shouldnt be near these talks.

Just been reading that Corbyn voted against a tax breaks for low paid workers. The Labour leader has failed to back moves raising the amount employees start to pay tax - which currently stands at £11,850. Corbyn voted against these measures over the past eight years which have saved basic ratepayers £5,634 since 2011. Thought they look out for low paid workers?

 

There is no leaving fee Chaddy. The amount of money we will need to pay represents money we have already committed to pay - we are obliged to pay it whether we leave or not. If we don't pay we will be defaulting on our commitment. If that happens what will that say to any other country that wants to do business with us?

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17 hours ago, Kamy100 said:

An old Eaton boys dispute between Cameron and Johnson has led to the referendum that was completely not needed,

How do you justify that it wasn't needed? Given the result, it was absolutely required, the electorate voted to change course from what would have been had there been no referendum.  Even if the result had been overwhelmingly in favour of staying, I personally had been waiting a long time for the chance to vote against us becoming a member of the EU and was glad to have that chance at last. The only problem with calling the referendum was that it took so bloody long after Maastricht that opinions on it are entrenched and it's left the country divided instead of looking optimistically to our future. 

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12 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

I'm still happy with voting out and I stand by that. 

We will get a trade deal but we shouldnt be told what to do by EU leaders and it should be tariff free. 

Also time for UK bill of rights! 

How many on here voted to leave and brave enough to admit on here? I wonder

 

We will end up contributing to the EU projects we want to keep using. 

To me, the outcome of this whole process will be so different to what was said at the time, and we have learned so much more (impact assessments, actual deal vs easiest deal in history etc)  that there is a definite need to check that the UK voters still want to take the risk of Brexit. If they agree, then so be it.

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4 hours ago, Rover-the-Top said:

How do you justify that it wasn't needed? Given the result, it was absolutely required, the electorate voted to change course from what would have been had there been no referendum.  Even if the result had been overwhelmingly in favour of staying, I personally had been waiting a long time for the chance to vote against us becoming a member of the EU and was glad to have that chance at last. The only problem with calling the referendum was that it took so bloody long after Maastricht that opinions on it are entrenched and it's left the country divided instead of looking optimistically to our future. 

 Internal Tory party problem foisted on the country by a weak prime minister (Cameron) - it was definitely not "needed". The result was skewed by lies and deception and playing towards  the base instinct of the working class (immigration). It's no surprise that immigration has since been quietly forgotten while the real issues - the single market and the threat to Northern Ireland - have come to the fore. Brexit is likely to be the biggest national humiliation since Suez with similar far-reaching consequences - so much for the bright sunny uplands. 

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Certainly feels like the chances of there being a second referendum are going up at by day.

Latest polling suggests now a 3-7% lead for Remain. Government could fall at any time. Could well end up back at square one.

What an absolute mess.

I'm a remainer but to be honest think any outcome and we are buggered, even if we stay in. The country is mortally divided on the EU question, and vast resources will continue to be swallowed up debating this topic back and forth for potentially decades - money and intellectual effort that could be better used looking at climate change, how to effectively tax international companies, the upcoming pensions crisis, how to manage the impact of AI to jobs, or any number of other rapidly approaching risks to our wellbeing.

It's depressing.

If one lesson comes out of this I think for major changes to the status quo there needs to be a super majority (ie. 60% or 66% support, depending how you define it) simply to make sure there is sufficient entrenched support to see it through.

A majority of 1.5% is not really enough to give the government a secure negotiating platform, which is one of the major contributors to this unravelling chaos.

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Cameron's FPTP referendum was always flawed - a 60-40 decision either way and there would have been no arguments. Together with austerity he must be a candidate for one of the worst prime minister's in my lifetime - and there is plenty of competition. 

 

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On 22/10/2018 at 07:08, chaddyrovers said:

I'm still happy with voting out and I stand by that. 

We will get a trade deal but we shouldnt be told what to do by EU leaders and it should be tariff free. 

Also time for UK bill of rights! 

How many on here voted to leave and brave enough to admit on here? I wonder

 

I voted leave and I stand by it. 

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If any of you leavers know how to solve the problem of Ireland then let your leader know because she doesn’t have a clue.

That doesn’t include Chaddy because he has no idea how to get around the damage that friction at the borders will cause. Leavers do tend to fall by the wayside when soundbites and bluster are exhausted. Detail kind of stumps em as well.

good luck everyone.

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Can someone then please provide me with facts regarding the benefits of leaving the EU. No waffle about new trade deals etc. Just factual benefits.

Meanwhile the quote below is Robert Peston's daily report:

"A shocked Cabinet was today told of Department of Transport contingency plans to own or lease roll-on roll-off lorry ferries to make sure vital supplies of goods, food and medicines continue to reach these shores if the UK leaves the EU without a deal. 

According to work commissioned by Chris Grayling, the transport secretary, a possible French decision to reintroduce customs checks could reduce freight coming into the UK via Dover and the Channel Tunnel by around 85%. 

So the UK would in those circumstances have to bring in vital imports to other ports such as the Port of London, Tilbury and Liverpool. 

The proposed scheme is called GOOL, or Government Owned or Operated Logistics. 

“It’s the kind of stuff governments do in a time of war” said one member of the cabinet. “It is as serious as that”. 

That said the best precedent for the plan was the creation by Clement Atlee’s Labour government in 1948 of the National Freight Corporation, which was originally known as British Road Services. 

In the case of GOOL, three options are being examined: buying ships, leasing them or converting military vessels. 

I am told the military option is thought to be the least viable. 

“This was the bombshell in a meeting that contained lots of dull stuff” said another minister. 

He added that perhaps it would be the “sobering moment” that showed colleagues why a no-deal Brexit would be “so damaging”."

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1 hour ago, Paul said:

Can someone then please provide me with facts regarding the benefits of leaving the EU. No waffle about new trade deals etc. Just factual benefits.

Meanwhile the quote below is Robert Peston's daily report:

"A shocked Cabinet was today told of Department of Transport contingency plans to own or lease roll-on roll-off lorry ferries to make sure vital supplies of goods, food and medicines continue to reach these shores if the UK leaves the EU without a deal. 

According to work commissioned by Chris Grayling, the transport secretary, a possible French decision to reintroduce customs checks could reduce freight coming into the UK via Dover and the Channel Tunnel by around 85%. 

So the UK would in those circumstances have to bring in vital imports to other ports such as the Port of London, Tilbury and Liverpool. 

The proposed scheme is called GOOL, or Government Owned or Operated Logistics. 

“It’s the kind of stuff governments do in a time of war” said one member of the cabinet. “It is as serious as that”. 

That said the best precedent for the plan was the creation by Clement Atlee’s Labour government in 1948 of the National Freight Corporation, which was originally known as British Road Services. 

In the case of GOOL, three options are being examined: buying ships, leasing them or converting military vessels. 

I am told the military option is thought to be the least viable. 

“This was the bombshell in a meeting that contained lots of dull stuff” said another minister. 

He added that perhaps it would be the “sobering moment” that showed colleagues why a no-deal Brexit would be “so damaging”."

Strange that this comes out now though. You could almost believe that May and Raab are putting the pressure on MPs to vote for her deal, rather than no deal - which is what they are determined will be the only votes on offer. 

Govt dictating to Parliament. Isn’t that anti-democratic?

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But the EU won't accept May's deal. Parliament can only approve a deal that is made with the EU, and after two years of going round in circles, there is no deal to approve as yet. Its the Irish border that will kill it

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Well the EU might accept some kind of fudge where we leave the EU but remain in some kind of customs “arrangement” AKA customs union until and if we sort out Ireland, in which case she would give Parl a my deal or no deal vote.

Edited by den

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I very much doubt the EU will accept any sort of fudge. It's been clear since day one protecting the member states and in particular the single market has and will remain key for the EU.

And the benefits of leaving the EU are???????

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Thanks for the map chaddy. Confirmation that brexit threatens the integrity of the UK. 

A vote to make the poor poorer, limit opportunities of the young, threaten the economy and break up the UK. Well done, and thanks

Edited by broadsword
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Times writer and brexiteer Melanie Philips on TV this morning, says we can get around the huge road chaos at the ports by waving through vehicles. She argues that in times of emergency - which she says this would be - it would be the right thing to do. Her argument is that the road blocks need not happen.

so there you are, a high profile brexiteer saying we should abandon custom checks at the border. They are getting increasingly desperate. Farage actually made an appearance at Brussels this morning where he called the British civil service “the enemy within” - more desperation.

on top of that we have a concerted effort to argue leaving the EU on WTO rules would be - according to Nigel Evans, no problem at all. Don’t remember vote leave arguing for that during the referendum.

Edited by den

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3 minutes ago, den said:

Times writer and brexiteer Melanie Philips on TV this morning, says we can get around the huge road chaos at the ports by waving through vehicles. She argues that in times of emergency - which she says this would be - it would be the right thing to do. Her argument is that the road blocks need not happen.

so there you are, a high profile brexiteer saying we should abandon custom checks at the border. They are getting increasingly desperate. Farage actually made an appearance at Brussels this morning where he called the British civil service “the enemy within” - more desperation.

on top of that we have a concerted effort to argue leaving the EU on WTO rules would be - according to Nigel Evans, no problem at all. Don’t remember vote leave arguing for that during the referendum.

Hardly any nation in the world survives on WTO rules. They nearly all have individual or collective (often regional) agreements.

Point is it takes time, often years to work through all the detail, in the meantime you try to get by as best you can with duties on your exports.

Nigel Evans is either ignorant or dishonest.

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