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14 hours ago, OldEwoodBlue said:

There are now only 2 possible outcomes :-

 

1. We leave on 29th March with no deal.

2. MPS vote for May's deal (on the 3rd time next week or probably the 4th time the week after) and then there is a hurried short technical extension agreed.

 

 

And if her deal fails again she will seek a longer extension, as I understand it

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19 hours ago, MCMC1875 said:

I see. So if you object to the result, see if you can get a different electorate to vote on it.

I don't have any say in it. It is a significantly different electorate by about 2.5 million as I said.

That change has taken place over a period of almost 3 years----the 2016 referendum was held in June 2016. Views change in that time and so does the electorate.

When I pointed out that 2 million people have died sine the 2016 referendum was held, I wasn't insulting the aged as some posts seem to imply----after all I'm one of them!

I thought you might pick up on the enormous significance of this for this issue in particular. But I'll have to explain.

The people who have (sadly) died are overwhelmingly of the generation who grew up in a Britain outside the EU.

The 2.5 million who have replaced them have overwhelmingly never known life outside the EU. A big majority have embraced the EU, they genuinely see themselves as Europeans.

They have grown up expecting to be able to travel freely throughout the EU, without hindrance, to be able to work there, study there, live there, have access to free healthcare and so on.

They believe the older generation have taken these "rights" away from them. Have damaged their future.

The decision in 2016 was made by a very different electorate than exists now. In addition thousands of British expats were denied a vote, as were EU migrants living and working in the UK.

We should not be bound by a decision that was made almost 3 years ago and which I do not believe would be replicated now.

That's my argued point. I fully expect you to make your usual inane response but I won't be commenting further.

 

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13 hours ago, Husky said:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-brexit-donald-trump-says-14135560

Perhaps she should have listened to Big Bad Don! 😋

 

Indeed, especially since it seems he made matters even worse with North Korea thanks to his "negotiations". As entertaining as he may be to us, he is a cheap political buffoon. Right up there with Farage and Johnson.

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4 hours ago, MCMC1875 said:

I was aware of all your points 47er but why shouldn't we be bound by the decision 3 years ago just because the politicians have dragged their feet? It was never going to done and dusted in 3 months. You seem to be wanting a different result.

I WOULD agree that we should be bound by the decision of 3 years ago IF every significant Brexiteer (JRM, Farage, Johnson, Gove) we’re not quoted at the time as suggesting a second referendum ought to be held once the deal details are thrashed out.

I’m one of those unfortunate people who voted to Leave based on that very sensible proposition. It turned out to be a complete lie, and has recently been significantly defeated in Parliament. Funnily enough those same Brexiteers voted against what was their suggestion.

If those in Parliament are allowed to change their minds and vote accordingly, why am I and at least a dozen people I know, and plenty I’ve seen on Facebook and Twitter not allowed the same courtesy on a decision that will impact our lives far more than the ‘Baby Boomer’ generation who’ve by and large made their money and don’t want to afford us the same opportunities?

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2 hours ago, OnePhilT said:

Indeed, especially since it seems he made matters even worse with North Korea thanks to his "negotiations". As entertaining as he may be to us, he is a cheap political buffoon. Right up there with Farage and Johnson.

He's not quite as bad as May and Corbyn though.

 

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18 minutes ago, Mike E said:

I WOULD agree that we should be bound by the decision of 3 years ago IF every significant Brexiteer (JRM, Farage, Johnson, Gove) we’re not quoted at the time as suggesting a second referendum ought to be held once the deal details are thrashed out.

I’m one of those unfortunate people who voted to Leave based on that very sensible proposition. It turned out to be a complete lie, and has recently been significantly defeated in Parliament. Funnily enough those same Brexiteers voted against what was their suggestion.

If those in Parliament are allowed to change their minds and vote accordingly, why am I and at least a dozen people I know, and plenty I’ve seen on Facebook and Twitter not allowed the same courtesy on a decision that will impact our lives far more than the ‘Baby Boomer’ generation who’ve by and large made their money and don’t want to afford us the same opportunities?

I don't remember "leave, so long as we get another vote on the terms" being the option on the ballot paper? Those who campaigned for Brexit were not and still aren't in a position to shape how it happens. Which probably plays a big part in why we're in a mess, the people making the decisions don't want to deliver what was offered before the referendum.  And lets face it - a deal-or-no-deal referendum wouldn't satisfy those who believe there's now a majority for remaining.  A three (or more) way question would risk not producing any majority. Remain vs May's deal would alienate those who feel the deal isn't actually leaving the EU.  And in any case, if the first vote wasn't acted on, why should it be different for a second, or third, or fourth, etc? 

 

As for your last comment, I think that's utter nonsense - I'd expect the "baby boomers" would point out their opportunities came before the EU was formed; they voted to join the EEC and were completely misled as to what it would become; they've now voted out to give the youth chances again that they don't yet appreciate.  Honestly, what motive would they have to be spiteful?

 

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Rover-the-Top said:

As for your last comment, I think that's utter nonsense - I'd expect the "baby boomers" would point out their opportunities came before the EU was formed; they voted to join the EEC and were completely misled as to what it would become; they've now voted out to give the youth chances again that they don't yet appreciate.

The political and economical landscape has changed since then, though. Today's economy is largely service-based and, with that, small and even medium businesses - supposedly the backbone of our economy today - rely HEAVILY upon providing services to large businesses who, in turn, have to flourish in order for smaller businesses to do the same. Few people seem to acknowledge this because of the aforementioned cliche - that small businesses are the backbone of the economy.

Returning to a model that might have suited a more nationalised and production-based economy 50 years ago - and one that relied a lot more on our natural resources, such as coal - will, in today's model, not work - in my opinion. Some big businesses have already ceased or relocated production elsewhere due to the uncertainty of the economy, and potentially favourable costs and tax rates - it is simply not a healthy thing for this economy of today, and production industries are not suddenly going to sprout up - in fact, they have already given their indications if you look around.

But all of the comments you see in this thread highlight the sad bit about all of this. The government asked for our opinion on what we should do. Some people are more bothered by the economy. Some people are more bothered about sovereignty. Some people think this country has enough problems of its own without having deal with immigrants on top of that. Some people don't care one way or the other. We all think we're right. The likelihood is that none of us probably are entirely right, and perhaps we all are right in some small way.

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15 minutes ago, OnePhilT said:

The political and economical landscape has changed since then, though. Today's economy is largely service-based and, with that, small and even medium businesses - supposedly the backbone of our economy today - rely HEAVILY upon providing services to large businesses who, in turn, have to flourish in order for smaller businesses to do the same. Few people seem to acknowledge this because of the aforementioned cliche - that small businesses are the backbone of the economy.

Returning to a model that might have suited a more nationalised and production-based economy 50 years ago - and one that relied a lot more on our natural resources, such as coal - will, in today's model, not work - in my opinion. Some big businesses have already ceased or relocated production elsewhere due to the uncertainty of the economy, and potentially favourable costs and tax rates - it is simply not a healthy thing for this economy of today, and production industries are not suddenly going to sprout up - in fact, they have already given their indications if you look around.

I'm not aware of anyone advocating we should start relying on coal?  The political and economic landscape has changed, that's a pretty solid argument for breaking free from a project that is stuttering along. It's unlikely we'll get another chance if we don't take it now.

 

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2 hours ago, Rover-the-Top said:

I'm not aware of anyone advocating we should start relying on coal?  The political and economic landscape has changed, that's a pretty solid argument for breaking free from a project that is stuttering along. It's unlikely we'll get another chance if we don't take it now.

 

All I see or hear from brexiteers are soundbites. 

Practically - figures and numbers - how will we be better off after brexit individually or collectively?

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I'm a baby boomer. My parents lived through the depression and its aftermath and then the war. Hardly what I'd call the best times I have scarcely known anything other than EEC followed by EU. And overall I've had a good life so far. 

3 hours ago, MCMC1875 said:

 

It was the 'baby boomer's' parents who has the best times.

 

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10 hours ago, OnePhilT said:

Indeed, especially since it seems he made matters even worse with North Korea thanks to his "negotiations". As entertaining as he may be to us, he is a cheap political buffoon. Right up there with Farage and Johnson.

May says Trump advised her to "sue the EU"! pretty useless advice from a man way out of his depth.

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7 hours ago, MCMC1875 said:

I never heard a second referendum mentioned 3 years ago.

It was the 'baby boomer's' parents who has the best times.

The baby boomer's parents had very hard lives for most of it.. They survived the Great Depression and then had to fight and otherwise support their country in WW2. My father was fighting in Germany, my mother was doing long shifts at Philips, day and night. This was compulsory, she couldn't turn it down for something better,

They then faced 5 years of austerity, including rations, which I just about remember. In retrospect, the late 50's and the sixties were the "Golden Years" and they and I enjoyed them.

But bloody hell did they deserve them. They were the finest generation of all, nothing but awe and admiration for them.

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2 hours ago, 47er said:

The baby boomer's parents had very hard lives for most of it.. They survived the Great Depression and then had to fight and otherwise support their country in WW2. My father was fighting in Germany, my mother was doing long shifts at Philips, day and night. This was compulsory, she couldn't turn it down for something better,

They then faced 5 years of austerity, including rations, which I just about remember. In retrospect, the late 50's and the sixties were the "Golden Years" and they and I enjoyed them.

But bloody hell did they deserve them. They were the finest generation of all, nothing but awe and admiration for them.

My Dad was a Second World War Japanese prisoner of war and worked on the death railway. After coming home and being refused a war pension by the government of the day, even though he’d suffered all that he went through, contracting Malaria, Dysentry and Beri Beri. Fortunately the royal British legion took his case up and won him a pension. Afterwards he was a joiner on labourers wages. He had it easy?

Isnt this just another reason why a united Europe is in everyone’s interest? We are all safer working together.

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As another baby booner, 64, I know my parents lived through hard times and struggled to give myself and my sister what they felt we deserved. And the outcome?

I'm part of a golden generation, we've had it all. Peace, free education, jobs galore to chose from, affordable property prices, rampant property price inflation giving security in retirement, able to retire at 62, decent pension, fantastic services, easy travel, the list is almost endless.

All this while in the EEC and EU.

Yes there were some tough times when bringing up three kids but it was only money. Nothing compared to our parents generation. I've had a fantastic life living in the European Union. I am a European it is where I belong.

Then we have people leading us and voters telling us how wonderful it will be when we leave. It leaves me speechless.

I know people who voted leave, I read this thread and others on other sites. I'm STILL waiting, three years now, for a leave voter to offer a single significant benefit to leaving.

Not one leave supporter is capable of offering a coherent logical argument for destroying our economy and our children's future.

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4 minutes ago, Husky said:

Is there anyone here that would see May's deal as a satisfactory outcome?

I don't see it as a satisfactory outcome but it would be better than nothing. I say this only because as I understand it the Withdrawal Agreement establishes the ground rules for future negotiation. Once we leave we are faced with years of discussion centred on the future relationship with the EU.

If I was young and single I'd be getting out of this country as fast as possible.

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24 minutes ago, Husky said:

Is there anyone here that would see May's deal as a satisfactory outcome?

Me - out of fear that a no-deal could still happen, and I don't think we will get to second referendum and cancel Brexit. May is taking a lot of stick, but I think people are rejecting it for very different reasons - no withdrawal agreement is the pits. Although I would class my satisfaction as relief that the lesser of two bad outcomes has been chosen.

A transitonal period at least allows me to buy a bit of time and plan properly - something that I STILL can't do at the moment. If no-deal was to happen in two weeks' time, I would immediately need to arrange expensive health insurance, arrange for an international driving permit, and I have no idea what else. I am hearing that residency rights are protected (the government still hasn't officially said anything - I just heard that from somebody who went to get their permit recently). In short, I would have to very quickly sort out at least a few things - with costs attached - to legalise myself as a third-country national.

The worst thing, though, would be the damaged exchange rate. My money is earned and taxes paid in the UK (although the latter might change for me shortly). I have to transfer living funds here, obviously, but the exchange rate will take a big drop for the worse - and there's no telling how long it would take to recover, nor that it ever will. The strength of the pound is bad enough as it is (the pound is about 15% worse against the Euro/Kuna than it was 2.5 years ago) - which means rearranging my finances back in the UK to accommodate, and basically being able to afford less than I can at the moment.

Ultimately, I don't want us to leave the EU, but May's deal at least softens the blow over the next couple of years for us.

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45 minutes ago, OnePhilT said:

Me - out of fear that a no-deal could still happen, and I don't think we will get to second referendum and cancel Brexit. May is taking a lot of stick, but I think people are rejecting it for very different reasons - no withdrawal agreement is the pits. Although I would class my satisfaction as relief that the lesser of two bad outcomes has been chosen.

A transitonal period at least allows me to buy a bit of time and plan properly - something that I STILL can't do at the moment. If no-deal was to happen in two weeks' time, I would immediately need to arrange expensive health insurance, arrange for an international driving permit, and I have no idea what else. I am hearing that residency rights are protected (the government still hasn't officially said anything - I just heard that from somebody who went to get their permit recently). In short, I would have to very quickly sort out at least a few things - with costs attached - to legalise myself as a third-country national.

The worst thing, though, would be the damaged exchange rate. My money is earned and taxes paid in the UK (although the latter might change for me shortly). I have to transfer living funds here, obviously, but the exchange rate will take a big drop for the worse - and there's no telling how long it would take to recover, nor that it ever will. The strength of the pound is bad enough as it is (the pound is about 15% worse against the Euro/Kuna than it was 2.5 years ago) - which means rearranging my finances back in the UK to accommodate, and basically being able to afford less than I can at the moment.

Ultimately, I don't want us to leave the EU, but May's deal at least softens the blow over the next couple of years for us.

This of course is why she keeps bringing it back. Eventually she hopes we all feel like fhat: it's better than nothing. It's still blooming awful compared to being members of the EU proper

On 15/03/2019 at 14:28, MCMC1875 said:

 

It won't let me delete this

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Sorry, but if ‘What was on the ballot paper’ is the extent of argument, it shows you haven’t explored the potential impacts of Remain or Leave.

Do you vote Labour/Conservative/LibDem/Independent etc based on the ballot paper, or based on the campaign promises made?

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36 minutes ago, Mike E said:

Sorry, but if ‘What was on the ballot paper’ is the extent of argument, it shows you haven’t explored the potential impacts of Remain or Leave.

26 hours ago, you basically stated that you regret voting Leave and are blaming people like Johnson, Rees-Moggs, Farage, and whoever - for putting forward "very sensible propositions" and then lying about them - and failing to realise that the two of them are Etonian small-minded clowns, and the other is a small-minded clown, who each have absolutely nothing in common with those whose votes they seek to claim. You cannot then go and berate somebody for not exploring the impact of Leave or Remain, given that you yourself have basically admitted to misjudging candidates in the first place.

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Just throwing this one out there too, in case anyone has any input.

I've been reading in various places that ever since the 2016 vote 'ex-pats are divided on Brexit'.

This begs the question, why would a British ex-pat living (or part-living) in an EU country be in favour of Brexit?

The only thing I can think of is that some are being 'forced' to live their by their other half and would rather return home. Why else?

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3 minutes ago, Husky said:

I've been reading in various places that ever since the 2016 vote 'ex-pats are divided on Brexit'.

This begs the question, why would a British ex-pat living (or part-living) in an EU country be in favour of Brexit?

The only thing I can think of is that some are being 'forced' to live their by their other half and would rather return home. Why else?

They might have settled with citizenship of said EU country, maybe. Most expats - and why are they called expats as opposed to immigrants! - are not fully settled in Croatia, but that's probably because the economy isn't great and aren't long-stays. Ironically, Croatia is suffering a bit from entering the EU. But as part of the group I'm a member of on Facebook, the majority think Brexit is bonkers, but I suspect that most who don't probably don't want to say so. Who knows...

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