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I've just been reading an article regarding the governments refusal to publish the report by the Parliamentary Committee on Intelligence and Security regarding Russian interference in the Brexit campaign and the 2017 general election. Now this is sinister, what are they hiding ? It's pretty clear that there has been a clandestine Russian internet campaign to influence the result in favour of Brexit and the Tories. No wonder they want to keep it quiet.

Anyone who reads " Private Eye " will be aware that extremely dodgy Russian " businessmen " ( ie crooks ) living in the UK have been chucking money at the Tory Party over the last few years. They need to be shown the door ASAP.

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50 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I've just been reading an article regarding the governments refusal to publish the report by the Parliamentary Committee on Intelligence and Security regarding Russian interference in the Brexit campaign and the 2017 general election. Now this is sinister, what are they hiding ? It's pretty clear that there has been a clandestine Russian internet campaign to influence the result in favour of Brexit and the Tories. No wonder they want to keep it quiet.

Anyone who reads " Private Eye " will be aware that extremely dodgy Russian " businessmen " ( ie crooks ) living in the UK have been chucking money at the Tory Party over the last few years. They need to be shown the door ASAP.

Dominic Grieve, as ever, flagged this up. The story has been largely ignored by the right wing press - so no surprise there

https://news.sky.com/story/russia-report-row-dominic-grieve-accuses-pm-of-using-no-10-to-spread-propaganda-and-disinformation-11855996

Trump, Johnson, Farage, Tory party, Brexit....all connected to Putin and the Russian state.

It's the Tories who need to be shown the door on Dec 12. 

Edited by jim mk2

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Labour are going to get hammered in this election.

The Brexit Party will take Leave voters from both Labour and, perhaps to a lesser extent now that Boris is in charge, the Tories.

The Lib Dems will take Remain voters from both the Tories and Labour.

The Tories might even take Leave voters from Labour if they're prepared to ditch tribal ways, bite the bullet, and "get Brexit done".

Labour will take... no votes... from any party. Their policy is extending Article 50, going back to Brussels, attempting to arrange a fresh deal with the EU, and then halfheartedly campaign against their own deal. I'd be interested to know if that appeals to anybody on here, and why.

I have a feeling that Labour have many years of trouble and rebuilding ahead of them, and that it'll take longer for them to rebuild than the Tories took after '97.

Edited by OnePhilT

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3 hours ago, OnePhilT said:

.

Labour will take... no votes... from any party. Their policy is extending Article 50, going back to Brussels, attempting to arrange a fresh deal with the EU, and then halfheartedly campaign against their own deal. I'd be interested to know if that appeals to anybody on here, and why.

 

Which is exactly what the Tories have done. May extended, went back and got a deal twice, ERG and other Tories sunk it three times.

johnson got a deal, withdrew it then went back for another extension. Not sure why Labour are the evil ones here.

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3 hours ago, OnePhilT said:

Labour are going to get hammered in this election.

The Brexit Party will take Leave voters from both Labour and, perhaps to a lesser extent now that Boris is in charge, the Tories.

The Lib Dems will take Remain voters from both the Tories and Labour.

The Tories might even take Leave voters from Labour if they're prepared to ditch tribal ways, bite the bullet, and "get Brexit done".

Labour will take... no votes... from any party. Their policy is extending Article 50, going back to Brussels, attempting to arrange a fresh deal with the EU, and then halfheartedly campaign against their own deal. I'd be interested to know if that appeals to anybody on here, and why.

I have a feeling that Labour have many years of trouble and rebuilding ahead of them, and that it'll take longer for them to rebuild than the Tories took after '97.

I wouldn't be so sure. The Farage mob will take votes from the Tories without a doubt. How many is the question. If the Brexiteer vote is split Labour can come through the middle and surprise everybody, just like last time.

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Just now, den said:

Which is exactly what the Tories have done. May extended, went back and got a deal twice, ERG and other Tories sunk it three times.

johnson got a deal, withdrew it then went back for another extension. Not sure why Labour are the evil ones here.

I'm not saying that Labour are the evil ones at all - just that I think they're going to come out of this in a far worse position than the one they're in now.

I can't see many of the electorate wanting Brexit to rumble on for much longer, but Labour are about the only party that have a policy to do just that. If the Tories get back in with a similar number of MPs that they have now, then I suspect we might be rumbling on for longer in any case. Judging from what Ken Clarke said in a recent interview, it seems as though the no-deal boat - at least under current or similar circumstances - has long-since sailed. The game has changed dramatically since Johnson's "do or die" rhetoric, and this election is a huge gamble for him to come back with a majority. It's mainly a question of whether or not Leave voters will oblige him at this crunch-time.

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Just now, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I wouldn't be so sure. The Farage mob will take votes from the Tories without a doubt. How many is the question. If the Brexiteer vote is split Labour can come through the middle and surprise everybody, just like last time.

My personal circle of friends is obviously a small sample, but I don't know of anyone who is switching to voting for Labour from their usual party. I do, however, know at least two Labour voters that will be switching allegiance in a constituency where Labour normally finish second to a dominant Tory candidate, and the Lib Dems finish a very distant third. If that's how it will work this time around - whereby people are scrapping tactics and chances and just voting with their Brexit hats on - then it makes me wonder how unpredictable this election is going to be.

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Just now, OnePhilT said:

toI'm not saying that Labour are the evil ones at all - just that I think they're going to come out of this in a far worse position than the one they're in now.

I can't see many of the electorate wanting Brexit to rumble on for much longer, but Labour are about the only party that have a policy to do just that. If the Tories get back in with a similar number of MPs that they have now, then I suspect we might be rumbling on for longer in any case. Judging from what Ken Clarke said in a recent interview, it seems as though the no-deal boat - at least under current or similar circumstances - has long-since sailed. The game has changed dramatically since Johnson's "do or die" rhetoric, and this election is a huge gamble for him to come back with a majority. It's mainly a question of whether or not Leave voters will oblige him at this crunch-time.

Anybody who thinks Johnson, or anybody else for that matter, will " Get Brexit Done " is deluded. This will carry on for years and years, if not decades. If we do come out people will campaign to return and if we stay in the campaign to leave will carry on. Cameron and the Tories let a very large genii out of a very small bottle and they've no real idea how to get it back into the bottle.

Edited by Tyrone Shoelaces

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Just now, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Anybody who thinks Johnson, or anybody else for that matter, will " Get Brexit Done " is deluded.

I completely and utterly agree, Tyrone. I just watched a recent interview with Ken Clarke, who suggested that most people don't pay any attention to politics until they're asked to vote which, as obvious at it may sound, is an important point. It doesn't matter about how good a candidate's intentions are, or if they've had a recent failure that they managed to place blame elsewhere for; if they can reel of a couple of catchy soundbites that appear in a five-second news reel, that's another vote.

Johnson: "Get Brexit Done"

Swinson: "Stop Brexit"

Corbyn: "Article 50 extension. Negotiate a new deal. Second referendum where we'll campaign against our own deal."

The Brexit Party don't even need a catchphrase. I know which order I'd like the above in, but I also know which one will not be winning extra votes.

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Just now, OnePhilT said:

The Brexit Party don't even need a catchphrase. I know which order I'd like the above in, but I also know which one will not be winning extra votes.

You do sometimes wonder what the Labour party is playing at. Every strategic decision they've had to make over the past 10 years, they've flunked it. 

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In retrospect Labour will probably regret not backing May's deal. Wasn't a great one but better than Johnson's will be.

However there would have been loads of people saying "this isn't Brexit" and the divisive issue would have rumbled on.

We'll probably be back in the EU in about 30 years when our economy has mysteriously not flourished.

 

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Just now, 47er said:

We'll probably be back in the EU in about 30 years when our economy has mysteriously not flourished.

It makes you wonder how many of those thinking that the economic downturn is a small price to pay for "independence" in the "short-term" will still stand by that in just a few years time, let alone 30 years.

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Just now, OnePhilT said:

It makes you wonder how many of those thinking that the economic downturn is a small price to pay for "independence" in the "short-term" will still stand by that in just a few years time, let alone 30 years.

Anything in politics takes 30 years though!

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I sincerely hope there won't be a Johnson majority and sanity about Brexit emerges.

Labour committing to freedom of movement today is a fabulous positive move.

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I really have no sense of this election.

I see the stonking Tory lead in the opinion polls as well as Chaddy does

Yet

I know only three Tory MPs. Well two because one lost the whip and is not standing again. Of the other two, one has a 20k+ majority but fears that might be halved and the other is standing down in a safe London seat privately because he is convinced he would lose to the Lib Dems and someone else can take the Tory fall..

My Lib Dem pals everywhere are ecstatically happy with their canvass returns yet the party is dropping in the national polls. Especially in "winnable" seats and believe me that is stretching what statistically anyone would call winnable.

And this evening I read an Economist article about Gedling in Nottinghamshire; a Labour gain in 2017 and a seat which Johnson could win and still not get a Parliamentary majority. The parties and an opinion poll all point to the Tory challenger being well behind currently.

 

I really really don't get this election at all.

 

If I look at hard election results of real people casting real votes... Local by-elections still show solid Lib Dem progress and smaller but consistent Green advances but now the Tories are gaining votes and Labour losing them reversing the trend before Johnson was annointed by the 70,000. However, the extra terrestrial right is not bothering much with local elections currently so we will see if they can be fussed about standing 600 candidates for Westminster.

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Re: Ian Austin's 'takedown' of Corbyn:

When a person who has received money from 6/7 different entities/people employed by/linked to the Israeli government accuses you of antisemitism, chances are they're just being a paid-for prick.

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It seems to me that if you criticise Israel at all, some people consider you to be anti-Semitic.

I think that is rubbish.

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2 hours ago, 47er said:

It seems to me that if you criticise Israel at all, some people consider you to be anti-Semitic.

I think that is rubbish.

I heard somewhere that a Labour candidate was standing down because she'd been " called out " for comparing the state of Israel to a child that has been abused and has grown up to be an abuser. To me that is fair comment, Israel is fast becoming as reprehensible a nation as the old South Africa. 

Having said that I also heard another candidate is standing down after calling a Jewish guy " Shylock ". That's going too far for me and he was right to stand down.

I'm not a member of the Labour Party but Mrs Shoelaces is so consequently I know lots of Labour Party members quite well. I've never heard any one of them make an anti semitic remark ever. At the risk of upsetting Jewish members of the board, the thing is you aren't a subject of conversation. It's a non issue as far as I'm concerned, nobody I know is remotely interested.

What has wound people up is the way it's been used by the right wing of the Labour Party as a stick to beat Corbyn and the left. The right have always seen the Labour Party as their own private fiefdom and they don't like it when they don't have control. The bottom line is the likes of Austin, Lady Hodge, that dickhead who " represents " Barrow, that other dickhead who has just been enobled by the Tories would rather see the Tories win than have a left leaning Labour government in power. It's as simple as that really. The Blair years led to a lot of tossers being elected as Labour MP's and now, when the chips are really down, they are showing their true colours.

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Just now, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I heard somewhere that a Labour candidate was standing down because she'd been " called out " for comparing the state of Israel to a child that has been abused and has grown up to be an abuser. To me that is fair comment, Israel is fast becoming as reprehensible a nation as the old South Africa. 

Having said that I also heard another candidate is standing down after calling a Jewish guy " Shylock ". That's going too far for me and he was right to stand down.

I'm not a member of the Labour Party but Mrs Shoelaces is so consequently I know lots of Labour Party members quite well. I've never heard any one of them make an anti semitic remark ever. At the risk of upsetting Jewish members of the board, the thing is you aren't a subject of conversation. It's a non issue as far as I'm concerned, nobody I know is remotely interested.

What has wound people up is the way it's been used by the right wing of the Labour Party as a stick to beat Corbyn and the left. The right have always seen the Labour Party as their own private fiefdom and they don't like it when they don't have control. The bottom line is the likes of Austin, Lady Hodge, that dickhead who " represents " Barrow, that other dickhead who has just been enobled by the Tories would rather see the Tories win than have a left leaning Labour government in power. It's as simple as that really. The Blair years led to a lot of tossers being elected as Labour MP's and now, when the chips are really down, they are showing their true colours.

I was only thinking the other day that there is little difference between Israel and Apartheid South Africa but why is it apparently a crime to say so?

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16 minutes ago, 47er said:

I was only thinking the other day that there is little difference between Israel and Apartheid South Africa but why is it apparently a crime to say so?

Netanyahou has done an enormous disservice to Israel and all people of the Jewish faith by labelling any criticism of his vile corrupt regime "anti-semitic".

Having said that, significant elements of the British hard left are instinctively anti-semitic in the traditional usage of the term. 

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I don't think that Corbyn is "anti-semitic" but he clearly believes (with some justification) that Israel has done bad things.  The problem is that in modern media/society everything has to be either 100% Black or 100% white there is no middle ground, so ergo any criticism of Israel is quickly labelled as "anti-semitic" just as anything to do with "immigration" is often labelled as being racist/not inclusive.

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Ah well, at least the Tories are squeaky clean and not lead by a proven liar and racist.

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1 hour ago, philipl said:

Netanyahou has done an enormous disservice to Israel and all people of the Jewish faith by labelling any criticism of his vile corrupt regime "anti-semitic".

Having said that, significant elements of the British hard left are instinctively anti-semitic in the traditional usage of the term. 

That's not been my experience to be honest Phillip. The extreme dislike of capitalism and capitalists doesn't have any religious undertones. After all a significant minority of the leading lights of the early Socialist movements were Jewish and have subsequently become icons for young socialists.

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