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The EU has provided us with 70 years of "peace and wealth". HA! What a load of old tosh. I voted remain for Europe but Jim doesn't half come out with some claptrap at times.

Europe did a lot for Ukraine and Georgia facing Russian aggression.....not. Which, although not member states, are our European allies. We should have done more to protect them too. 

One of the 27 member states has the wonderful accolade of being one of the last remaining dictatorships in Europe - Hungary.

Italy and Greece - bankrupt and have both seen far right parties in power.

Bulgaria & Romania - both severely impoverished 'member states' and, like Poland, suffer from skilled labour shortages following their populations exodus to other, richer EU states.

Turkey is currently a 'candidate country'. This being a nation that not so far back imprisoned hundreds of journalists and opposition leaders in what was described as a purge of resistance.

The EU is cumbersome and bureaucratic. As a trading bloc and a common market it is fantastic, which from my little knowledge of the EU, I believe was its original intention only. It certainly hasn't achieved its intention of cooperation and mutual trust. The Euro collapsing and practically enslaving Greece to the EU is also a sign that the Union cares more about some states than it does others. 

Edited by Dreams of 1995

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1 hour ago, Mike E said:

As far as I'm aware, these Conservatives haven't apologised for the deaths of over 100,000 disabled people over the past decade. Attributed by the UN specifically to the austerity programme, the vast majority being suicides.

 

49 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

The majority of 100,000 deaths were suicide? That seems wrong. Do you have the data to show us this?

Will retract. The only sources I can find for this are opinion pieces, although I was sure it was some sort of study piece from a journal.

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The ECSC as it originally was did stop France and Germany from whacking the crap out of each other by binding them together. It also helped Spain transition to a democratic system after 40 odd years of Franco. The problem is that it has lost it's way and is neither a free trade area, nor a United States of Europe, as envisioned by Churchill, Schuman and Adenauer. It's a bit of a dog's dinner like the way the tiers of government are in the UK.

Still, walking out with no proper future relationship or trade deal is very stupid indeed. I hope brexiteers will be happy to see all sorts of chaos as we leave a load of trade deals and agreed standards between EU countries and the rest of the world. Replacements will take years to renegotiate, and we'll be in a weaker position as it is easier to bully and manipulate a country on it's own, and with many assets already foreign owned. 

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5 minutes ago, Norbert Rassragr said:

The ECSC as it originally was did stop France and Germany from whacking the crap out of each other by binding them together. It also helped Spain transition to a democratic system after 40 odd years of Franco. The problem is that it has lost it's way and is neither a free trade area, nor a United States of Europe, as envisioned by Churchill, Schuman and Adenauer. It's a bit of a dog's dinner like the way the tiers of government are in the UK.

Still, walking out with no proper future relationship or trade deal is very stupid indeed. I hope brexiteers will be happy to see all sorts of chaos as we leave a load of trade deals and agreed standards between EU countries and the rest of the world. Replacements will take years to renegotiate, and we'll be in a weaker position as it is easier to bully and manipulate a country on it's own, and with many assets already foreign owned. 

I think the original aim of uniting Western Europe in a political and economic association was a good one and I wish Britain had been in it from the start.

It went wrong to the extent it did when the number of states vastly increased, it included states who had a different interpretation of western values and it became more unwieldy.

When the EU took on States on Russian borders after promising the Russians it wouldn't ,a humiliated Russia woke up and struck back.

 We look friendless and clueless. If we thought we could forge a new friendship with the USA-----think again.

Couldn't agree more with your 2nd para. The new Sick Man of Europe is what we'll be.

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Norbert Rassragr said:

Still, walking out with no proper future relationship or trade deal is very stupid indeed. I hope brexiteers will be happy to see all sorts of chaos as we leave a load of trade deals and agreed standards between EU countries and the rest of the world. Replacements will take years to renegotiate, and we'll be in a weaker position as it is easier to bully and manipulate a country on it's own, and with many assets already foreign owned. 

I think its interesting that after 426 pages of Brexit bluster a pandemic comes along and does probably more damage to the country than Brexit would ever have done.

It could be argued that the Brexit damage is still to come, but its a very different playing field now than it was 6 months ago.

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The economic damage of the pandemic is estimated to be about £300bn;  Brexit is estimated to have cost the country about £220bn in lost GDP so far - assuming there is no hard Brexit, in which case the figure will be higher.  There is then the continuing loss of GDP over the years through less trade from leaving the single market

The virus damage could have been alot less if we had a competent government; the Brexit damage to the UK is entirely self-inflicted.

Dreams of 1995 says he has "little knowledge"  of the EU, and for once, he's right. 

 

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Good old Nigel! Wondered when we'd hear from him again! Doesn't like to be left out.

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27 minutes ago, 47er said:

Good old Nigel! Wondered when we'd hear from him again! Doesn't like to be left out.

Love him or loath him, I can’t think of another public figure, or MP that has changed the political landscape like Nigel Farage........anyone?

He stuck one up Cameron and Osborne with equal measure, he’s a boil on the establishments arse.

Maybe it’s time to close the Brexit thread, it’s all over isn’t it?

Edited by Gav

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8 hours ago, jim mk2 said:

The economic damage of the pandemic is estimated to be about £300bn; 

This is what gets me a bit.  You'd have thought the idea would be take a massive hit on the economy, the reason, to avoid deaths. They spent all the money and have the most deaths.  Surely this is a complete feck up. 

Revidge's argument for targeted lockdown for elderly and vulnerable might have been the way to go for us.

Edited by Sparks Rover

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12 hours ago, Gav said:

I think its interesting that after 426 pages of Brexit bluster a pandemic comes along and does probably more damage to the country than Brexit would ever have done.

It could be argued that the Brexit damage is still to come, but its a very different playing field now than it was 6 months ago.

Covid 19 lopped 8% off GDP

No deal Brexit is going to lop another 8% off.

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13 hours ago, 47er said:

I think the original aim of uniting Western Europe in a political and economic association was a good one and I wish Britain had been in it from the start.

Britain was asked to lead a pan European initiative at the outset. However, when the question was asked the country was exhausted, broke, losing it's empire quickly, and owning up to the fact that the USA called the shots.

There wasn't the energy or impetus to do it, although it should have been an easy decision to say yes. Fast forward 20 years to the early 70's and a weak UK government had to go cap in hand asking to join the club as it was in trouble.

I find it amazing that Britain, the country that has explored the globe like no other, now has a decent chunk of the population - accompanied by a set of influential politicians - who want nothing to do with anything outside its borders. As a proud ex-pat it's tragic to see.

Travel the world. See how others live. Every country you go to you'll find Brits touring and living. They'll give you an insight into the esteem that Britain is still held.

Yet I fear Brexit will end that goodwill earned over generations.

 

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4 hours ago, speeeeeeedie said:

Britain was asked to lead a pan European initiative at the outset. However, when the question was asked the country was exhausted, broke, losing it's empire quickly, and owning up to the fact that the USA called the shots.

There wasn't the energy or impetus to do it, although it should have been an easy decision to say yes. Fast forward 20 years to the early 70's and a weak UK government had to go cap in hand asking to join the club as it was in trouble.

I find it amazing that Britain, the country that has explored the globe like no other, now has a decent chunk of the population - accompanied by a set of influential politicians - who want nothing to do with anything outside its borders. As a proud ex-pat it's tragic to see.

Travel the world. See how others live. Every country you go to you'll find Brits touring and living. They'll give you an insight into the esteem that Britain is still held.

Yet I fear Brexit will end that goodwill earned over generations.

 

100% agreed.

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7 hours ago, Gav said:

Maybe it’s time to close the Brexit thread, it’s all over isn’t it?

Clearly the fact of leaving is established but on what sort of terms is very much in the air. The EU are hoping for a close relationship, (which is what we were promised) and the British government seems determined that we should have as loose a relationship as possible-----the opposite of what was promised.

Right now it seems we will leave without a deal and incur massive taxes and restrictions on our exports to the EU-----our biggest trading partner!!

Please tell me how any of that makes sense.

SO---still plenty to report on and comment.

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8 hours ago, Gav said:

Love him or loath him, I can’t think of another public figure, or MP that has changed the political landscape like Nigel Farage........anyone?

He stuck one up Cameron and Osborne with equal measure, he’s a boil on the establishments arse.

Maybe it’s time to close the Brexit thread, it’s all over isn’t it?

The irony being, he is also the establishment. 
He was an  banker, before joining the Conservative party, then ultimately UKIP. 
Since then, he’s just been an absolute gobshite that loves the attention. 
He was claiming he was ‘skint’ while owning a £3 Million pound gaff and also ironically still drawing a salary from the EU.
Fair play to him though, he’s managed to get a lot of people convinced that he’s a man of the people. 
When in actual fact, he’s as much of a part of the establishment as those he purports to be fighting against. You’ve got to laugh really.

Also, re the thread closure- there’s still a bit to talk about re the deal we get, so I think the thread can probably stay open a little while longer. 
 

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9 hours ago, Gav said:

Love him or loath him, I can’t think of another public figure, or MP that has changed the political landscape like Nigel Farage........anyone?

He stuck one up Cameron and Osborne with equal measure, he’s a boil on the establishments arse.

Maybe it’s time to close the Brexit thread, it’s all over isn’t it?

And he achieved that with one policy - amazing.

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Just now, arbitro said:

And he achieved that with one policy - amazing.

And moreover he changed the political landscape for the worse! What use is he?

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1 minute ago, 47er said:

And moreover he changed the political landscape for the worse! What use is he?

and on top of that he’s a racist last seen on a boat in the English Channel looking for foreigners. 

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1 hour ago, K-Hod said:

The irony being, he is also the establishment. 
He was an  banker, before joining the Conservative party, then ultimately UKIP. 
Since then, he’s just been an absolute gobshite that loves the attention. 
He was claiming he was ‘skint’ while owning a £3 Million pound gaff and also ironically still drawing a salary from the EU.
Fair play to him though, he’s managed to get a lot of people convinced that he’s a man of the people. 
When in actual fact, he’s as much of a part of the establishment as those he purports to be fighting against. You’ve got to laugh really.

Also, re the thread closure- there’s still a bit to talk about re the deal we get, so I think the thread can probably stay open a little while longer. 
 

It's not over until it's over - and it's not over yet.

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37 minutes ago, Dreyski said:

Was he social distancing? He could have stayed at home and done that.

Here he is in the racist Daily Mail patrolling the English Channel looking for some foreigners

 

D5BC61A1-3914-4340-B724-2FED286B5D47.jpeg

Edited by den

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Shame he couldn't do a Robert Maxwell.

If he wanted to look for foreigners he should have spoken to his wife.

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