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Just now, Gav said:

Specifically:

Has Brexit lost us large numbers of jobs?

Has Brexit destroyed GDP?

Has Brexit caused the biggest peacetime deficit ever?

If the answer to those questions is a resounding NO, then it can't be nonsense TS, with respect. 

Just making the point....

 

Has brexit happened yet? 

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2 hours ago, Ewood Ace said:

To be honest whether or not the chattering classes may have to queue a bit longer when of on their European jollies was never a worry for me when voting leave.

 

And travelling beyond Europe broadens it even more.

 

 

It's not the chattering classes as you call them that bother me. It's me. Me who'll be waiting in queues to get on a ferry. Me who'll have to fill out forms or whatever. And I'm not the worst off. Imagine having to do it with 4 kids or elderly relatives who all want to go to the loo while you're filling in forms etc. I'm old enough to remember going on my holidays to Belgium in the mid 60s. It was hard work making sure you didnt fall foul of customs. My dad once got stopped for having too much foreign currency, until he said it ws for all 4 of us. 

You're right that travelling elsewhere also broadens the mind, but there's a lot of Europe I havent seen yet. Brexit wont stop me but I dont see why it has to make things harder than it needed to.

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9 minutes ago, Gav said:

Specifically, to my original point:

Has Brexit lost us large numbers of jobs?

Has Brexit destroyed GDP?

Has Brexit caused the biggest peacetime deficit ever?

If the answer to those questions is a resounding NO, then it can't be nonsense TS, with respect. 

Just making the point....

 

Possibly because Brexit hasn't happened yet. That's Dec 31st.

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20 minutes ago, gumboots said:

It's not the chattering classes as you call them that bother me. It's me. Me who'll be waiting in queues to get on a ferry. Me who'll have to fill out forms or whatever. And I'm not the worst off. Imagine having to do it with 4 kids or elderly relatives who all want to go to the loo while you're filling in forms etc.

 You're right that travelling elsewhere also broadens the mind, but there's a lot of Europe I havent seen yet. Brexit wont stop me but I dont see why it has to make things harder than it needed to.

What terrible problems to have. It almost brought a tear to the eye. 

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23 minutes ago, RoverDom said:

Has brexit happened yet? 

Depends who you ask, Philipl's been in apocalyptic mode for years :P

But on a more serious note, surely you see the irony that all the doom bluff and bluster thats lead the agenda for the past few years on both sides has been trumped by Covid19.

Brexit was never expected to impact on the country the way Covid19 has, Brexit from here on in could be a cake walk really as the fall out from Covid is far more serious, much more far reaching than Brexit will ever be.

Brexit will potentially reap rewards in the longer term, we have to cross our fingers on that, but in the short term the hurt is all Covid, Brexit is just a side show now.

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6 minutes ago, Gav said:

Depends who you ask, Philipl's been in apocalyptic mode for years :P

But on a more serious note, surely you see the irony that all the doom bluff and bluster thats lead the agenda for the past few years on both sides has been trumped by Covid19.

Brexit was never expected to impact on the country the way Covid19 has, Brexit from here on in could be a cake walk really as the fall out from Covid is far more serious, much more far reaching than Brexit will ever be.

Brexit will potentially reap rewards in the longer term, we have to cross our fingers on that, but in the short term the hurt is all Covid, Brexit is just a side show now.

Dunno, it feels kind of like breaking your leg and as you scream in agony someone comes along and chops both your arms off and says "your broken leg isnt that bad anymore is it" 

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I'm not for one minute suggesting I'm not very fortunate in being able to have the lifestyle I have. I'm not rich but nor am I anywhere near poor. But then I and my husband have worked all our lives to get where we are. I'm not asking for sympathy myself, just expressing frustration that what, for most of my life has been frictionless, will suddenly overnight become unnecessarily, in my opinion, more difficult for most people, all in the name of reclaiming sovereignty we never actually lost. Brexit has been misold  to the British people as having your cake and eating it when in fact we already had that. 

11 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

What terrible problems to have. It almost brought a tear to the eye. 

 

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Just now, gumboots said:

I'm not for one minute suggesting I'm not very fortunate in being able to have the lifestyle I have. I'm not rich but nor am I anywhere near poor. But then I and my husband have worked all our lives to get where we are. I'm not asking for sympathy myself, just expressing frustration that what, for most of my life has been frictionless, will suddenly overnight become unnecessarily, in my opinion, more difficult for most people, all in the name of reclaiming sovereignty we never actually lost. Brexit has been misold  to the British people as having your cake and eating it when in fact we already had that. 

 

I totally get where you're coming from. It's obviously not the worst thing in the world and to many is probably a first world problem but it is so frustrating that were putting barriers up with no real benefit in return. 

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2 minutes ago, RoverDom said:

I totally get where you're coming from. It's obviously not the worst thing in the world and to many is probably a first world problem but it is so frustrating that were putting barriers up with no real benefit in return. 

But you are getting a benefit. We will be in complete control of our own borders and that to me is far more important than the minor inconvenience of having to fill in a few forms. 

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13 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

But you are getting a benefit. We will be in complete control of our own borders and that to me is far more important than the minor inconvenience of having to fill in a few forms. 

That doesnt benefit me personally though and at present i beleive the country is at a net benefit from current immigration system. 

Besides when we have to offer up a ton of visas as leverage in trade negotiations we'll only really have the illusion of controlling our borders. 

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Do you really think so? How will we settle trade deals with poorer countries? Issue more visas probably. Will we be able to stop desperate migrants from Middle Ezstern countries coming over? I doubt it and French authorities wont bother to stop them as they at least try to do at the moment. Our borders were always our borders and we could have been far more selective about who came in before. It suited our economy to let in those we did. The myth that British workers will step up to do jobs previously filled by Rumanians etc is most likely just a myth. If you are highly skilled, why would you come here? So well need to train people for the skilled jobs. That takes time and will need huge investment. In the meantime the care sector is already preparing for a massive shortfall in workers and they are saying that British people will only do those jobs on hugely increased wages. I dont think even if they doubled the wages they'll fill the jobs as they're not seen as desirable careers for many people. It's going to be a mess. Huge unemployment following covid 19 hit to the economy but people not trained for the jobs that will be available. Investment needed to retrain people but immediate shortfall. Longer term gain may occur but I cant see it in my lifetime. 

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3 minutes ago, gumboots said:

Our borders were always our borders 

That is simply incorrect. Freedom of Movement made it impossible for us to have complete control over our own borders.

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Just now, Ewood Ace said:

That is simply incorrect. Freedom of Movement made it impossible for us to have complete control over our own borders.

Only theoretically. As an island nation, we actually did always have control. Every single port via every mode of transport includes (and always did during our EU membership) passport checks.

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9 minutes ago, Mike E said:

Only theoretically. As an island nation, we actually did always have control. Every single port via every mode of transport includes (and always did during our EU membership) passport checks.

We didn't. How can you have control of your borders when you cannot have complete control over who is coming in? Freedom of Movement also creates a very discriminatory immigration system.

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4 hours ago, Ewood Ace said:

 

We are able now to protect our own industries such as one that has been mentioned on here recently the fishing industry. It was absolutely preposterous that just one Dutch fishing ship was entitled to catch 23% of our entire quota.

Workers and industry will undoubtedly benefit from Brexit if we want something to be built in Britain then it will be built in Britain, if we don't want a repeat of Kraft and Cadbury's then we can stop it and we are no longer restricted by the EU state aid rules.

We can now make our own treaties and trade deals rather than being stuck in European ones, for example as soon as Trump is out of the White House TTIP or something very similar but rebranded will be back on the table and that would have been extremely bad for Britain.

Then of course there is the biggest thing all encompassing thing of all and that is Sovereignty.

 

Only if you find queueing a bit longer difficult, I personally don't. Personally I don't think it is any easier to travel to Spain now than it was before we joined the common market and I see no reason why it will be after December 31st. It is just Remainer scaremongering. We travelled to Europe before we joined the Common Market and to this day people do still travel outside of the European Union (perish the thought) and it all runs perfectly smoothly. 

There's so many things wrong here it 's difficult to know where to start.

1. !f we want something to be built in Britain then it will be built in Britain. What's this supposed to mean? How does being a member of the EU stop us manufacturing anything we want? Answer, it doesn't

2.  if we don't want a repeat of Kraft and Cadbury's then we can stop it and we are no longer restricted by the EU state aid rules. The Kraft takeover of Cadbury was a commercial deal between 2 companies and nothing to do with the EU. The government could have intervened but chose not to. 

3. We can now make our own treaties and trade deals rather than being stuck in European ones. We're a market of 60m people compared to the EU's 450m. How are any future deals going to be better than the current arrangements and what leverage do we have? Answer, they won't and none.

5. Then of course there is the biggest thing all encompassing thing of all and that is Sovereignty. The old take back control saw. Name anything that the EU has prevented us doing that really matters. Answer, it hasn't and it can't.

6. Personally I don't think it is any easier to travel to Spain now than it was before we joined the common market and I see no reason why it will be after December 31st. No one who travelled to Europe pre-1973 would post this and in view of the widely reported stories about border control this week this sentence has to be ironic or a piss-take. 

 

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

We didn't. How can you have control of your borders when you cannot have complete control over who is coming in? Freedom of Movement also creates a very discriminatory immigration system.

Citizens of EU Member States are entitled to look for a job in another EU country, work there without needing a work permit, reside there for work, stay there after employment has finished, and enjoy equal treatment with nationals in access to employment, working conditions and all other social and tax advantages.

Free movement rights differ somewhat for the self-employed, students, and 'economically non-active' people (holidaying, retired, or otherwise not working); although in practice the UK made no attempt to enforce any such restrictions.

A 'discriminatory' system was our policy fault, and not the fault of the EU or the concept of Freedom of Movement. We had complete control and CHOSE not to use it. That's why Blair got such flak for 'open-door immigration', because it was our Government's choice.

Edited by Mike E

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Mike E said:

Citizens of EU Member States are entitled to look for a job in another EU country, work there without needing a work permit, reside there for work, stay there after employment has finished, and enjoy equal treatment with nationals in access to employment, working conditions and all other social and tax advantages.

Free movement rights differ somewhat for the self-employed, students, and 'economically non-active' people (holidaying, retired, or otherwise not working); although in practice the UK made no attempt to enforce any such restrictions.

A 'discriminatory' system was our policy fault, and not the fault of the EU or the concept of Freedom of Movement. We had complete control and CHOSE not to use it. That's why Blair got such flak for 'open-door immigration', because it was our Government's choice.

You can not have complete control over your borders whilst you are in the EU, the two are not compatible for the reasons that you eloquently state in your first paragraph. And it is that, that is discriminatory. 

Edited by Ewood Ace

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Japan is taking hard-headed approach to UK trade talks

Tokyo looks to secure extra tariff cuts from Britain, above and beyond those in its deal with EU

https://www.ft.com/content/5491d1f4-99b0-48ac-85d4-7a2f651d5d54

Read and learn, for all those who think we'd get a trade deal from any country better than we already have through the EU. 

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8 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

You can not have complete control over your borders whilst you are in the EU, the two are not compatible for the reasons that you eloquently state in your first paragraph. And it is that, that is discriminatory. 

...hoist by mine own petard 😂 I enjoyed that debate though :) shame more debates aren't civilised like that!

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#BoycottWetherspoons

#DrinkLocal

Need some help to prevent drinking in Wetherspoons for £1.29 for crap beer? Try this:

The price reduction from £3-4 coincides with a £48m loan underwritten by the taxpayer, allowing them to undercut competitors.

Using state aid for competitive advantage is against state aid rules. Or it was, under EU law which we're no longer subject to.

'Cheaper beer' sounds good, but it's pretty much conditional on other businesses being forced to charge more, possibly losing business, possibly needing to close. I'd rather not have Wetherspoons be the only pub I can go into, especially as proper independent ale has made leaps forward in the last decade or so.

Secondly, Wetherspoons claim it's due to the VAT reduction. But if VAT applied to alcohol (which it doesn't anyway, so they're lying), then £1.29 + 20% = £1.47 as opposed to £3-4.

The lie also cunningly makes other bars look like they aren't passing on the saving, even though they haven't been able to save a bean because they weren't given £48m from taxes.

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17 minutes ago, Mike E said:

#BoycottWetherspoons

#DrinkLocal

Need some help to prevent drinking in Wetherspoons for £1.29 for crap beer? Try this:

The price reduction from £3-4 coincides with a £48m loan underwritten by the taxpayer, allowing them to undercut competitors.

Using state aid for competitive advantage is against state aid rules. Or it was, under EU law which we're no longer subject to.

'Cheaper beer' sounds good, but it's pretty much conditional on other businesses being forced to charge more, possibly losing business, possibly needing to close. I'd rather not have Wetherspoons be the only pub I can go into, especially as proper independent ale has made leaps forward in the last decade or so.

Secondly, Wetherspoons claim it's due to the VAT reduction. But if VAT applied to alcohol (which it doesn't anyway, so they're lying), then £1.29 + 20% = £1.47 as opposed to £3-4.

The lie also cunningly makes other bars look like they aren't passing on the saving, even though they haven't been able to save a bean because they weren't given £48m from taxes.

Its already a shame that Wetherspoons is the better option for ale in some towns. Would always go to an old man pub over spoons but sadly they're dying out 

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How the new immigration regulations will work for Health and Social care workers? Fast tracking them through the system 

 

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Saw that yesterday and read the problems with it for care workers. Cant remember what they were but there were clear problems set out for care workers. Health workers were different

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Chaddy - I assume you just post this rubbish without thinking about it? The salary cap is still there so it's a complete waste of time for care workers as nearly all of them are paid less than the cap, many a lot less.

There are only two ways we can get out of this. Either allow care workers to come in by giving visas despite low salaries, or increase salaries ion the sector so that enough Uk workers will be willing to do the jobs. If the latter who is going to pay those costs?

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Posted (edited)

I see we are managing to piss the Chinese off over 5G, that market seems to be slipping away. We've obviously pissed off the EU. The Yanks will want us to bend over in the future. I suppose we can always sell more arms to our good friends in Saudia Arabia though.

I saw that bumbling, incoherent Patrick Minford trying to defend Brexit on " Newsnight " earlier. If he's all you've got to cheerlead Brexit these days the game really is up.

Edited by Tyrone Shoelaces

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