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Just now, Ewood Ace said:

Happy about what?

Hong Kong is undoubtedly Chinese, it was taken by force under one of the infamous "Unequal Treaties" imposed by the West when China was weak.

There's a lesson from history, things change. Best to treat people fairly because you never know what the relativities will be in the future.

Nevertheless this is a totalitarian China intent on flexing its muscles and so we are living in dangerous times. 

It would be nice if the Chinese allowed a referendum on independence for Hong Kong but they never will.

We're not in a hurry to give Scotland one either are we?

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Trump yesterday on the UK's Huawei decision.

“We’re going to do a lot more business because . . . we just lost one competitor.” - Donald Trump.

In case anyone is in any doubt about the US's motivations. 

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11 minutes ago, Gav said:

I don't think anyone's naive enough to think US didn't have some part to play in this, they warned the UK back in 2019 not to go down this route. 

But China themselves are actively trying to derail the search for Covid19 vaccines, stealing and hacking laboratories around the globe, they're a nasty piece of work and we'd be better served keeping well away.

Yes, both points are true. Clearly time to have a new and different relationship with China and USA but stand little chance of either outside the EU.

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27 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

People of Hong Kong seem to see themselves as separate from China. They don't want to be ruled in the way China is proposing - hence the million people attending a protest about it. You should get used to fighting back against all oppressive regimes, not just the ones you dislike.

The last polling I saw from Reuters (no friend of China) at the beginning of the year showed that only 17% of Hong Kong's people wanted independence from China with and just 20% said that China has abused the “one country, two systems” model to benefit Beijing.

38 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

China have been embarking on regional expansion since the early 2000s. 

Completely untrue. Provide some examples.

38 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

We've been through this together before, but what strikes me as very hypocritical of you is that when posters on here expressed their concerns about Russian military exercises you dismissed it with no second thought (even cut it from your quoted posts IIRC!!) but now it suits your version of events we are to discuss said military exercises. Which is it? 

I was getting worried that you hadn't mentioned Russia for a while.

40 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

China has more or less implemented a regime change in Hong Kong, as it has entirely trampled on agreements made only decades ago, but you are of the belief we should accept this. 

Regime change in their own country. 🤔

43 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Quite how reports of womens hair being sold, people being forcibly euthanised, detention camps (re-education centres) or the like are to be dismissed as much more complex is beyond me. In the same way China goes after other religions - see reports of organ harvesting - they are going after this minority because they may believe in something superior to the Chinese state, and that is forbidden in that authoritarian regime.

And here's the problem you read stories in the western MSM and take them as gospel whereas if you scratch beneath the surface you will find they are either completely false or that it is much more complex than it is made out to be.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ewood Ace said:

Hong Kong belongs to China, its people are Chinese and its affairs are nothing to do with anyone but China. The days where the British colonizers are able to dictate what happens in Hong Kong are thankfully long gone.

It was part of the agreement struck in the 1980s/1990s when Thatcher negotiated to hand back the whole city when the lease was up. The original 99 year lease was only for the New Territories, and not the whole area by the way. Oh, and none of the ethnically Chinese people saw themselves as fully Chinese when grew up there from 1989-94. They saw themselves as a bit different, and mainland Chinese (who were often trying to hop over the border for a better life like those hanging around Calais) as a bit backward and simple.

You blabber on about how it's great the British are no longer colonisers and all that yet you make 1,000,000 excuses for China who have colonised Tibet and Russia who have interfered with Ukraine and Georgia this century. I guess you can only do it when you also oppress your own people. I guess you can only break agreements and treaties, and stifle civil rights if you're not one of those evil western countries with their mainstream media not controlled by the leader.

Edited by Norbert Rassragr

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Just now, Norbert Rassragr said:

You blabber on about how it's great the British are no longer colonisers and all that yet you make 1,000,000 excuses for China who have colonised Tibet and Russia who have interfered with Ukraine and Georgia this century. I guess you can only do it when you also oppress your own people. 

Tibet like Hong Kong isn’t a country. It is as I'm sure you are aware a province of China that is already autonomous. Tibet has been part of China for 800 years and has never been an independent nation.

I'm not sure what relevance Russia have to Hong Kong but this is the kind of hysteria the MSM have whipped up about countries like China and Russia who dare to challenge the western hegemony, if there is a problem in the world blame just them. As for Russia, interfering in the Ukraine I afraid you've got the wrong country there, the parties that were interfering in the Ukraine were the US and the European Union.

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1 hour ago, 47er said:

It patently is true Dreams, it just doesn't suit your narrative. No trade deal unless we got rid of Huawai from UK Why? America First----the Yanks intend to fill the gap.

The one thing Trump has been consistent about from the start.

But it's not. Pretty much every European security agency has expressed concern over allowing Huawei into their future networks. This isn't an American issue, it's a global one.

Yes Trump might be trying to claim a victory but didn't Obama try and claim a victory in Afghan? What American leaders say and what is reality is often a very different thing.

There is currently no American company providing 5G networking if I'm right, leaving our alternatives with South Korea's Samsung, Swedens Erikson and Finlands Nokia. There's no gap to fill for the USA in this 'deal'.

As for the trade deal if indeed it has come to pass that we are on better terms with the yanks because of this then good - that shouldn't stop our resistance to cheap foods and the like though. Simply getting rid of one bad egg (china) and replacing it with another (yank chickens) isn't wise.

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Posted (edited)

https://freetibet.org/about/history

Says otherwise about Tibet "never being an independent nation". Load of shite. A key quote from here: "China has continued to respond to Tibetan protest and expressions of national pride with lethal violence and punitive sentences."

Of course, all those monks that are literally setting themselves on fire in protest are doing so for no genuine reason other than to try and 'disrupt the national unity of China'.

Lethal violence in stopping any protests against the Chinese state is a common trend.. one we are seeing in Hong Kong. There are of course those that defend the Chinese state and try to de-legitimise the rights of these people by citing historical territorial claims - I wonder if them same people would idly sit by if Britain was to try and reimpose some of its past "territorial claims". Of course not.

It's widely reported about Russia's involvement in Ukraine through proxy forces - just like the ethnic cleansing of South Ossettians is known. It the great restraint - or lack of care - of other nations that countries like Russia and China are allowed to continue their atrocities against people both domestically and enforcing their will on other independent nations.

I'd love to see how the treatment of ethnic minorities in Russia/China is "much more complex" than meets the eye. It seems like you will only accept criticism from the "MSM" (such a woke bloke) if it is directed at the sides you want it to be directed at. I'd suggest moving to China or Russia if you believe them two states to be fairer, more just and far more likeable than the West but then again I guess you also enjoy the freedoms that the west gives you. Like most who lean towards Communist politics they never seem to be keen to move to a state where Communism is practised. I wonder why?

 

Edited by Dreams of 1995

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

 I'd love to see how the treatment of ethnic minorities in Russia/China is "much more complex" than meets the eye. It seems like you will only accept criticism from the "MSM" (such a woke bloke) if it is directed at the sides you want it to be directed at. I'd suggest moving to China or Russia if you believe them two states to be fairer, more just and far more likeable than the West but then again I guess you also enjoy the freedoms that the west gives you. Like most who lean towards Communist politics they never seem to be keen to move to a state where Communism is practised. I wonder why?

 

And there it is the why don't you move and live their argument, always the last desperate argument when all else has failed. Also I'm not sure if you are aware but Russia hasn't been a communist country for the last 30 years. Although I'm not surprised that you seem to think that it still is as you do seems to be stuck in a cold war mindset.

Edited by Ewood Ace

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Just now, Ewood Ace said:

And there it is the why don't you move and live their argument, always the last desperate argument when all else has failed. Also I'm not sure if you are aware but Russia hasn't been a communist country for the last 30 years.

We have barely argued to call anything a fail. Whatever anyone posts here you'll just reply with "it's more complex" or "that's what the western MSM would have you believe". It's not a discussion in the slightest with you Ewood, just sheer denial. You keep asking for evidence about it but thus far have provided absolutely nothing yourself any of us can consider taking seriously. You have put yourself on this hill and are willing to die on it. Every time a website or piece of evidence or argument is given to you you conveniently miss that out of the quote, focusing instead on a point where you think you have a chance. 

It is a very serious question though. You clearly despise most things this UK government does, and hold a disdain for all things European, yet the option to move to a country which has a political mindset similar to yours is available to you but one which no Communist I have ever met ever seems to want to do. Instead they enjoy the freedom of opposition the west provides them. I lived with a bloke at Uni that had a communist flag on his bedroom, loved the idea of it, attended all the rallies known to man but the option between teaching English in China or South Korea came and he chose SK. Why? It's a much more comfortable life. It's pure hypocrisy.

In the world currently there's Cuba, China, Laos, Vietnam (although that's on its way out) and North Korea all practising communism, you could choose any, but I highly doubt that you would. The way of life the west gives us is far too comfortable to trade it all in. Plus, in 3 of them countries if your child was born gay or wanted to follow a religion separate to the state he might find himself in a forced "re-education" camp. Of course, though, the situation is far more complex than that.........

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

It is a very serious question though. You clearly despise most things this UK government does, and hold a disdain for all things European, yet the option to move to a country which has a political mindset similar to yours is available to you but one which no Communist I have ever met ever seems to want to do. Instead they enjoy the freedom of opposition the west provides them. I lived with a bloke at Uni that had a communist flag on his bedroom, loved the idea of it, attended all the rallies known to man but the option between teaching English in China or South Korea came and he chose SK. Why? It's a much more comfortable life. It's pure hypocrisy.

Could you provide examples to back up your quote that 'I hold a disdain for all things European'. Only a few minutes ago you were telling me to move to Russia and now you are telling me 'I hold a disdain for all things European'. The last time I looked Russia made up nearly 40% of Europe's land area. 

Edited by Ewood Ace

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Posted (edited)

 

3 hours ago, Gav said:

I don't think anyone's naive enough to think US didn't have some part to play in this, they warned the UK back in 2019 not to go down this route. 

But China themselves are actively trying to derail the search for Covid19 vaccines, stealing and hacking laboratories around the globe, they're a nasty piece of work and we'd be better served keeping well away.

Yes China have and continue to try to derail the UK search for Covid19 vaccines and treatments. 

We need to be very careful about any trade deal with China and what we agree to. 

 

 

Edited by chaddyrovers

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33 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

Could you provide examples to back up your quote that 'I hold a disdain for all things European'. Only a few minutes ago you were telling me to move to Russia and now you are telling me 'I hold a disdain for all things European'. The last time I looked Russia made up nearly 40% of Europe's land area. 

So to put a line under all of this, despite your repeated calls for evidence to back up what people have said about the two states, you won't do the same?

Once again, ignoring the bulk of the argument for a small part you think you have a point for.

I'm only going off the impression you give off on here, with all the woke attitude about not believing the western MSM, "western hegemony", western this, western that. You are probably the most anti-EU on here too, even giving Sparks Rovers a run for his money. It just seems like you are one of the most vocal critics of western governments for their perceived lack of humanity but on the other you defend to the hilt two states that are rife with all the human rights issues mentioned. Makes no sense but I guess it is far too complex for us mere mortals to understand.

As said, if the states are nowhere near as bad as you make out, and you've identified yourself with Communist politics, why wouldn't you move to a state that practices the type of politics you want? Because it won't happen here. Of course, that would take Russia off the list, an error on my part, but you've still got sunny North Korea to keep you interested if you really want that method of rule. 

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2 hours ago, Ewood Ace said:

 As for Russia, interfering in the Ukraine I afraid you've got the wrong country there, the parties that were interfering in the Ukraine were the US and the European Union.

So it's US and EU troops illegally occupying Crimea then? US and EU missiles shooting down passenger planes?

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32 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

So to put a line under all of this, despite your repeated calls for evidence to back up what people have said about the two states, you won't do the same?

What exactly do you want evidence of?

33 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Once again, ignoring the bulk of the argument for a small part you think you have a point for.

I read your argument but its pointless responding to it as you have your view and I have my own differing view and I know that I am not going to dissuade you from that view so it is a waste of time trying to. 

35 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

I'm only going off the impression you give off on here, with all the woke attitude about not believing the western MSM, "western hegemony", western this, western that. You are probably the most anti-EU on here too, even giving Sparks Rovers a run for his money. It just seems like you are one of the most vocal critics of western governments for their perceived lack of humanity but on the other you defend to the hilt two states that are rife with all the human rights issues mentioned. Makes no sense but I guess it is far too complex for us mere mortals to understand.

So disliking the EU now equates to holding 'a disdain for all things European'. You say I defend Russia to the hilt again this is untrue as the other day on here I listed just a few of the issues that I have with the Country. 

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Just now, Dreyski said:

So it's US and EU troops illegally occupying Crimea then? US and EU missiles shooting down passenger planes?

Is that the same Crimea where they had a referendum and an overwhelming majority on a huge turnout voted to join Russia? And I can't say that I blame them after the far right coup that the US and EU helped to facilitate in the Ukraine.

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Posted (edited)

A referendum held after the invasion where many ethnic Tartars were barred from voting.

Also broke the 1994 Budapest memorandum by invading. Not to mention training and supplying the 'seperatists' in the Eastern Ukraine.

Edited by Dreyski

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Norbert Rassragr said:

It was part of the agreement struck in the 1980s/1990s when Thatcher negotiated to hand back the whole city when the lease was up. The original 99 year lease was only for the New Territories, and not the whole area by the way. Oh, and none of the ethnically Chinese people saw themselves as fully Chinese when grew up there from 1989-94. They saw themselves as a bit different, and mainland Chinese (who were often trying to hop over the border for a better life like those hanging around Calais) as a bit backward and simple.

You blabber on about how it's great the British are no longer colonisers and all that yet you make 1,000,000 excuses for China who have colonised Tibet and Russia who have interfered with Ukraine and Georgia this century. I guess you can only do it when you also oppress your own people. I guess you can only break agreements and treaties, and stifle civil rights if you're not one of those evil western countries with their mainstream media not controlled by the leader.

Yet we're not bothered in the slightest about the behaviour of Israel in the Middle East. As long as we can sell them arms we can look the other way I suppose.

Let's have an embargo on Israeli goods ? Hang on a minute, maybe that's anti-Semitic ?

Edited by Tyrone Shoelaces

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52 minutes ago, Dreyski said:

A referendum held after the invasion where many ethnic tartars were barred from voting.

Also broke the 1994 Budapest memorandum by invading. Not to mention training and supplying the 'seperatists' in the Eastern Ukraine.

Or the ethnic cleansing in Georgian South Ossetia a decade or so ago. 

There’s also the supporting of chemical warfare Assad but Ewood Ace’s “it’s more complex” argument might actually have some standing on that one. 

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32 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

There’s also the supporting of chemical warfare Assad but Ewood Ace’s “it’s more complex” argument might actually have some standing on that one. 

I don't think it's complex at all. I think that they were false flag attacks. 

You keep quoting me as saying everything is more complex, the only thing that I have said was more complex than has been made out to be is the Chinese's relationship with its Muslim population.

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10 hours ago, Norbert Rassragr said:

It was part of the agreement struck in the 1980s/1990s when Thatcher negotiated to hand back the whole city when the lease was up. The original 99 year lease was only for the New Territories, and not the whole area by the way. Oh, and none of the ethnically Chinese people saw themselves as fully Chinese when grew up there from 1989-94. They saw themselves as a bit different, and mainland Chinese (who were often trying to hop over the border for a better life like those hanging around Calais) as a bit backward and simple.

You blabber on about how it's great the British are no longer colonisers and all that yet you make 1,000,000 excuses for China who have colonised Tibet and Russia who have interfered with Ukraine and Georgia this century. I guess you can only do it when you also oppress your own people. I guess you can only break agreements and treaties, and stifle civil rights if you're not one of those evil western countries with their mainstream media not controlled by the leader.

You're correct about the NewTerritories! Not many people know that! Hong Kong was ceded to GB in perpetuity.

 However that was by force and increasingly untenable as time went on.

Without the New Territories, Hong Kong had inadequate water supplies so, in reality, the two areas went together.

Over time we've simply said that we had a 99 year lease on Hong Kong and that's become ab accepted fact.

Generations have grown up in Hong Kong under a more liberal form of government and now believe its their right.

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10 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

 

That'd just be showboating. Completely pointless exercise when the government have a majority of 80, everyone of whom have been made to swear allegiance on the altar of Brexit. I'll criticise Starmer if and when the time comes but in this case I think he's wise giving futile gestures such as this one a swerve.

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I guess this broken promise is why businesses have started building Brexit stockpiles again and leave voting areas are suffering disproportionately.

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