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[Archived] Bayes, Seneca and Nixon interview


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3 hours ago, tomphil said:

They'd have to find a way of servicing it whilst running what was left of the club in the correct manner or go out and find a billionaire buyer. Stranger things have happened but if some rich business men did take over then upon giving up the club you'd think Venkys would have written it off in doing so.

They haven't a hope in hell of getting even a fraction of it back their stark choice now is kep increasing it or bust the club there is zero alternative.

They might use it as a payment to the Indian tax man. We would then be owned by the India version of HMRC. It beats being owned by the Thai prime minister be default, I think.

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Seen allot of posts following the points to consider I made upon Ian’s latest interview. I wish to make it exceptionally clear that I’m not ruling his efforts out or going in any way to discredit the fella. It’s simply my opinion and having been privy to how takeovers are done on a major scale in the past then it’s based on observations on what I’ve witnessed, end of the day it’s my opinion.

Loving the club is sadly not enough, we all love the club and share the same passions and dare I say it if afforded the opportunity to do so would speak just as candidly well on radio about the situation with the club and the owners as Ian has done.

If it’s true about the premier lounge attendance then he will know how easy it is to speak to Suhail, I myself and a couple of others on this board went corporate at the Villa game and you are within touching distance of the man himself. Given if Ian is in there regularly granted I didn’t see him at Villa then is that not the sort of “Golden” place to broach Suhail; the owners representative about the club, potentially seek an invite to Pune or exchange details? Like I’ve said there are appointed VLL legal advisors in the UK in which you’d have to go through at some stage of the transaction of purchase so why not go to him (David Julian Hull) straight away and as in any case of acquiring a business "Express a formal interest"?

I can assure you that Jerome arranged the meeting in Pune with Madame Desai and Ian at the time, so how do you go from a fan to that exactly? As I initiated in one of my opening posts he may have known Jerome from prior business arrangements given they’ve both experienced the banking and insurance sectors respectively. Jerome isn’t stupid and I can’t imagine he’d get duped like that from Ian or allow himself to get used in that way.

The debt issue isn’t as cut and dry as people think, it’s a valuable commodity. I say this because sat on the balance sheet of Rovers is the accrued tax losses of £36 million GBP. If you were investing in something i.e a football club usually you’d expect to see a return or gain something favourable like branding maybe. The loss for anyone investing or owning the club with a pre-existing or new UK business in the future is now an asset and would allow you to start setting of taxed profits against this sum. If your Ian Battersby and have no real money and are relying heavily on HNI’s (High Net worth Individuals) then how do you pacify predicted 10,000,000 losses for the foreseeable, sooner or later these investors are going to stop throwing money about or letting you play with it unless something is coming back in return to them. So there is the potential of £1.00 sale in return for the debt and accrued tax losses.

Then you have the subject of investors anyways all of whom will be required to go through the ironic “Ownership” test so the subject of investment and where it’s coming from of course would be imperative. The initial points I raised to be fair haven’t been attacked but perhaps it’s my posting style? I think as much as we want Venkys out then you have to consider about what comes next, suitability, planning structure etc. Are Rovers going to be in any better position than they are now? Trade for a skint future ran right or a party writing off losses annually but running it awfully.

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• Where is the upfront capital coming from? Are these investors expecting a return, if so then when? Who are they and what is there agenda on purchasing a debt ridden football club? What happens if the investors don’t cough up what initially promised, the Ians and Seneca have no money so this constitutes a pretty big gamble. Is the investment staying in the team or when time allows will this be taken out and capital only used to aid cashflow in the medium term given the short term we know the answer.

• What happens when one of the big ones pulls out through lack of returns given you don’t tend to make money in football? What is the capital secured by, the clubs assets?

• If purchased what is the long term goal, promotion to the championship and sell? Go for the jugular to the Premier League and sell?

• They’ve been to Pune and put a 20+20+20 offer of investment forward last summer, since then nothing bar four radio interviews. As admitted nobody from Venky’s is going to fall at Ian B’s door so what is being done to facilitate the breakthrough? I’ve raised the subject of going through David Hull @ Squire Sanders LLP whom are Venky’s and Suhail’s legal contact here, if you’re serious why wouldn’t you express interest in this way? Odd.

• It’s ok to talk about have 30, 90 day plans and three months etc. but what actually are these, no detail, zilch etc. offered. Given they don’t appear to have at least forecasted the finances and position of things, are they even that serious? Due diligence is what three months? In the situation the club finds itself in and the potential to worsen significantly over the next period then I’d have as much base work done as I could if I was looking at stepping in and saving a club to have either the best impact from day one, reservations answered, shorten the due diligence period. He’s had a year since his offer of investment so I think it’s a fair point to make.

• Points such as if the club had no money but was ran ok fans would accept this, personally I’m not so sure they would and it’s not a good statement to make if that’s the case.

• The point about expensive short term loans, Ian conceded this was normal practise in day to day businesses, sorry Ian it isn’t it might be if you’re in a distressed state like Blackburn without 1st/2nd tier lending facilities but in everyday life it’s far from that.

Seneca themselves have a net turnover of just 3.5 Million, the companies they invest in are penny share companies struggling to get off the ground which may just strike gold one day and as such trade on the AIM, any one with share experience will know the background of the AIM being very much a hit and miss street which suffers from a lack of regulation at times.

 

 

Additionally to the quoted topics if they rely on investment partners whom won’t probably be named and as individuals/directors themselves then how will they go about banking facilities given the existing ones are in India so likely to be withdrawn on completion of sale and the Ians have not much money themselves or Seneca, who is going to lend to them for day to day and transit operations?

It’s nice to go and talk about something but the points I raise and listening to him makes me think it’s not been thought through in great detail to be honest. Like I say it’s my opinion and it would be exceptionally fantastic to be wrong!

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I would assume men that have made millions in business would have thought this through before lumping together a suggested 60million pound figure. Whilst I won't pretend to know all the answers I go by the motto "rather the devil you know than the devil you don't" and, amongst all this nonsense, one certainty is that the two Ian's will be able to be held accountable far easier than the crooks in charge. Local lads that have the club at heart must surely be better than the asset strippers from the most corrupt city in one of the most corrupt countries in the world.

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Just now, Dreams of 1995 said:

I would assume men that have made millions in business would have thought this through before lumping together a suggested 60million pound figure. Whilst I won't pretend to know all the answers I go by the motto "rather the devil you know than the devil you don't" and, amongst all this nonsense, one certainty is that the two Ian's will be able to be held accountable far easier than the crooks in charge. Local lads that have the club at heart must surely be better than the asset strippers from the most corrupt city in one of the most corrupt countries in the world.

Bar players sold which as you can see from the accounts has funded operational costs what have they asset stripped exactly? Club still appears to own ground, training and academy in its name.

how do you think this investment will come? Via a promise? No more than likely assets used as collateral and security's to obtain investment from partners in return granting partners with a fixed charge more than likely.

No one lends people money for nothing especially on something as insecure as this.

made millions? His company loans to others biggest appears 330 k. Seneca itself turns over 3.5 million with profits of just 435k.

to put that in perspective my last project portfolio which I managed compromised of 24 million pounds of yearly work and gross profits of around 3.5 million. 330k was probably just 1 interim monthly payment I made to a specific party. 

Hardly constitutes owning a club!

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Just now, Dunnfc said:

If your Ian Battersby and have no real money and are relying heavily on HNI’s (High Net worth Individuals) then how do you pacify predicted 10,000,000 losses for the foreseeable, sooner or later these investors are going to stop throwing money about or letting you play with it unless something is coming back in return to them.

That will be in the business plan I'd imagine. Unless they are satisfied with the plan they won't invest. As you've been privy to major takeovers you'll know they all don't just rock up on the day with a few notes on a fag packet.

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4 minutes ago, Dunnfc said:

I can assure you that Jerome arranged the meeting in Pune with Madame Desai and Ian at the time, so how do you go from a fan to that exactly?

You seem to happy to keep repeating this for some reason. If you have an accusation to make, make it.

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Just now, Dunnfc said:

Bar players sold which as you can see from the accounts has funded operational costs what have they asset stripped exactly? Club still appears to own ground, training and academy in its name.

how do you think this investment will come? Via a promise? No more than likely used as collateral and security's to obtain investment from partners in return granting partners with a fixed charge more than likely.

 

 

Players are assets. Coaching staff are assets. Since they have come there has been a considerable loss of assets - our value has decreased enormously. They have sold off assets and not replaced them hence the term asset stripping.

Clubs operate on losses throughout this country but owners find ways to plug them losses.

Seems odd your apprehension to this. I have no doubt the two Ian's could easily sustain a club our size in League 1 - especially considering fans would return and, despite us not having 20K+ crowds, we'd still far exceed the crowds of other clubs. Surely a club in this league owned by them is better than a club in this league owned by Venkys.

Any fan within his right mind would easily conclude who they would rather have in charge. Most certainly the two Ian's would have the club at heart and should they face a similar position to Venkys they'd almost definitely look for a responsible sale as opposed to silently holding onto a loss making enterprise. Do you have an axe to grind with Seneca/Ian/Ian?

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Just now, Dunnfc said:

made millions? His company loans to others biggest appears 330 k. Seneca itself turns over 3.5 million with profits of just 435k.

to put that in perspective my last project portfolio which I managed compromised of 24 million pounds of yearly work and gross profits of around 3.5 million. 330k was probably just 1 interim monthly payment I made to a specific party. 

There's a lot of self-aggrandisement going on here, and elsewhere, for some reason. You keep telling the board you're a professional (and?),  you've offered to work for the club for free in a senior position, that Seneca are worth very little and you've handled more money in your sleep. When I read stuff like this I normally think 'agenda' and being a 'professional' who has £48 in the bank I'm normally right.

You even posted a comment in the Trust thread bigging up BRAG as if it was some competition.

Cards on the table Dunn FC, what's your agenda?

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Just now, Dreams of 1995 said:

 

Players are assets. Coaching staff are assets. Since they have come there has been a considerable loss of assets - our value has decreased enormously. They have sold off assets and not replaced them hence the term asset stripping.

Clubs operate on losses throughout this country but owners find ways to plug them losses.

Seems odd your apprehension to this. I have no doubt the two Ian's could easily sustain a club our size in League 1 - especially considering fans would return and despite us not having 20K+ crowds we'd still far exceed the crowds of other clubs. Surely a club in this league owned by them is better than a club in this league owned by Venky's.

Any fan within his right mind would easily conclude who they would rather have in charge. Most certainly the two Ian's would have the club at heart and should they face a similar position to Venky's they'd almost definitely look for a responsible sale as opposed to silently holding onto a loss making enterprise. Do you have an axe to grind with Seneca/Ian/Ian?

They've sold players to keep the club afloat and minimise what they have to keep putting in which 12 months ago was substantial and now thanks to Cheston will be again, that's not stripping. Siphoning proceeds of transfers and switching the buildings would be but they've not done that. Plugging minimising losses is surely exactly what they've been doing by selling players as opposed to stripping.

i think without Venkys we'd have a net home crowd of around 15 k at championship level.

Believe it or not this season Rivers were actually safe. No charges on anything, we owned property as a club outright. No one wants to see Venkys still here but believe me it has the potential to be allot worse if we are not careful.

Dont know Ian's from Mars tbh but I'm pretty astute and I don't think walking away from that interview I learnt anything, just came away with more worry tbh. I picked up on a few things which I've mentioned which just simply didn't sit right with me.

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Dunnfc;

Casting doubts on Ian B using the Premier Lounge?

Casting doubts on his attendance at the Villa game just because you didn't see him?

Commenting on what you perceive to be IB's personal wealth?

Individually maybe small matters but why are you deliberately personalising your arguments by raising such doubts? They appear agenda driven.

Which begs the question again - why do you promote Jonathan Jackson as first choice Rovers CEO? I asked before but have seen no reply.

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If Venky's are to walk away entirely, the one thing that is certain is that they'll have to write off the debt, or at least the bulk of it. No one, individual or consortium, can take on over £100m of debt and hope to make a go of it on League 1 turnover.

If Seneca and Co are to start afresh with a clean slate and sufficient 'investment' via their backers to have us operating moderately as a L1 club, surely that will mean a full restructure at board level, with new directors, signalling the end of the likes of Robert Coar. I am sure the two Ians will have done their homework with the necessary business plans and the fact that their backers are 'ready to go' implies that this, in fact, has already happened.

The last paragraph is the easy bit. The biggest hurdle of all will be getting Venky's to the table and convincing them that walking away is the sensible thing to do.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

There's a lot of self-aggrandisement going on here, and elsewhere, for some reason. You keep telling the board you're a professional (and?),  you've offered to work for the club for free in a senior position, that Seneca are worth very little and you've handled more money in your sleep. When I read stuff like this I normally think 'agenda' and being a 'professional' who has £48 in the bank I'm normally right.

You even posted a comment in the Trust thread bigging up BRAG as if it was some competition.

Cards on the table Dunn FC, what's your agenda?

First of all I've just had to look up that word, kudos! I think no disrespect intended by this but as a professional like Mercerman who I think got similar treatment we probably understand things in a better perspective dealing with similar day to day issues than your average fan would as we experience it allot so for me and work with various types day to day.  I try to shed light on things in a bit more detail, certainly not agenda driven at all but designed to perhaps assist with the understanding on the board in general, I think talking about the board that debate is good anyways and BRFCS recently is becoming busy again thanks to Glenns hardwork.

I wouldn't say senior or at the top, upper mid management which is certainly where I am within my own career path so I'm unlikely to take a drop in stature at my age! I offered to work free/minimum wage part time as I said 1/2 days a week as intriciscally I would just be pleased to help where I see myself as possibly being able too and I'd be satisfied by that as I could still live with my other three days work. So it'd be a pleasure, I think I said for a full time I'd take similar to my existing package so hardly driven!

On Seneca I'm putting it into context that so people can understand that it isn't a rare occurrence people exist like this that's all.

BRAG/ Trust / BRFCS/ Glen Mullan all I've been vocal about in the past, I even attend some club sessions as a rep by BRFCS so no competition, just pleased to see everyone uniting. I mean the board in general and all parties including posters themselves should be pleased it's a nice place to post and engage in. I mean six weeks ago Blueboy you tried classifying me as the "Wolf of Wall Street" before labelling me a racist, I'm sure by your own admission it's probably become allot calmer!

Quote

Casting doubts on Ian B using the Premier Lounge?

Casting doubts on his attendance at the Villa game just because you didn't see him?

Commenting on what you perceive to be IB's personal wealth?

Individually maybe small matters but why are you deliberately personalising your arguments by raising such doubts? They appear agenda driven.

Which begs the question again - why do you promote Jonathan Jackson as first choice Rovers CEO? I asked before but have seen no reply.

Not at all casting any doubt on lounges I've not said anything along those lines?

No I didn't see him at Villa unfortunately, maybe he was in Bburn end with Ian Currie? Certainly the words of my affect haven't casted doubt on Villa attendance or in any way meant that.

On wealth and things in general you surely have to take an instrument as such to measure suitability in one catogary especially this topic as drives allot of successes and failures? Christ thankfully I'm not a newspaper!!!!!!

I think you may have the wrong end of the stick here Asia, certainly no agenda but I'm not on that particular behind Ian bus because simply I have my own opinion and ok it's against the majority. That's life not everyone agrees.

I didn't promote as CEO, I know he is in that place at Wigan but I actually said Managing Director, that in seven years is the system we operate, our last CEO was John Williams. Jackson has a pretty good record at Wigan on the whole in terms of there own ambition to be sustainable, he's done some very good work at Wigan in five years there if you take a look. I acutally on another thread also suggested Matt Williams the current Burnley general manager which if you also look at the unprecedented role he performed at the Blackpool peak and subsequently there after as CEO of Shrewsbury and now the noises coming out of Burnley is worthy. Rovers in my experience under Venky's haven't appointed one person fit enough to being involved at this club, these guys are the right types and if pursed would no doubt have the interest of the club as no.1.

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Venkys will NEVER leave untill they get at least their initial investment back (at a minimum at least 20 million) which will never happen unless a rich owner comes in who is willing to splurge his wealth. Venkys are super rich billionaires and could easily start investing without making a dent in their deep pockets but they have no interest in football!

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Just now, tugayislegend said:

Venkys will NEVER leave untill they get at least their initial investment back (at a minimum at least 20 million) which will never happen unless a rich owner comes in who is willing to splurge his wealth. Venkys are super rich billionaires and could easily start investing without making a dent in their deep pockets but they have no interest in football!

Venkys have there investment back ten fold ,we are just like an old painting to them that they've thrown in a cupboard as there sick of looking at us. So what ever they get for us will be a bonus .

Ihave no doubt they are still trying to find a way of selling Brockhall.

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Just now, Dunnfc said:

First of all I've just had to look up that word, kudos! I think no disrespect intended by this but as a professional like Mercerman who I think got similar treatment we probably understand things in a better perspective dealing with similar day to day issues than your average fan would as we experience it allot so for me and work with various types day to day.  I try to shed light on things in a bit more detail, certainly not agenda driven at all but designed to perhaps assist with the understanding on the board in general, I think talking about the board that debate is good anyways and BRFCS recently is becoming busy again thanks to Glenns hardwork.

I wouldn't say senior or at the top, upper mid management which is certainly where I am within my own career path so I'm unlikely to take a drop in stature at my age! I offered to work free/minimum wage part time as I said 1/2 days a week as intriciscally I would just be pleased to help where I see myself as possibly being able too and I'd be satisfied by that as I could still live with my other three days work. So it'd be a pleasure, I think I said for a full time I'd take similar to my existing package so hardly driven!

On Seneca I'm putting it into context that so people can understand that it isn't a rare occurrence people exist like this that's all.

BRAG/ Trust / BRFCS/ Glen Mullan all I've been vocal about in the past, I even attend some club sessions as a rep by BRFCS so no competition, just pleased to see everyone uniting. I mean the board in general and all parties including posters themselves should be pleased it's a nice place to post and engage in. I mean six weeks ago Blueboy you tried classifying me as the "Wolf of Wall Street" before labelling me a racist, I'm sure by your own admission it's probably become allot calmer!

Not at all casting any doubt on lounges I've not said anything along those lines?

No I didn't see him at Villa unfortunately, maybe he was in Bburn end with Ian Currie? Certainly the words of my affect haven't casted doubt on Villa attendance or in any way meant that.

On wealth and things in general you surely have to take an instrument as such to measure suitability in one catogary especially this topic as drives allot of successes and failures? Christ thankfully I'm not a newspaper!!!!!!

I think you may have the wrong end of the stick here Asia, certainly no agenda but I'm not on that particular behind Ian bus because simply I have my own opinion and ok it's against the majority. That's life not everyone agrees.

I didn't promote as CEO, I know he is in that place at Wigan but I actually said Managing Director, that in seven years is the system we operate, our last CEO was John Williams. Jackson has a pretty good record at Wigan on the whole in terms of there own ambition to be sustainable, he's done some very good work at Wigan in five years there if you take a look. I acutally on another thread also suggested Matt Williams the current Burnley general manager which if you also look at the unprecedented role he performed at the Blackpool peak and subsequently there after as CEO of Shrewsbury and now the noises coming out of Burnley is worthy. Rovers in my experience under Venky's haven't appointed one person fit enough to being involved at this club, these guys are the right types and if pursed would no doubt have the interest of the club as no.1.

Mm, liquid lunches on a Friday afternoon. Not a good idea.

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Just now, Dunnfc said:

A bit derogatory. 9-5 Mon-Fri mate.

Will enjoy a few later though and this weekend, have a good one yourself.

 

Just now, Dunnfc said:

A bit derogatory. 9-5 Mon-Fri mate.

Will enjoy a few later though and this weekend, have a good one yourself.

My apologies. I was just going off the unusual number of spelling mistakes.  Just the two Peroni's for me these days.

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Just now, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

 

My apologies. I was just going off the unusual number of spelling mistakes.  Just the two Peroni's for me these days.

Hahaha! No problem, never was a speller! I'm the same as you two peronis later and that's me!

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4 hours ago, Dunnfc said:

Bar players sold which as you can see from the accounts has funded operational costs what have they asset stripped exactly? Club still appears to own ground, training and academy in its name.

how do you think this investment will come? Via a promise? No more than likely assets used as collateral and security's to obtain investment from partners in return granting partners with a fixed charge more than likely.

No one lends people money for nothing especially on something as insecure as this.

made millions? His company loans to others biggest appears 330 k. Seneca itself turns over 3.5 million with profits of just 435k.

to put that in perspective my last project portfolio which I managed compromised of 24 million pounds of yearly work and gross profits of around 3.5 million. 330k was probably just 1 interim monthly payment I made to a specific party. 

Hardly constitutes owning a club!

Best get you in touch with Andy Bayes and get you on the radio mate. You seem to have it all sorted . 

If only we'd known you were available we would never have got into this mess. 

Tongue in cheek mate you crack on.

personally I think you vastly underestimate these 2 Ian's . A colleague at work knew Currie socially from way back and says his specialism is "raising capital and floating companies on the stock market". You will know what that really means  better than anyone in your line of work I guess but it was put forward like that was a positive feather in his cap.

 

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6 hours ago, blueboy3333 said:

You seem to happy to keep repeating this for some reason. If you have an accusation to make, make it.

I agree, it's strange.

Battersby and Currie were invited to Pune by the Raos following a chance meeting at The Marriott Worsley with Balaji. Anderson was not a conduit although he was also present in Pune when the Ian's and the 'Pune 9' were too. There is no doubt that someone stuck the knife in at that point.

It is a fact that the Ian's know Jerome Anderson as they do Paul Stretford etc. , it's part of their job of looking after the financial affairs of high net worth individuals of which there are many within the football fraternity.

I really don't get the negativity, I know Batts is Rovers through and through, and that it goes back to traipsing round Shrewsbury, Mansfield, Rochdale and the like through the seventies and eighties.

What also goes un noticed is that he is extremely well connected within the world of football as a consequence of time spent with Kingsbridge and ISM. I have every faith that not only would they have the requisite finances in place, first and foremost they would have had a provisional management team and structure in place to enable them to attract the financial backing in the first place. It's a travesty that they weren't given the opportunity last summer.

Whilst Battersby and Currie would appear to be still prepared to keep batting, I'd keep the faith.

 

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Just now, darrenrover said:

Battersby and Currie were invited to Pune by the Raos following a chance meeting at The Marriott Worsley with Balaji. Anderson was not a conduit although he was also present in Pune when the Ian's and the 'Pune 9' were too.

It does seem very strange that Dunn FC is insistent that JA arranged the meeting. I'm glad you've cleared it up and actually added some detail rather than making baseless accusations.

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Dunn fc is quite right to be sceptical about the two Ian's. The Seneca interest has never made the slightest bit of sense. It doesnt matter if you're the longest standing Rovers fan in the World, if you havent got the money to buy the Club and perhaps more importantly service any ongoing losses then you're not much use as a potential owner.

The two Ian's clearly don't have the sort of money required and if you were a wealthy individual who was a client of Seneca with no interest in Blackburn Rovers why would you have the remotest interest in investing in the Club? Not only are you going to see a nil percent return on your investment there must be a very high chance of losing your capital altogether. Who's going to go for that? For better or for worse if anyone is to take us over surely it has to be someone utilising their own money not someone at the mercy of individual investors expecting a return.

The only thing that provides a chink of optimism regarding the Seneca interest is that when I was looking at the Seneca Partners website Jack's son in law and former director Richard Matthewman is listed as a director. Is he the real brains and financial muscle behind the operation? That would start to make a bit of sense if he was trying to get the club back and put things right and be theoretically doable if he had (and was willing to commit) the sort of money available. But if so, why is he keeping such a low profile?

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Ian Battersby and Ian Currie are both Rovers fans. He has said he would look to buy and turn the financial side of the club around. He has specialise department with Seneca to do this. 

We have been poorly run financially. Rovers wage bill has been too high for a number of years plus some of the transfers fees/wages paid under Shebby was totally inresponsible and wasted money. 

I think it would be a Seneca investment not a Battersby/Currie buy. 

Lets not forget Ian Currie has football experience when he was Bolton director. 

Is Richard Matthewman even interest in Rovers or what gone on in 6 years? 

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Just now, chaddyrovers said:

Ian Battersby and Ian Currie are both Rovers fans. He has said he would look to buy and turn the financial side of the club around. He has specialise department with Seneca to do this. 

We have been poorly run financially. Rovers wage bill has been too high for a number of years plus some of the transfers fees/wages paid under Shebby was totally inresponsible and wasted money. 

I think it would be a Seneca investment not a Battersby/Currie buy. 

Lets not forget Ian Currie has football experience when he was Bolton director. 

Is Richard Matthewman even interest in Rovers or what gone on in 6 years? 

I dont think you've actually properly read a word I put in my post chaddy.

Seneca supposedly handle the affairs of high net worth individuals. In what way does Blackburn Rovers constitute a legitimate "investment."?

Was not aware of Currie's previous involvment with Bolton but given the mess they ended up in is that necessarily a ringing endorsement?

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