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Pete1981

Venkys London Ltd accounts

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Pretty much more of the same. Losing over a million £ a month. There will be another £10 million hole to fill this season which was covered by players sales in these accounts.

Duplication of pages 34 and 35 on the co house document, attention to detail! 

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Just now, OJRovers said:

Pretty much more of the same. Losing over a million £ a month. There will be another £10 million hole to fill this season which was covered by players sales in these accounts.

Duplication of pages 34 and 35 on the co house document, attention to detail! 

Where does it say that? 

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8 hours ago, OJRovers said:

 

Duplication of pages 34 and 35 on the co house document, attention to detail! 

Also page 35, section 28. A reference to MRS Balaji Rao!!

That's what he's been spending all his money on.

Edited by Crimpshrine

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29 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Where does it say that? 

The cash flow for the year to 31 Mar 17 included over £10million of cash received from player sales (Duffy, Marshall, etc). This covered most of the £16million operating cash loss.

Assuming the wages go down a bit this season, but revenue plummets even more, with cash spent on Dack etc the operating loss is likely to be the same, so £16 million(ish) cash to find. They’ve already put it a few million in share capital, but massive gap remains.

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26 minutes ago, OJRovers said:

The cash flow for the year to 31 Mar 17 included over £10million of cash received from player sales (Duffy, Marshall, etc). This covered most of the £16million operating cash loss.

Assuming the wages go down a bit this season, but revenue plummets even more, with cash spent on Dack etc the operating loss is likely to be the same, so £16 million(ish) cash to find. They’ve already put it a few million in share capital, but massive gap remains.

I did some guesstimates earlier in the year and suspect we're on track to lose more like £5m-£7m this year (before player trading) versus last year's £18m loss (before player trading). Still not great, and huge losses by League 1 standards, but I suspect Venky's isn't as troubled by such losses compared to the £30m+ losses of yesteryear... Obviously still not a sustainable business, but few football clubs really are.

The likes of Dack, Smallwood, Whittingham, etc. cost a fair bit by League 1 standards, but they probably still represent a decline in average wages relative to the Championship. Relegation clauses and Lowe, Akpan, Guthrie, Henley, etc. leaving should drop our wages a fair bit. Net transfer spend was probably under a £1m after Steele's sale.

As you said, largely same old, same old, but, somewhat perversely, I'd contend League 1 isn't the gargantuan money loser that Championship football has become. Dropping from the Championship to League 1 isn't as dramatic as the end of parachute payments.

The accounts have the same assurance that Venky's has sufficient funds to cover the next 12 months "regardless of whether [the Bank of India financing facility] is renewed at March 2018", etc, etc. No significant change in the overall predicament, as far as I can see at least.

Turnover down £5.7m; wages and operating expenses down £6.5m = a reduced net operating loss, hurray!...

edit: re: non-Venky's debt, overdraft is still at 2.65% + LIBOR, while the 'other loan' of £1.8m that we were paying 8.6% on was paid off in April. Doesn't look like any additional loans were needed, unlike when that £400k at 14% loan was needed in 15/16 (and paid off back in June 2016). These accounts won't have anything on any active loans we've taken on after that.

Edited by RoverCanada

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We are still on a financial tightrope and you'd think another large dollop of share capital will be needed in Jan/Feb or a big sale or two unless they go down the high interest loan route again.

I wouldn't expect much in Jan apart from maybe a loan in covered by one out or more pruning.

Still an incredible number of 'employees' on the payroll despite the shrinking nature of the club and cutbacks made ;)

Edited by tomphil

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4 minutes ago, tomphil said:

We are still on a financial tightrope and you'd think another large dollop of share capital will be needed in Jan/Feb or a big sale or two unless they go down the high interest loan route again.

I wouldn't expect much in Jan apart from maybe a loan in covered by one out or more pruning.

I don't see us selling anyone of note. it wouldn't make sense half way through the season after not doing so last summer. 

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40 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I don't see us selling anyone of note. it wouldn't make sense half way through the season after not doing so last summer. 

Hope not but it didn't make sense selling 30+ mill of players in quick succession reinvesting virtually nothing and ending up relegated but it happened and it maybe had to.

Edited by tomphil

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Just now, tomphil said:

Hope not but it didn't make sense selling 30+ mill of players in quick succession and ending up relegated but it happened and it maybe had to.

No, but as Bob Dylan once sang "the times they are a changin'" ;) 

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Our costs are more than double our incoming before player sales. That’s worse than the previous 2 years, not good at all. Have we sold anyone since this? I can’t remember but if we can’t generate this kind of money through player sales the position is just going to get worse by the year. The implications of failing to go up this year are huge. I suppose we knew that anyway though,.

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To be honest its been largely the same picture for the last 5 years. The only time financial performance has really looked remotely sustainable has been when they sold the crown jewels and didn't reinvest the proceeds into new players and the result of that was a place in the 3rd division.

Its the same old stuff over again in the accounts. Venkys don't seem in any sort of hurry to rectify it by leaving or selling the club.

The wage bill is the real killer. I suspect there are a lot of Championship clubs spending less on wages than we are in League One. Even the likes of Cardiff and Bristol City going for automatic promotion I would be surprised if they were spending even close to what we are on salaries.

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Wage to turnover 140% +

However taxation and social security payments reduced by over 2m

Media contribution to turnover reduced by over 5 m. We're parachute payments still in 2016 account?

Different figure on page 35 duplicate for player trading since march 2017 changes from received to paid out

191 m taxable loss tucked away to offset against any taxable future profit bottom page 26

Bank overdraft increased to nearly 14m

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1 hour ago, JHRover said:

I wonder how many of our League One rivals possess wage bills of £22 million per year.....

I think ours may have gone down a bit in the summer... but to answer your question none, which is why Mowbray knows he has to get promotion.

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1 hour ago, JHRover said:

Even the likes of Cardiff and Bristol City going for automatic promotion I would be surprised if they were spending even close to what we are on salaries.

How do you know? Who are our big earners now, and what type of weekly wages are we talking? 

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2 hours ago, JHRover said:

Even the likes of Cardiff and Bristol City going for automatic promotion I would be surprised if they were spending even close to what we are on salaries.

Took a look out of curiosity.

Bristol City spent £17.9m in 16/17 on wages and salaries (on £14.3m in turnover...), and that team struggled. Looks like they had a net transfer spend of £7m+ this past transfer window, so that's likely to have risen. Good on them for their early form, but hardly an example of prudent finances. And not to call them out, as this is the norm in the Championship.

Cardiff's 16/17 accounts aren't out yet, but they were spending £25.4m on wages in 15/16 (down from £30.8m the year before). Somewhat similar trajectory as us financially as their parachute payments are running out/have run out too. Turnover was £37.6m in 14/15, £31.4m in 15/16. A wage-to-turnover ratio less than 100% is impressive by Championship standards (chart below, which actually has Cardiff at 101%, so might be a mix-up), but they lost £10m that year. 

Would certainly be interesting to know what Rovers are spending on wages now. A little cash was splashed in the summer, but it was a relatively small amount compared to what teams are having to spend in the Championship these days.

I thought to check a couple comparisons: Wolves in 13-14 and Wigan in 15-16. Both similar to Rovers in being teams that had somewhat recently been in the Premier League, so were "used" to higher wages, and then tumbled to League 1. Both also ended up getting automatic promotion, partly due to being willing to spend a little bit in League 1 (amidst many outgoings too) - Wolves had ~£3m of incomings; Wigan £1m+.

Wolves' wage costs dropped from £31.1m to £20.5m. Wigan saw their wage costs drop from £26m to £11.9m.

It'd purely be speculation as to the relegation clauses Rovers' players had, but those two examples suggest we're spending more like £10m-£14m this year. Certainly still exorbitant by League 1 standards, but I'd again suggest we may be on 'stabler' financial footing in League 1 compared to our years in the Championship.

Edited by RoverCanada

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29 minutes ago, Suhail Slayer said:

I wonder how much Suhail gets paid along with his expenses

Just now, Suhail Slayer said:

the clubs highest earner though

 

Kentaro employee pre takeover and here the whole 7

forgive and forget.... tis the season and all that

carry on

So, do you know how much he is paid, or don't you? 

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1 hour ago, Suhail Slayer said:

no but safe to say the only person with power at the club is paid well by the stakeholders.

Who knows. You claimed he wast he highest paid, so I thought you actually knew something. I stand corrected. 

Edited by Bigdoggsteel

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24 minutes ago, Suhail Slayer said:

no but safe to say the only person with power at the club is paid well by the stakeholders.

The owners AND many stakeholders ;)

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8 hours ago, Biz said:

Probably a fraction of the wages we are still paying Dixon Etuhu et al?

He was still being paid in the 16/17 season by Rovers - from a reliable source.

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