[Archived] THE BATTLE FOR PROMOTION....WON.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

7 hours ago, Tom said:

Bennett was brilliant at the back end of last season, I thought in central midfield he’d dominate this league and score quite a few but after a shaky start he’s been brilliant in every role asked of him. 

Yeah he's been a stalwart for us this season where ever he's played. I still have nightmares about that chance he had at Oldham when he put the ball into the side net of a gaping open goal.

[TBTF]

21 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Yeah I agree he was given a tough hand to play last summer. I think one or two were got in early in case better players he may have had his eye on wouldn't become available.

Dack,    brilliant signing, he's been a real breath of fresh air. Can he make the step up ? I think he can but obviously he'll be closely marked by and large by better, quicker players than this season.

Samuel, started off ok but lost his way and his position in the team. He's never going to be a finisher and he's only just realised that he could be on his way if he doesn't shape up. Can he make the step up ? I doubt it.

Smallwood,    had a great first half of the season, second half not so good. Can he make the step up ? On his first half season showing yes, on the second half not really.

Gladwin,       I haven't seen enough of him to comment but my gut instinct says he may be on his way.

Caddis,   Signed as a squad player. Not one for next season.

Downing,    he's done ok at this level but I think he might be found out next season. Not a bad sub centre half I suppose but Wharton and Platt are very promising and need to be given a chance at some point.

Whittingham,   given the length of contract he's got I think we've dropped a real clanger. Not good enough for this league, never mind the next.

Hart,     I don't get why he was signed.

Harper,     same as Hart, strange signing.

Chapman,    he looked a talent even if he was a bit raw from a football intelligence point of view. Sorry but I don't think we'll see him again in a blue and white shirt.

Bell, too early to say but it makes me wonder if he can't displace Williams. Obviously other judges rate him so let's see next season.

Armstrong,  has blown a bit hot and cold. Everybody knows he's not a winger. When's he's played nearer the front and got some decent service he's looked a threat. My gut instinct says he may not come back although I'd take him on loan again. I don't think we could afford his fee for a permanent transfer.

Antonnson, not for me, he lacks physicality, aggression and a bit of pace. I'm just glad he came on loan and he can go back to Leeds.

I have missed any out ? As you can see a real mixed bag, more than half of those players never really established themselves in the first team.

Edit, yes I missed one out  - Payne - I was thrilled when he came on loan. I'd seen him play for Oxford and he looked a real player. I could see he was signed as cover for Dack but I think a player of his ability should be able to play in more than one position. Looks like I was wrong and he's not really thrived at Ewood. The juries out as to wether we'll see him again next season.

Agree with that assessment Tyrone.

Out of that list there's only really Dack that you would go mad to keep in a higher league. You could possibly make a case for Armstrong but he didn't cut it at Bolton and we seem to want to play him in broadly the same position that they did. You could also make a case for Chapman but in reality we have seen too little of him and the type and extent of injury he's had worries me greatly. If Bell really was all that , then surely he would have been able to command a place in our team this season. He hasn't looked anything special tbh.

Promotion from a league we should never have been in is hardly open top bus material but to be fair to all concerned that was the task for this year and they look like they have delivered on it.

It's not raining on anybody's bonfire however to cast a fretful eye on what happens next season based on the Loon's track record. Unless they commit very decent funds (in both transfer fees and contracts) then we will be  struggling royally to compete in the Championship. The minute I start hearing FFP as a reason we cant spend freely the alarm bells will be ringing for me because frankly with our gates and resources we will be at Poundstretcher for the rest of our days if that's the case  and ultimately that will consign us to the nether regions of League One/Two not long into our future.

So  relative success this year puts us back in a telling situation again this Summer . On the field, the feel good factor  has rightly been enjoyed this year but there are still plenty of fault lines in our structure and  general health of the Club .

Another big Summer for Venkys and anybody with a brain cell would therefore be rightly cautious.

[Bbrovers2288]

Just now, TBTF said:

Agree with that assessment Tyrone.

Out of that list there's only really Dack that you would go mad to keep in a higher league. You could possibly make a case for Armstrong but he didn't cut it at Bolton and we seem to want to play him in broadly the same position that they did. You could also make a case for Chapman but in reality we have seen too little of him and the type and extent of injury he's had worries me greatly. If Bell really was all that , then surely he would have been able to command a place in our team this season. He hasn't looked anything special tbh.

Promotion from a league we should never have been in is hardly open top bus material but to be fair to all concerned that was the task for this year and they look like they have delivered on it.

It's not raining on anybody's bonfire however to cast a fretful eye on what happens next season based on the Loon's track record. Unless they commit very decent funds (in both transfer fees and contracts) then we will be  struggling royally to compete in the Championship. The minute I start hearing FFP as a reason we cant spend freely the alarm bells will be ringing for me because frankly with our gates and resources we will be at Poundstretcher for the rest of our days if that's the case  and ultimately that will consign us to the nether regions of League One/Two not long into our future.

So  relative success this year puts us back in a telling situation again this Summer . On the field, the feel good factor  has rightly been enjoyed this year but there are still plenty of fault lines in our structure and  general health of the Club .

Another big Summer for Venkys and anybody with a brain cell would therefore be rightly cautious.

Good post 

[Bigdoggsteel]

As positives we have a good manager and  CEO off the field. First summer in an age we have that 

[Mike E]

Bought tix for the Oxford game

[scotchrover]

2 hours ago, TBTF said:

Agree with that assessment Tyrone.

Out of that list there's only really Dack that you would go mad to keep in a higher league. You could possibly make a case for Armstrong but he didn't cut it at Bolton and we seem to want to play him in broadly the same position that they did. You could also make a case for Chapman but in reality we have seen too little of him and the type and extent of injury he's had worries me greatly. If Bell really was all that , then surely he would have been able to command a place in our team this season. He hasn't looked anything special tbh.

Promotion from a league we should never have been in is hardly open top bus material but to be fair to all concerned that was the task for this year and they look like they have delivered on it.

It's not raining on anybody's bonfire however to cast a fretful eye on what happens next season based on the Loon's track record. Unless they commit very decent funds (in both transfer fees and contracts) then we will be  struggling royally to compete in the Championship. The minute I start hearing FFP as a reason we cant spend freely the alarm bells will be ringing for me because frankly with our gates and resources we will be at Poundstretcher for the rest of our days if that's the case  and ultimately that will consign us to the nether regions of League One/Two not long into our future.

So  relative success this year puts us back in a telling situation again this Summer . On the field, the feel good factor  has rightly been enjoyed this year but there are still plenty of fault lines in our structure and  general health of the Club .

Another big Summer for Venkys and anybody with a brain cell would therefore be rightly cautious.

Completely agree- Waggott was brought in to mark the club self-sufficient though wasn’t he? I’m worried he’ll use that excuse in summer, to avoid us signing anyone for money. If I was Venky’s, I’d be ignored the money rules next season, like so many other clubs have, and splashing the cash to go for back-to-back promotions.

Even if money isn’t made available, there are teams that have been promoted, spent nothing and done okay. Look at Preston- they’ve sold, sold and sold some more since going back up, and they’re doing okay. 

[AAK]

2 hours ago, TBTF said:

Agree with that assessment Tyrone.

Out of that list there's only really Dack that you would go mad to keep in a higher league. You could possibly make a case for Armstrong but he didn't cut it at Bolton and we seem to want to play him in broadly the same position that they did. You could also make a case for Chapman but in reality we have seen too little of him and the type and extent of injury he's had worries me greatly. If Bell really was all that , then surely he would have been able to command a place in our team this season. He hasn't looked anything special tbh.

Promotion from a league we should never have been in is hardly open top bus material but to be fair to all concerned that was the task for this year and they look like they have delivered on it.

It's not raining on anybody's bonfire however to cast a fretful eye on what happens next season based on the Loon's track record. Unless they commit very decent funds (in both transfer fees and contracts) then we will be  struggling royally to compete in the Championship. The minute I start hearing FFP as a reason we cant spend freely the alarm bells will be ringing for me because frankly with our gates and resources we will be at Poundstretcher for the rest of our days if that's the case  and ultimately that will consign us to the nether regions of League One/Two not long into our future.

So  relative success this year puts us back in a telling situation again this Summer . On the field, the feel good factor  has rightly been enjoyed this year but there are still plenty of fault lines in our structure and  general health of the Club .

Another big Summer for Venkys and anybody with a brain cell would therefore be rightly cautious.

Waggott has already said in respect of next season they have to be mindful of FFP. 

[Athlete]

Just now, AAK said:

Waggott has already said in respect of next season they have to be mindful of FFP. 

Ready made excuse 

[AAK]

Just now, Athlete said:

Ready made excuse 

You'd think so mate yes. Not ideal when we need to sign at least half a team again, and this time on championship quality fees and wages. 

[Tony Rover]

11 minutes ago, AAK said:

You'd think so mate yes. Not ideal when we need to sign at least half a team again, and this time on championship quality fees and wages. 

Not always the case, just look at Millwall and Sheffield Utd. Lets just concentrate on getting out of this league which will hopefully be tomorrow night! If we’re in the championship next season which I firmly believe we will, I think we’ll more than hold our own. 

[Sparks Rover]

43 minutes ago, AAK said:

Waggott has already said in respect of next season they have to be mindful of FFP. 

Yeah like Wolves were.....very mindful 

[Butty]

20 hours ago, 47er said:

What then of Phil Parkinson? He took Bolton back up to the Championship at the first time of asking. Now they are in danger of relegation and crowds have drifted away.

Is he a good manger for having taken them up or a bad one for putting them in a relegation scrap?

Things are not as simple as you make out.

Well he did well to get them back up just as Mowbray has done here. The fact that Bolton are in a relegation scrap doesn't make him a bad manager. At the start of the season their aim would have been to try and beat the drop and they are currently outside the bottom three yet still in big danger of going down, looking at their squad on paper it is undoubtedly one of if not the worst in the league, if Parkinson manages to keep that Bolton side up he's done a great job. If they go down, I wouldn't be too critical of him. Depending on how this summer goes transfer wise will determine our expectations for next season and Mowbray will be judged accordingly. As it stands though, Mowbray has done well since taking over. So unlucky not to have kept us up last season and he's took us back up this season. I hope he carries on in the same vein next season and right now, I'm confident he will.

[AllRoverAsia]

1 hour ago, AAK said:

Waggott has already said in respect of next season they have to be mindful of FFP. 

As soon as promotion is certain Venkys can put as much cash as they want, no limit, into the Club outside of any current/future FFP rules.

This has to be done by 30th June 2018 as after this date they, if promoted, formally become a Championship Club....until then we are L1 and under L1 rules

The funds can be spent whenever and however the Club decide.

No need to do a Wolves, Leicester or QPR and Waggot and Venkys know this.

I am not for a moment suggesting they will fund a massive push up the Championship next season, just that they can if they want.

[Bigdoggsteel]

1 hour ago, AAK said:

You'd think so mate yes. Not ideal when we need to sign at least half a team again, and this time on championship quality fees and wages. 

It's not that black and white. No reason why we won't do well with a bit of tweaking here and there. Under 23s flying it as well. Great potential in the squad 

[Fraserkirky]

16 minutes ago, AllRoverAsia said:

As soon as promotion is certain Venkys can put as much cash as they want, no limit, into the Club outside of any current/future FFP rules.

This has to be done by 30th June 2018 as after this date they, if promoted, formally become a Championship Club....until then we are L1 and under L1 rules

The funds can be spent whenever and however the Club decide.

No need to do a Wolves, Leicester or QPR and Waggot and Venkys know this.

I am not for a moment suggesting they will fund a massive push up the Championship next season, just that they can if they want.

15m would go along way added to the current squad.

As I said in another thread, Venkys only chance to make some of there money back is to make a return to the premiership. If they have been putting all this money in just to keep us going then maybe they could spend some more to try to get their money back. 15m investment in transfer budget is better money spent than clearing debt. At least they would be giving it a shot.... We wish

 

[AllRoverAsia]

8 minutes ago, Fraserkirky said:

15m would go along way added to the current squad.

As I said in another thread, Venkys only chance to make some of there money back is to make a return to the premiership. If they have been putting all this money in just to keep us going then maybe they could spend some more to try to get their money back. 15m investment in transfer budget is better money spent than clearing debt. At least they would be giving it a shot.... We wish

 

I am hoping that they have been advised to give it a big push and as you rightly say only in the PL have they any chance of clearing debt which including the money they have put into shares is I understand currently some way over £200 mil. In total.

Could this be behind TMs bounce through the Championship? IF we get there.

It's the hope that kills.

[Fraserkirky]

Venkys have plenty money. 

They could/will do whatever they are advised.

[darrenrover]

3 hours ago, AAK said:

Waggott has already said in respect of next season they have to be mindful of FFP. 

Has Waggott asked Wolves why FFP isn't apparently a problem for them?

 

Edit: Apologies, already mentioned.

[Bigdoggsteel]

8 hours ago, darrenrover said:

Has Waggott asked Wolves why FFP isn't apparently a problem for them?

 

Edit: Apologies, already mentioned.

Pretty simple. They gambled on going up. Now they are in the premiership, they will avoid any punishment for now. QPR got off with it a few years ago too. 

But for every wolves is a villa, Sheffield Wednesday, Derby. All in trouble if they miss out again. 

[Hasta]

If they wouldn't spend money for the last few years in the Championship - in fact made sure that they actually gained money through transfer dealings by selling high value players - why does anyone think they will have a change of heart now.

If we sell Dack they might spend a few million. Otherwise it will be £500k here etc...

 

[bob fleming]

1 minute ago, Hasta said:

If they wouldn't spend money for the last few years in the Championship - in fact made sure that they actually gained money through transfer dealings by selling high value players - why does anyone think they will have a change of heart now.

If we sell Dack they might spend a few million. Otherwise it will be £500k here etc...

It could be the accountants that came in last summer? I mean that will have cost a pretty penny. As MG says above and others have said - and what has been bleedingly obvious to every single fan for some time (without the need for said accountants) - the only way they'll get anywhere near to getting their money back is by getting into the top flight and staying there for a while. West Brom will net something like £94million for coming last this season. It's changed since we were last there.

Then again who knows what will happen. The latest BRFCS podcast talks a lot about the finances (philipl), well worth a listen, but I gave up trying to second guess this lot a long time ago.

Anyway. Let's get the job done tonight! Enjoy it those that can make it. I'll have to settle for Charlton on Saturday when hopefully we're already up. 

[blueboy3333]

1 hour ago, MGPensioner said:

Yep, TM said last year that the intention was to bounce through the Championship. 

It was met with scepticism (not least by me) but looking back you have to presume this plan had been discussed and agreed with the owners.

You can't imagine that TM wouldn't have fully explained to them what was necessary for such a promotion push so I am quietly hopeful that we will see investment.

And you have to say he isn't the sort to be saying such things if he doesn't believe it will happen. No porkie pies or BS man routines from Tony to date. Just straight honest integrity.

Getting back to the PL is the only way they get their money back AND so they can say "I told you so", save face, walk away, tell the snowball throwing peasants to "feck off and see how you get on with out our rupees", etc, etc.

On  the other hand, it's the hope that kills as you say, so we will just have to wait and see.

I don't think he ever said it was the 'intention' to bounce through the Chanpionship, he just raised it as a possibility. It was around the time he was making daft statements and putting  pressure on himself (i'm not much of coach if we don't go up etc). It would be interesting to see the exact quote but i don't remember thinking he was privy to some great Venky spending splurge plans. 

[JHRover]

13 hours ago, Butty said:

Well he did well to get them back up just as Mowbray has done here. The fact that Bolton are in a relegation scrap doesn't make him a bad manager. At the start of the season their aim would have been to try and beat the drop and they are currently outside the bottom three yet still in big danger of going down, looking at their squad on paper it is undoubtedly one of if not the worst in the league, if Parkinson manages to keep that Bolton side up he's done a great job. If they go down, I wouldn't be too critical of him. Depending on how this summer goes transfer wise will determine our expectations for next season and Mowbray will be judged accordingly. As it stands though, Mowbray has done well since taking over. So unlucky not to have kept us up last season and he's took us back up this season. I hope he carries on in the same vein next season and right now, I'm confident he will.

Difference with Bolton is twofold. Number 1 there are questions over whether Parkinson is actually a Championship level manager - his previous stints at Hull City and Charlton in the 2nd division were failures - and his win record at Bolton this season is awful. In Mowbray we have a manager with a fairly good track record in the Championship having won it with WBA, had Middlesbrough pushing for the play-offs and very nearly keeping us up last year. Number 2 Bolton haven't got two pennies to rub together, so Parkinson will probably have done a good job if he manages to haul them to safety this season. So long as Venkys allow SOME spending in the summer we will have a bigger budget than them and thus in theory a better chance of survival. You would hope having backed Mowbray to the tune of £1 million in the summer to get us out of League One plus the wages of the likes of Whittingham that some money would be available in the summer.

[JHRover]

If you listen to the likes of Neil Harris and Chris Wilder they are clearly of the view that they and their clubs have as just as much right as anyone to be pushing for promotion in the Championship, the fact that they were in League One last season rarely gets mentioned. Wilder has already been critical of his players as it seems the play-offs are going to slip away. They've had an excellent season, and haven't spent big money in doing it, yet they are still looking upwards rather than back-slapping because they've survived.

Mowbray is quite right to set his stall out to do more than merely survive as a Championship club. To get up from the Championship you need a plan and a winning mentality, not accepting survival as your end target and exist to achieve that and no more. Of course going up from League One the main concern is to achieve survival but more can be done without the need for parachute money or major investment. Cardiff, Preston, Brentford, Millwall, Bristol City, Sheffield United - all clubs who have got up there without big spending most of whom were in League One very recently.

[Mike E]

20 minutes ago, JHRover said:

If you listen to the likes of Neil Harris and Chris Wilder they are clearly of the view that they and their clubs have as just as much right as anyone to be pushing for promotion in the Championship, the fact that they were in League One last season rarely gets mentioned. Wilder has already been critical of his players as it seems the play-offs are going to slip away. They've had an excellent season, and haven't spent big money in doing it, yet they are still looking upwards rather than back-slapping because they've survived.

Mowbray is quite right to set his stall out to do more than merely survive as a Championship club. To get up from the Championship you need a plan and a winning mentality, not accepting survival as your end target and exist to achieve that and no more. Of course going up from League One the main concern is to achieve survival but more can be done without the need for parachute money or major investment. Cardiff, Preston, Brentford, Millwall, Bristol City, Sheffield United - all clubs who have got up there without big spending most of whom were in League One very recently.

Reminiscent of Hughesy in 2005:

'Right lads, we stayed up. Next season: Europe!'